At what point do you tap in a blood choke?

[Hanzou]

The purple belt at my gym was giving me a hard time for tapping early to a choke yesterday. I felt pressure on both sides of my neck and so I tapped. He told me that if I'm in a choke and I can still breathe, then it's not too late and I should fight out of it. But...a blood choke isn't an air choke. Airflow isn't restricted, but blood flow is.

When do you tap to a blood choke? Is it something you feel in your neck or in your head?

He's a nice guy and I think he's trying to be helpful, but sometimes I think he forgets that I'm a white belt and only been doing BJJ for a few months.

If I'm just practicing and someone has a choke locked in and I can't escape after my first attempt, I tap. I do this because I don't want to be in a situation where I pass out and CAN'T tap. What people don't realize is that fighting the choke can cause you to pass out more quickly, and if your partner is dealing with you consistently fighting, they may not realize you've passed out.

 

[Ivan]

The purple belt at my gym was giving me a hard time for tapping early to a choke yesterday. I felt pressure on both sides of my neck and so I tapped. He told me that if I'm in a choke and I can still breathe, then it's not too late and I should fight out of it. But...a blood choke isn't an air choke. Airflow isn't restricted, but blood flow is.

When do you tap to a blood choke? Is it something you feel in your neck or in your head?

He's a nice guy and I think he's trying to be helpful, but sometimes I think he forgets that I'm a white belt and only been doing BJJ for a few months

I've very rarely been caught in a blood choke, simply because they're quite rare. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Canto chokes and Bermuda chokes as blood chokes. Many people argue that triangles are blood chokes, but in my experience, they constrict my airflow. Modified triangles, the Bermuda, where you squeeze their shoulder in with your knee and slide it upwards is a blood choke, according to my Professor down south.

It's very nasty and you'll know it when you feel it. Although you can still breathe you will feel a lot of pressure on your face, and your throat will make a very sudden and raspy growling type of sound. However, it is not up to your partner to tell you when you have to tap - especially as white belts, we need to tap early, tap often.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I've very rarely been caught in a blood choke, simply because they're quite rare. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Canto chokes and Bermuda chokes as blood chokes. Many people argue that triangles are blood chokes, but in my experience, they constrict my airflow. Modified triangles, the Bermuda, where you squeeze their shoulder in with your knee and slide it upwards is a blood choke, according to my Professor down south.

It's very nasty and you'll know it when you feel it. Although you can still breathe you will feel a lot of pressure on your face, and your throat will make a very sudden and raspy growling type of sound. However, it is not up to your partner to tell you when you have to tap - especially as white belts, we need to tap early, tap often.

In my opinion, most properly applied chokes should be blood chokes/strangles. Rear naked chokes, triangles, arm triangles, Darce, Brabo, Von Flue, and cross collar chokes should all primarily hit the blood flow if done correctly.

Guillotines are the main exception. Most guillotine variations are air chokes.

Some chokes hit both to some extent, depending on your exact hand placement, i.e. bow & arrow choke and the bread cutter choke.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I’ve had a quick scan…it looks like a really good article! Is there anything specifically you’d like me to comment on? I find neuroscience a bit boring these days…I’m into relativity now

Na, sorry just picking your brain. The more medical doctors I get to validate stuff I've been told by martial artists, the better.

Also remembered there have been medical studies on "The Choking Game" victims, including ones that died as a result. The idea is that while a lot of these kids pass out because they can't breath, some are properly blood choked/strangled at the vagus/carotid area and suffer an immediate (and potentially life threatening) effect, depending on their health.

Choking game - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Strangulation​

A ligature such as a belt or rope around the neck, or hands or arm pressure on the neck compresses the internal carotid artery. Apart from the direct restriction of blood to the brain there are two other significant responses produced by pressing on the neck:

• Pressing on the carotid arteries also presses on baroreceptors. These bodies then cause vasodilatation in the brain leading to insufficient blood to perfuse the brain with oxygen and maintain consciousness.
• A message is also sent via the vagus nerve to the main pacemaker of the heart to decrease the rate and volume of the heartbeat, typically by a third.[7] In some cases there is evidence that this may escalate into asystole, a form of cardiac arrest that is difficult to treat.[8] There is a dissenting view on the full extent how and when a person reaches a stage of permanent injury, but it is agreed[by whom?] that pressure on the vagus nerve causes changes to pulse rate and blood pressure and is dangerous in cases of carotid sinus hypersensitivity.

