Attack and freeze defences...

[Andrew Green]

At an extreme example of this would be something like this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2331148170663846166

One guy initiates a big, exagerrated and artificial attack, other guy defends and proceeds to unleash his deadly barrage while person A stands there doing a maniquin impression.

Granted, most are not too this extreme, but it seems this general syndrome persists in the martial arts world. Either with completely freezing or responding in a even less realistic manner. (ex. I punch him and his response is a two handed grab on my wrist in shock...)

Does this syndrome exist in your school? How do you combat it?

 

[Zoran]

He is doing a pre arranged technique. It is neither live training nor is it spontaneous. Attempting to move during one of these is a good way to loose a peice of yourself.

Now if that is the only training that they do in their school, then it is a problem.

Otherwise, it is only a drill, like;
1. punching a focus mitt or heavy bag,
2. doing katas or forms,
3. Sparring either point, boxing, mma, or submission fighting.

Non of the above is realistic by itself for the following reasons;
1. heavy bags don't hit back
2. Katas and forms are only dances,
3. All sparring has rules and could give you bad habits.

But they do teach;
1. generating power and learning to hit something solid,
2. coordination and foot work,
3. how to respond to a live opponent.

Put all of it together, including the video you decided to use as an example, you may be able to learn how to defend yourself.

 

[Phadrus00]

Oiy!

That did look particularly bad... And the training partner wasn't helping with that "Are you done yet?" look..

To your point Andrew, moments like this basically serve the singular purpose of trying to make the demonstrator look good. Most of my training is in the Filipino Arts and Silat and although you might see some of this behavior (passive, compliant feeder) in the beginner version of the drill, it diappears in the intermediate and advanced versions. We are always training to worry about the NEXT attack, especially when knives are involved. If you look at drills like Hubad, Sumbrada, Palasut, etc. they are all done with a partner and represent a flow of attack/counter-attack. I would say that that same philosohy exists in drills like trapping hands in JKD/Wing Chun, Trapping Feet in Silat, Espada y Daga in Filipino Arts.

It's harder to learn these drills as they have more "moving parts" but they definately are more fun to practice! *grin*

Rob <- Used to do Box Sumbrada with live machetes a long time ago... Buyah!

Rob

 

[Andrew Green]

To your point Andrew, moments like this basically serve the singular purpose of trying to make the demonstrator look good.

err... no... no that doesn't make him look good

it diappears in the intermediate and advanced versions.

Hopefully, but... I've seen this but, there is also a ton of seminar footage of guys in black belts training like this floating around on the web to prove that is not always the case.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think the purpose of designing techniques like this is that it develops an automatic flow from the initial defense, then to one strike to the next without stopping, maintaining control of the confrontation until the assailant is down. At least that is the theory.

This particlular example went seriously awry. I have learned the Five Swords technique in Tracys, and it bears little resemblance to this one.

In designing a technique with this kind of flow, I think it is important to consider what you are trying to do to the opponent, and how he is likely to respond physically, assuming what you are doing to him is successful. First, this means that after about two to four strikes, the situation should be over, or else you have failed.

Second, each followup strike should be designed in such a way as it makes sense when we consider how the prior strike should have affected the attacker. In this particular, unfortunate example, the attacker just stood there like a stooge and didn't react at all. What compounded it and made it even worse, is that the defender finished his 47 blistering attacks with a roundhouse kick to the head!! In my opinion, this shows that he has given no thought to the reality of the situation. AFter the first 46 deathblows that he delivered, the attacker should have been on the ground. To even consider a high headkick at this point is just stupid, because the guy's head shouldn't even be there anymore.

In my opinion, this kind of thing, that people like to call "complexity", is really just "complicated", and even "rediculous". I think it is OK to train some techniques like this, designed to respond to a specific attack. But the technique needs to be simple, direct, and effective. Not complicated nonsense. A few basic ideas need to be incorporated, and they all need to be sound, and make sense.

