Bad Chi Sao has ruined WC as a fighting art!

[Poppity]

Just a quick apology for my ranty post. I am taking myself off line for a bit to get my head together.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Just a quick apology for my ranty post, I recently lost my father due to covid so I am pretty disagreeable and irrationally angry at things at the moment. I am taking myself off line for a bit.

My condolences for your loss.

For what it's worth, I don't think there was anything unreasonable in your post that you would need to apologize for.

 

[hunschuld]

Just a quick apology for my ranty post. I am taking myself off line for a bit to get my head together.

I must have missed it. The posts I have read of yours seem on point nothing wrong with them.

 

[Danny T]

The issue also is if you Chi Sau a striker you will get your head smashed in. Because being good at Chi Sau sets up some terrible positions to strike from.

Some people are just hard headed!
You Don't Chi Sao in a fight!!! You fight and in doing so you may use a piece of what you learn within the drill of chi sao 'IF' it is appropriate.
Chi Sao IS NOT fighting! It is a attribute development.

 

[wckf92]

Saying WC folks "fight" with chi sau is like saying a boxer boxes the same way he/she hits the speed bag; or like saying a grappler grapples the same way he/she does the basic "shrimping" drill on the floor.

And now, if that is over with...we return you to your regularly scheduled programming

 

[ShortBridge]

...until the next time someone posts this issue as a new discussion/assertion.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Those examples are from the same lineage so it may just be their method.

Do you have any clips to show that wrist grabbing is used in the sticky hands? I remember that I have seen a clip that has:

- left hand grab on opponent's left wrist,
- left hand push opponent's left arm to jam opponent's own right arm.
- right hand punch on opponent's face.

but I can't find it.

The issue also is if you Chi Sau a striker you will get your head smashed in. Because being good at Chi Sau sets up some terrible positions to strike from.

When your arms make contact with your opponent's arms, you have some goal that you want to achieve.

- To know where your opponent's arm is.
- To disable his arms if you can.

Use one hand to control both of your opponent's arms and use your free arm to punch. This concept by itself make CMA unique from boxing. (I'm not sure whether boxers train this strategy or not).

If you can use your

- left hand to grab on your opponent's right wrist.
- right hand to grab on your opponent's left wrist.
- You then use your right hand to guide your opponent's left arm across his right arm,
- You can free one of your arms and do your thing.

This is why I think the wrist grabbing is so important in the WC sticky hands training.

 

[wckf92]

Do you have any clips to show that wrist grabbing is used in the sticky hands? I remember that I have seen a clip that has:

- left hand grab on opponent's left wrist,
- left hand push opponent's left arm to jam opponent's own right arm.
- right hand punch on opponent's face.

but I can't find it.


When your arms make contact with your opponent's arms, you have some goal that you want to achieve.

- To know where your opponent's arm is.
- To disable his arms if you can.

Use one hand to control both of your opponent's arms and use your free arm to punch. This concept by itself make CMA unique from boxing. (I'm not sure whether boxers train this strategy or not).

Well, in chi sau...you do not have an "opponent", just a training partner who is (hopefully) wanting to make you a better wc man.
To your other points:
1) to know where your opponents arm is - yes, this is automatic by merely having contact during the chi sau drill. So in my mind it's not so much a goal (as you say) but more of a fact through touching.

2) to disable his arms if you can - maybe, but also maybe not. My job (by learning and practicing the proper shapes and energies of the hands through the forms and other drills) is to merely "roll" and then when and if my training partner does not exhibit the proper corresponding shapes / energies, my WC goes on auto-pilot.

But to your point about grabbing. To me, grabbing is merely a fleeting tool used to either generate power, use his power against him, and/or to clear an obstruction.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I also don't see "arm drag" used in most WC sticky hands training. To use opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm so you can have 1 free arm to do your thing is very useful.

IMO, more combat skills can be developed by using the WC sticky hands training.

In the following picture,

- If A uses right hand to pull B's right arm, B's right arm can jam B's own left arm. Since this pulling cause B to rotate his body to his left. B can't punch out his left arm
- When A uses right hand to pull, A's left hand will be free to do his thing.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Chi sao is fighting, and it is not fighting, in the same way 黐 means sticky rice, but also a trap for birds, and yet another hidden reference to something completely mundane in reality, crossing arms with a training brother or sister. Something that if you don't do, your kung fu will always suck.