 

[Gyakuto]

Na, sorry just picking your brain. The more medical doctors I get to validate stuff I've been told by martial artists, the better.

Also remembered there have been medical studies on "The Choking Game" victims, including ones that died as a result. The idea is that while a lot of these kids pass out because they can't breath, some are properly blood choked/strangled at the vagus/carotid area and suffer an immediate (and potentially life threatening) effect, depending on their health.

Somebody will say, “Well, you can die from taking an aspirin, so go figure!” But the fact is applying a choke hold is not a necessary or desirable thing to do and may increase the probability of unnecessary injuries and death. Should their use be regulated or outlawed? Rugby is going through similar inner turmoil with the realisation that the repeated, small head injuries acquired during tackling, is leading to dementia although they are skilfully side-stepping (pun intended) the obvious debate they should be having.

My opinion is that fighters/Rugby players should be made fully and unambiguously aware of the risks to which they are subjecting themselves. Specialist treatment facilities should be set up for them, wholly funded by their governing bodies and their insurance subscriptions, especially for their long-term care, should they require it thus removing them from stretched, publicly funded healthcare (where it is the norm).

 

[tkdroamer]

Na, sorry just picking your brain. The more medical doctors I get to validate stuff I've been told by martial artists, the better.

Also remembered there have been medical studies on "The Choking Game" victims, including ones that died as a result. The idea is that while a lot of these kids pass out because they can't breath, some are properly blood choked/strangled at the vagus/carotid area and suffer an immediate (and potentially life threatening) effect, depending on their health.

Choking game - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Strangulation​

A ligature such as a belt or rope around the neck, or hands or arm pressure on the neck compresses the internal carotid artery. Apart from the direct restriction of blood to the brain there are two other significant responses produced by pressing on the neck:

• Pressing on the carotid arteries also presses on baroreceptors. These bodies then cause vasodilatation in the brain leading to insufficient blood to perfuse the brain with oxygen and maintain consciousness.
• A message is also sent via the vagus nerve to the main pacemaker of the heart to decrease the rate and volume of the heartbeat, typically by a third.[7] In some cases there is evidence that this may escalate into asystole, a form of cardiac arrest that is difficult to treat.[8] There is a dissenting view on the full extent how and when a person reaches a stage of permanent injury, but it is agreed[by whom?] that pressure on the vagus nerve causes changes to pulse rate and blood pressure and is dangerous in cases of carotid sinus hypersensitivity.

Pressing on the carotid arteries also presses on baroreceptors. These bodies then cause vasodilatation in the brain leading to insufficient blood to perfuse the brain with oxygen and maintain consciousness.

I see now that my response was over-simplified, but this is the point I was trying to make.

 

[Gyakuto]

I see now that my response was over-simplified, but this is the point I was trying to make.

When people go into paroxysmal supraventricular tachycardia, the first line of diagnosis and treatment is carotid sinus massage (don’t try this at home, folks!)

 

[Dirty Dog]

When people go into paroxysmal supraventricular tachycardia, the first line of diagnosis and treatment is carotid sinus massage (don’t try this at home, folks!)

Eerrrmmmm..... no. Don't try this at home, I absolutely agree with. But...

For those who don't do this for a living, CSM has the potential to convert some abnormal but typically fairly stable rhythms back to a normal rhythm. It can also cause such fun things as a stroke. Or conversion to a lethal rhythm such as Ventricular Fibrillation.

The use of CSM as a first line intervention is vanishingly rare, at least in the US. Although various Vagal Maneuvers are taught to patients and pre-hospital personnel, CSM is not one of them. The various ways of performing the Valsalva Maneuver are the go-to choice, in hospital or out.

Conversion rates for the various Vagal Maneuvers are, across the board, virtually identical. They're all in the 20% range. Given that they're all equally efficacious, and that CSM exposes the patient to (admittedly rare, but real) potentially devastating injuries, any reasonable risk/benefit analysis is going to come down against the use of CSM, except in a few very rare cases.

