Bad Chi Sao has ruined WC as a fighting art!

[Danny T]

The main point is there are many effective counters to "arm drag". If you don't train in WC sticky hands, when will you train it?

Well in my wing chun training we do train such. Just not from the chi sao platform.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In WC sticky hands, you may let your opponent's arm to touch your arm too easily. You should also train the situation that

- you don't want your opponent to touch your arm, but you want to touch his arm whenever you want to.

How to avoid arm contact? The answer can be as simple as to rotate your arm the same direction as your opponent's arm is rotating.

 

[wckf92]

I don't know about boxing, but grapplers do shrimp against an opponent exactly the way they do in the drill. It's a fundamental movement that, like a sit out drill, translates directly to movement in a match.

If you're looking for attribute development, maybe something like Ginastica Natural is more analogous to chi sau.

A fair point. Thanks.
I guess I was thinking back to when I was learning grappling and we used to do these ridiculously long shrimp drills up and down the floor. hahaha.

 

[ShortBridge]

How about skipping rope? As in:

"wck92 throws a hard left, but shortbridge counters with some rope skipping!"

 

[geezer]

You don't see arm drags much because if you are attempting an arm drag from sticky hands you will have crossed the line and have committed your 2 hands onto the opponent's one arm. If you can do an arm drag from within chi sao the other person is terrible in chi sao. In the example photo Red Shirt should isn't sticking while Green Shirt has committed both hands to one arm. IF Red was sticking with his left he would simply punch Green in the face while his left arm/elbow position would have prevented Green from being able to reach under his rights upper arm.

...Further response to John Wang's post #29 about arm-drags in chi-sau. We also train arm drags and counters in other drills. But, as you said Danny, your posture and positioning in chi-sau does not set up an arm drag. In fact it makes a striking counter likely when you commit two arms to one. Check out this clip by Stephan Kesting talking about arm drag counters while working from an upright posture that is very unlike a wrestler's stance and maybe (kinda-sorta) like the upright posture used training chi-sau:

Now just swap Kesting's term "judo chop" for "fak-sau" or even "biu-sau" and you'll see my point.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know about boxing, but grapplers do shrimp against an opponent exactly the way they do in the drill. It's a fundamental movement that, like a sit out drill, translates directly to movement in a match.

If you're looking for attribute development, maybe something like Ginastica Natural is more analogous to chi sau.

Yeah. A contested drill that isn't application is kind of a unique one.

 

[ShortBridge]

A) Is he wearing a Star Trek uniform?
B) That is a very awkward position that black shirt guy is putting himself in.

I'm not advocating for or against integrating something like a lop Sao into this drill, but I don't think that I would do it like that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Now just swap Kesting's term "judo chop" for "fak-sau" or even "biu-sau" and you'll see my point.

Of course when you uses both hands to deal with one of your opponent's arms, his free arm can do a lot of things to you.

How to solve this problem?

You use

1. Octopus strategy - left hand to grab on your opponent's right wrist, right hand to grab on his left wrist.
2. Arm tucking - right hand to guide his left arm under his own right arm.

If you free your right hand (on your opponent's left wrist), and apply arm drag at that moment, his left arm won't be fast enough to do anything on you.

There are many effective counters against "arm drag". The "Judo chop" is not one of those.

Arm tucking:

Octopus strategy:

The easiest arm drag counter.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

...Further response to John Wang's post #29 about arm-drags in chi-sau. ...

Something is missing in your clip and that is to control your opponent's left free arm first.

Common sense tell us if you:

1. control your opponent's arms, your opponent can't punch you.
2. guide your opponent's arm away from your entering path, when you enter, his arm can't give you any trouble.
3. guide your opponent's arm to jam his other arm, you can use one arm to control both of his arms. This will free one of your arms.

You have 2 arms. Your opponent also has 2 arms. If you use 2 on 1, you will need to take care of that free arm first. So before you try to do 2 on 1, you have to do something else first.

In the following clip, he guides his opponent's left arm to jam the right arm. This way, he can free his left hand and do his thing.

 

[hunschuld]

...Further response to John Wang's post #29 about arm-drags in chi-sau. We also train arm drags and counters in other drills. But, as you said Danny, your posture and positioning in chi-sau does not set up an arm drag. In fact it makes a striking counter likely when you commit two arms to one. Check out this clip by Stephan Kesting talking about arm drag counters while working from an upright posture that is very unlike a wrestler's stance and maybe (kinda-sorta) like the upright posture used training chi-sau:

Now just swap Kesting's term "judo chop" for "fak-sau" or even "biu-sau" and you'll see my point.

Geezer good to see you. I started this thread on your suggestion.

Going to disagree with arm drag in chi sau. You can set the arm drag when you are in double fook or in single fook. You must be stepping to the outside of the arm you are dragging or shift to the outside of the arm. The elbow of the fook controls the opponents tan and you are moving to onside pulling an arm in front of you thus neutralizing the arm not dragged. Your position puts you in a perfect place to attack the leg on the side of the drag. KFW is showing something like this in his post above.

The issue in your clip is the footwork of the man in black. Based on his footwork he should be dragging the opposite arm. Footwork is most important for the 2 on 1 to work . In this video he is dragging the wrong arm.

 

[geezer]

The issue in your clip is the footwork of the man in black. Based on his footwork he should be dragging the opposite arm. Footwork is most important for the 2 on 1 to work . In this video he is dragging the wrong arm.