First, a realistic reaction to the attack, including evasive movements, and blocking/deflecting movements.

Second, a decisive answer to the attack, consisting of 2-4 counterstrikes, or joint manipulations, or whatever is your flavor.

Third, understand that these techniques are really just ideas to work with. It is unlikely that they will ever work on the street exactly as taught. But they contain ideas that are good, and can be used alone, or mixed with ideas from other techniques. But ultimately, you need to be able to be spontaneous with what you do, and it has to be decisive. Getting too wrapped up in these sequences is a mistake.

 

[Bigshadow]

Does this syndrome exist in your school? How do you combat it?

No, we don't have that problem. If someone doesn't move, they WILL get hit. After someone gets hit once or twice they usually aren't there the 2nd or 3rd time.

IMHO, if someone freezes up like that, then slow it down because they are not ready to run. First of all, speed masks bad habits and covers up weak points. Just like running, a child cannot run if the child has not learned how to walk, for running is the same mechanics as walking only FASTER.

 

[rutherford]

. . . for running is the same mechanics as walking only FASTER.

Actually, there a lot of differences between running and walking.

Most people do both wrong. %-}

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

At an extreme example of this would be something like this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2331148170663846166

One guy initiates a big, exagerrated and artificial attack, other guy defends and proceeds to unleash his deadly barrage while person A stands there doing a maniquin impression.

Granted, most are not too this extreme, but it seems this general syndrome persists in the martial arts world. Either with completely freezing or responding in a even less realistic manner. (ex. I punch him and his response is a two handed grab on my wrist in shock...)

Does this syndrome exist in your school? How do you combat it?

Dude: That is American Kenpo Karate! Developed by the late great Senior Grand Master Ed Parker, American Kenpo Karate is the most comprehensive and deadly martial art ever devised for use against attackers who stand there and let themselves get hit.

 

[Phadrus00]

Dude: That is American Kenpo Karate! Developed by the late great Senior Grand Master Ed Parker, American Kenpo Karate is the most comprehensive and deadly martial art ever devised for use against attackers who stand there and let themselves get hit.

:rofl:

 

[Bigshadow]

Actually, there a lot of differences between running and walking.

Most people do both wrong. %-}

Yes true. But the basics are still very much the same. Anyway, I am sure you know what I meant.

 

[Andrew Green]

That is American Kenpo Karate!

Just want to point out that this is not a shot at Kenpo

I've seen the same thing done under many oher names, this just happened to be a example I had handy

 

[monkey]

There were 2 things I saw from that 1-distance was controlled & some power diplayed.2-he reponed to the attack-no waiting & if he wanted to I think 1 more step forward he could go the distance to defend & deploy.1 can not be a harsh judge & say it wont work untile you go in person & do the same for real & feel.Thats the deal.

 

[liuseongsystem]

our system has a method of striking interwoven with counter capability, and it is taught pretty much right away. after a while in training, the students spontaneously begin to use counter motions. then the techniques must improve to negate or bypass the counter.

counters work on weaknessess in the attack, so a counter fighting system is constantly honing attack patterns via the reciever's 'counter' or 'break' patterns.

peace.

 

[Sapper6]

At an extreme example of this would be something like this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2331148170663846166

One guy initiates a big, exagerrated and artificial attack, other guy defends and proceeds to unleash his deadly barrage while person A stands there doing a maniquin impression.

Granted, most are not too this extreme, but it seems this general syndrome persists in the martial arts world. Either with completely freezing or responding in a even less realistic manner. (ex. I punch him and his response is a two handed grab on my wrist in shock...)