As a diagnostic tool... EKG/rhythm strips are too readily available and far more accurate. I have little confidence that anyone can differentiate between PSVT, A-Fib with RVR, 2:1 A-Flutter, V-Tach, or even a fast Ventricular Bigeminy by touch. Diagnostically, I think it is most useful for assessing for Carotid Sinus Hypersensitivity as a cause of syncope. And even for that there are more definitive tests and making that diagnosis based on CSM results would be imprudent.

I have seen it suggested that CSM can be used to help differentiate PSVT with aberrant conduction from V-Tach, but I think in most cases there are more reliable and safer options. If they're unstable, you'd go straight to electrical cardioversion, of course. If they're stable, giving them a dose of adenosine can be a good choice. If it's PSVT, it has a better than 90% chance to convert the rhythm. If it's A-Fib with RVR or A-Flutter with high conduction, it will slow the Ventricular Response (albeit briefly) allowing you to see the atrial activity. If it's Ventricular, it won't do anything.

There are plenty of other, safer vagal maneuvers they can try outside the hospital. Or in the hospital. One of my favorites is to hand them a 10ml syringe and have them try to push the plunger back by blowing into the needle end (before anyone freaks, there's no needle on it). And I can't think of anyone who routinely uses it diagnostically. EKG/rhythm strips are too readily available. And far more accurate, diagnostically.

 

[Darren]

Had my fourth BJJ class today, guy I was rolling with got me in a arm bar he said that is was fixing to break and to tap so I did. I was told to tap early and often!!! Cause I did not want to be out for 6 months letting it heal!! I don’t know what I would do if I missed training for 6 months plus I take care of a 24/7 special needs son all by my self! If anybody asked me if they should do the same I would ask them a couple of questions(taking care of a special needs child)
1.when did they let you out of the funny farm?
2.are you crazy?
3.please check your self back in the funny farm!!!! But in saying that will say it is the most rewarding 24/7 job you will ever have in this world!!! Even when you have to run on 2-3 hours of sleep four days in a row maybe more!! Would not trade it for all the gold in the world!!!

P.S everyone who does is just a little touched!!!

 

[Oily Dragon]

Somebody will say, “Well, you can die from taking an aspirin, so go figure!” But the fact is applying a choke hold is not a necessary or desirable thing to do and may increase the probability of unnecessary injuries and death. Should their use be regulated or outlawed? Rugby is going through similar inner turmoil with the realisation that the repeated, small head injuries acquired during tackling, is leading to dementia although they are skilfully side-stepping (pun intended) the obvious debate they should be having.

My opinion is that fighters/Rugby players should be made fully and unambiguously aware of the risks to which they are subjecting themselves. Specialist treatment facilities should be set up for them, wholly funded by their governing bodies and their insurance subscriptions, especially for their long-term care, should they require it thus removing them from stretched, publicly funded healthcare (where it is the norm).

Agreed and it's the same with NFL football players here, now. Partially thanks to Will Smith, believe it or not.

When I saw him smack Chris Rock, my first thought was "that was a pretty light hit".

Anybody here who thinks they've been hit hard should watch Jerry Maguire. And then thinking about how Cuba Gooding Jr. turned out.

No more quan for Cuba.

 

[OffendedOnyx]

The purple belt at my gym was giving me a hard time for tapping early to a choke yesterday. I felt pressure on both sides of my neck and so I tapped. He told me that if I'm in a choke and I can still breathe, then it's not too late and I should fight out of it. But...a blood choke isn't an air choke. Airflow isn't restricted, but blood flow is.

When do you tap to a blood choke? Is it something you feel in your neck or in your head?

He's a nice guy and I think he's trying to be helpful, but sometimes I think he forgets that I'm a white belt and only been doing BJJ for a few months.

I would mention it to the coach/instructor...that seems like a little much.
Like thats bad information. You cant really gain choke resistance due to neck anatomy
In my experienece I tap to if I lose track of whats going on, or the 2nd I feel an armlock or choke. If it affects the way you speak tap. thats a good rule of thumb.
Be safe in training.

Mention what was said to the coach/instructor.
If I was your parent that wouldnt sit well with me

 

[Darren]

Had this purple belt put his knee right on my carotid artery in one side of my neck once, since a artery is the biggest vein in the body and carries the blood to the most important organs in the body, heart, brain, etc, I tapped almost immediately as I want all the blood going to my my brain compared to half my blood going to my brain!!!! TAP VERY EARLY!!!!!