With regards to all these Wing Chun videos, I hope everyone notices the worst element in them: the crowd. I swear, if it was ever just two people playing slap boxing, nobody would even care. But put it on video, especially in front of a live crowd, and you can actually hear the bloodlust.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What's the major difference between CMA and boxing?

IMO, the major difference is in

Boxing - you punch me, I dodge. I punch you, you dodge. In sword fight, this is like you cut my leg off, at the same time I'll chop your arm off.

CMA - you try to control your opponent's arm when you punch him. In sword fight, this is like my sword touches on your sword. I slide my sword along your sword (this is why the sword contact is important), and cut your head off.

IMO, the CMA approach is much safer than the boxing approach. You use one had to control your opponent's am while punch him with another arm make CMA to be different from boxing.

 

[hunschuld]

I also don't see "arm drag" used in most WC sticky hands training. To use opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm so you can have 1 free arm to do your thing is very useful.

IMO, more combat skills can be developed by using the WC sticky hands training.

In the following picture,

- If A uses right hand to pull B's right arm, B's right arm can jam B's own left arm. Since this pulling cause B to rotate his body to his left. B can't punch out his left arm
- When A uses right hand to pull, A's left hand will be free to do his thing.

 

[hunschuld]

I agree you, don't see this enough yet it is in Chum Kui.. You also have what wrestlers call the Russian Tie in Chum Kui. The only difference they use it to set up a take down we use it to strike,lock and strike,lock and knee attack/ sweep of some kind or all three. Not as easy as I may make it sound but if your goal is maintain close distance and get to the side body position it is a basic thing.

 

[hunschuld]

I goofed up the above posts some how. Should be one post

 

[hunschuld]

As far as grabbing not only is it part of chi sao but since the mid 90's to not include it is malpractice. You need to know how to stop guard from being pulled and how to stop basic shoot at the very least. With a world full of grapplers now if you don't at least have a basic understanding of grappling in chi sao you are in trouble

 

[Danny T]

I also don't see "arm drag" used in most WC sticky hands training. To use opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm so you can have 1 free arm to do your thing is very useful.

IMO, more combat skills can be developed by using the WC sticky hands training.

In the following picture,

- If A uses right hand to pull B's right arm, B's right arm can jam B's own left arm. Since this pulling cause B to rotate his body to his left. B can't punch out his left arm
- When A uses right hand to pull, A's left hand will be free to do his thing.

You don't see arm drags much because if you are attempting an arm drag from sticky hands you will have crossed the line and have committed your 2 hands onto the opponent's one arm. If you can do an arm drag from within chi sao the other person is terrible in chi sao. In the example photo Red Shirt should isn't sticking while Green Shirt has committed both hands to one arm. IF Red was sticking with his left he would simply punch Green in the face while his left arm/elbow position would have prevented Green from being able to reach under his rights upper arm.

 

[Marnetmar]

It seems rather counterproductive to me to try and force Chi Sao to do things it wasn't designed to do in order to incorporate half-assed grappling rather than just learning proper grappling to begin with.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you can do an arm drag from within chi sao the other person is terrible in chi sao.

The main point is there are many effective counters to "arm drag". If you don't train in WC sticky hands, when will you train it?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It seems rather counterproductive to me to try and force Chi Sao to do things it wasn't designed to do in order to incorporate half-assed grappling rather than just learning proper grappling to begin with.

Of course you can design a new training drill for that purpose. Since WC sticky hands already exist, why do you need to invent a new training drill?

In WC sticky hands drill, if

- I grab your wrist,
- you rotate your arm, break my grip against my thumb, and grab back on my wrist.
- I then do the same thing, rotate my arm, break your grip, and grab back on your wrist.

It's so easy to add such training in your existence WC sticky hands. You don't need to develop a new one. The nice thing about this training is after you get used to this training, when your opponent tries to grab on your wrist, your arm will rotate automatically and escape out of that wrist grabbing. That's the ability that you want to develop.

- You try to grab my wrist.
- I rotate my arm and make your grabbing into the thin air.
- I then grab on top of your elbow joint.

 

[Steve]

Saying WC folks "fight" with chi sau is like saying a boxer boxes the same way he/she hits the speed bag; or like saying a grappler grapples the same way he/she does the basic "shrimping" drill on the floor.

And now, if that is over with...we return you to your regularly scheduled programming

I don't know about boxing, but grapplers do shrimp against an opponent exactly the way they do in the drill. It's a fundamental movement that, like a sit out drill, translates directly to movement in a match.

If you're looking for attribute development, maybe something like Ginastica Natural is more analogous to chi sau.