His footwork, at least from what you can infer based on his body movement, is pretty standard stuff from a wrestler´s perspective. His objective is to move inside and gain position at your back where he has what one coach I knew called a "plethora of options".

The more typical Ip Man Wing Chun objective is to gain position and control center primarily for striking, kicking, and lastly sweeping or throwing. Different objectives mandate different strategies.

 

[hunschuld]

The more typical Ip Man Wing Chun objective is to gain position and control center primarily for striking, kicking, and lastly sweeping or throwing. Different objectives mandate different strategies.[/QUOTE]

This may be part of the reason people in the videos I posted were unable to perform basic chi sao skills in a more adversarial situation.
For me I want to control the center of gravity and attack through the center. Fighting for control of the center almost has to lead to what we see in the videos.We prefer to receive and then redirect energy and get to a side body position if possible or if in the center we want to turn either our body or the opponents body.

Best place to be in the back. I have 2 arms he has none. At side I have 2 he has 1 so again I have a big advantage but in center we both have 2 arms so no one has an advantage but stronger person will have an advantage if everything else equal so this leads to what we see in video 1.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but in center we both have 2 arms so no one has an advantage ...

In center if your arms are

- on top, and
- inside,

you will have advantage.

When your arm are

- on top, you have the weight advantage.
- inside, you can separate your opponent's arms away from his head.

 

[hunschuld]

In center if your arms are

- on top, and
- inside,

you will have advantage.

When your arm are

- on top, you have the weight advantage.
- inside, you can separate your opponent's arms away from his head.

2 arms on 2 arms no advantage vs 2 arms vs 1 arm.

Not true

What you are talking about is who has better skill. You are trying to do something to me I am trying to do something to you. If one is on top the other doesn't just stop moving and leave them there they try to do something it becomes a matter of training and skill and sometimes just innate advantage. You are faster than I am You have an advantage I can use my hips better than you can I have an advantage.

The point is if I can use 2 hands and you can only use one I can control your one and have a free hand to do something unopposed . If we are facing 2 on 2 I have to do more to control and clear a path for attacking and have to deal with more possibilities from you when defending. Getting to the outside or the back is always an advantage. It always limits the opponents possibilities

 

[drop bear]

2 arms on 2 arms no advantage vs 2 arms vs 1 arm.

Not true

What you are talking about is who has better skill. You are trying to do something to me I am trying to do something to you. If one is on top the other doesn't just stop moving and leave them there they try to do something it becomes a matter of training and skill and sometimes just innate advantage. You are faster than I am You have an advantage I can use my hips better than you can I have an advantage.

The point is if I can use 2 hands and you can only use one I can control your one and have a free hand to do something unopposed . If we are facing 2 on 2 I have to do more to control and clear a path for attacking and have to deal with more possibilities from you when defending. Getting to the outside or the back is always an advantage. It always limits the opponents possibilities

In fighting you limit their ability to strike while you are grappling by limiting their space.

So two hands on one isn't the risk that it may seem to be during chi sau.

So it is kind of comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So two hands on one isn't the risk that it may seem to be during chi sau.

Agree! When you use 2 hands to guide your opponent's leading right arm across his body, his body will rotate to his left. His left back hand cannot punch out. Of course your opponent can borrow your rotation force, spin his body to his left, and hit with his left spin back fist. But his back will have to be exposed under your back neck choke.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If one is on top the other doesn't just stop moving ...

Of course you can keep moving. But you have to deal with your opponent's body weight if his

- arm is on top of your arm, or
- body is on top of your body.

 

[hunschuld]

Body on top of Body becomes grappling discussion which is not what we are talking about here.

As far as hands on top vs bottom.I know in chi sao many consider 2 hands on top to be the stronger position. I have never found it to be an issue. In the first gif above long pants issue is not that short pants is controlling but rather he is violating the rules on elbow placement and energy flow. Long pants has several strikes ,sweeps/controls and throws open to him it becomes a matter of skill or speed as to which person get the ultimate advantage Short pants actually gives up control for a moment when he moves his hands up from wrist control to elbow control. A skilled opponent would switch the initiative.

This goes back to my point 2 arms on 2 arms vs 2 arms on one. If you go to your post above the last by using 2 arms on one you have used the opponents body to block or negate the effective use of the far arm and if you move his body across you get a clean shot at attacking his side or back and multiple take down options. The person with their arm being dragged and body being moved away has far fewer options and his options are so few that you know what they are and have a distinct advantage in countering.

Dark shirt possibilities have been reduced while white shirts have been increased vs front facing 2 arms on 2 arms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Short pants actually gives up control for a moment when he moves his hands up from wrist control to elbow control. A skilled opponent would switch the initiative.

The advantage of A garbs on B's wrist is A is 1 step ahead of B.

1. A's hand grabs on B's wrist.
2. B rotates his wrist to break A's grip.
3. A moves his hand from B's wrist position to B's elbow position.

In 2, even if B doesn't intend to break A's grip. A's hands can "slide" along B's arms and reach to B's elbows. A's grips with tiger mouth facing to A can force B's arms to rotate inward. This will give A a chance to "slide" his hands along B's arms. In other words, how B may break A's grips is part of A's plan.

A has a plan. That's A's advantage.

IMO, most of the WC sticky hand training may not have a plan. That can be an issue.

 

[wckf92]

IMO, most of the WC sticky hand training may not have a plan. That can be an issue.

Wing chun sticking hand training doesn't have a plan, it has a process. A step by step process.