Does this syndrome exist in your school? How do you combat it?

that was retarded.

if this guy was actually striking with proficiency, the aggressor would have not been left standing while the million strikes were performed. this is a common sight when viewing kenpo on film. videos like this do no justice for the system. i can see now why AK is referred to as the "slapping art". it's videos like this that instill that flawed assumption into the minds of people that don't know any better.

one of the first things i learned as an instructor was how to be a good dummy; reacting realistically to strikes. to not do this instills false confidence in the person performing the technique. why in the world would a martial artist want to think that this would work? wouldn't the person performing the technique want that person to act as natural as possible?

videos like this do nothing but make the person performing in them look good better than what they actually are. these videos are worthless, and bring shame to the art they "claim" to be representing.

 

[Robert Lee]

In the video there was to much thrown for a teaching method. Sure demos where you throw a small combo then stop to offer further explaining is fine. And as being coroperating this is good for demo or begining trainining then onto more live training. We start somewhere to learn. But This video di take it to far for a standing target.

 

[swiftpete]

that was retarded.

if this guy was actually striking with proficiency, the aggressor would have not been left standing while the million strikes were performed. this is a common sight when viewing kenpo on film. videos like this do no justice for the system. i can see now why AK is referred to as the "slapping art". it's videos like this that instill that flawed assumption into the minds of people that don't know any better.

one of the first things i learned as an instructor was how to be a good dummy; reacting realistically to strikes. to not do this instills false confidence in the person performing the technique. why in the world would a martial artist want to think that this would work? wouldn't the person performing the technique want that person to act as natural as possible?

videos like this do nothing but make the person performing in them look good better than what they actually are. these videos are worthless, and bring shame to the art they "claim" to be representing.

In my class i have no choice to react realistically to strikes. As I'm actually getting struck. OOf!

 

[MJS]

I think that FC and Sapper6 brought up some very good points. I agree strongly with the 'attacker' 'reacting' to the strikes that are being thrown. This is something that I'd always bring up to students when teaching them.

I'm posting this link to show a few more techniques. IMHO, they give a much better idea as to how someone should be moving/reacting.

http://www.ltatum.com/TipOfTheWeek.html

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

that was retarded.

one of the first things i learned as an instructor was how to be a good dummy; reacting realistically to strikes. to not do this instills false confidence in the person performing the technique. why in the world would a martial artist want to think that this would work? wouldn't the person performing the technique want that person to act as natural as possible?

Sapper: making non-penetrating contact and having the uke "react" to strikes by pretending to be moved or hurt is one of Kenpo's primary technical and training advances over prior Karate practice. But, if you want a person to act as "natural as possible", then the person would be moving, blocking, and hitting back, not just standing there and "reacting" like good dummy. And that is what is missing in most Kenpo training.

One more point: I believe the technician in Andrew's post is Bob Liles, a well respected Kenpoist with several decades of experience.

 

[Ross]

Sapper: making non-penetrating contact and having the uke "react" to strikes by pretending to be moved or hurt is one of Kenpo's primary technical and training advances over prior Karate practice. But, if you want a person to act as "natural as possible", then the person would be moving, blocking, and hitting back, not just standing there and "reacting" like good dummy. And that is what is missing in most Kenpo training.

One more point: I believe the technician in Andrew's post is Bob Liles, a well respected Kenpoist with several decades of experience.

In my school we believe that when executing a self defense technique it is very much a two person experience. It is imperative for the attacker to move as the practioner strikes them.

It is worth noting that the techniques are designed for the correct body movement following a paticular strike. Eg a inward block on the striking arm will have a very specific reaction.

In the case of 5 swords (as seen in the clip), the realism of getting past the uppercut is virtually non-existant.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

In my school we believe that when executing a self defense technique it is very much a two person experience. It is imperative for the attacker to move as the practioner strikes them.

It is worth noting that the techniques are designed for the correct body movement following a paticular strike. Eg a inward block on the striking arm will have a very specific reaction.

In the case of 5 swords (as seen in the clip), the realism of getting past the uppercut is virtually non-existant.

I understand that. But, that does not make the techniques more realistic. If you want the techniques to be realistic, have your attacker continue fighting through the entire encounter.