 

[OffendedOnyx]

If I'm just practicing and someone has a choke locked in and I can't escape after my first attempt, I tap. I do this because I don't want to be in a situation where I pass out and CAN'T tap. What people don't realize is that fighting the choke can cause you to pass out more quickly, and if your partner is dealing with you consistently fighting, they may not realize you've passed out.

Also just thought Id mention this. Do not personally seek mat justice yourself!!!!
Lawsuits a plenty!
Tell the coach because your coach could've had him test you to see how your temperament reacts.

 

[drop bear]

Had this purple belt put his knee right on my carotid artery in one side of my neck once, since a artery is the biggest vein in the body and carries the blood to the most important organs in the body, heart, brain, etc, I tapped almost immediately as I want all the blood going to my my brain compared to half my blood going to my brain!!!! TAP VERY EARLY!!!!!

See I would have held out on that one.

 

[Darren]

See I would have held out on that one.

I already have mild cerebral palsy and dyslexia just did not want to push it! But can see what ya mean!!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I just realized that, probably because of the CPR/alternative revival techniques debate, I never actually answered the question. Typically, regardless of the choke/lock, I'll tap when I feel they've got it locked in. As long as I know they've got it, and fighting will eventually result in me tapping anyway, I'll tap then. There are a few exceptions:

• When it's someone very new, I'll wait, because they can't always get the choke. I've walked someone through getting it properly on me at that point in the past (more in drilling than rolling), and I want to make sure they can actually get it, rather than thinking they can.
  • Unless I've seen this person try to just brute force things in. Especially if they're doing something like a leg lock, or a choke that they're trying to apply like a neck crank. Then I'll tap early to preserve my health.
• If they've got it locked in, but I feel like there's still something I can do, I'll fight for a bit. I've gotten subs on someone who should've had a sub on me before they can get theirs in the past. I don't think I'd do that for a blood choke though.
• If some part of me is sore for whatever reason or injured, I'll tap earlier than normal. So if I tweaked my shoulder, and they're putting a lot of pressure/weird pressure on it, I'll tap, then explain to them why I tapped. Sometimes we'll pick up from right before then, sometimes we'll reset to roll again. I've got neck issues, so that's happened sometimes with chokes, when they're being placed in akward ways. I've never had anyone complain about it (and have had people do the same when I'm trying to apply something).

 

[skribs]

I would mention it to the coach/instructor...that seems like a little much.
Like thats bad information. You cant really gain choke resistance due to neck anatomy

The professor did hear me and him have a bit of a disagreement over this type of stuff, and then the professor had a talk with him. I don't know if it's what we were talking about or not.

One thing I try to keep in mind is that a purple belt is a beginner at leadership, just like I was when I started teaching Taekwondo. And I certainly made my mistakes.

I like to filter the advice he gives me, because a lot of it is technically correct, but not really useful for me right now. For example, he tells me that I'm telegraphing my moves and I need more variety. While this is true, when I only know one move for the position we're in and I only hit it 50% in drilling, I don't think my immediately solution is to work on not telegraphing.

Or worse, when I don't have a move for the position we're in, and the Professor gives me advice, and in trying that advice I'm "telegraphing".

Don't get me wrong, this purple belt is a great guy and I have learned a lot from him. It's just sometimes a frustrating process.

 

[Darren]

This guy had his knee firmly in the side of my neck to where my neck was not aligned with my head if I had rolled out somehow was thinking since human beings are very competitive he would use more pressure to keep me there!! So I tapped out!!

 

[OffendedOnyx]

The professor did hear me and him have a bit of a disagreement over this type of stuff, and then the professor had a talk with him. I don't know if it's what we were talking about or not.

One thing I try to keep in mind is that a purple belt is a beginner at leadership, just like I was when I started teaching Taekwondo. And I certainly made my mistakes.

I like to filter the advice he gives me, because a lot of it is technically correct, but not really useful for me right now. For example, he tells me that I'm telegraphing my moves and I need more variety. While this is true, when I only know one move for the position we're in and I only hit it 50% in drilling, I don't think my immediately solution is to work on not telegraphing.

Or worse, when I don't have a move for the position we're in, and the Professor gives me advice, and in trying that advice I'm "telegraphing".

Don't get me wrong, this purple belt is a great guy and I have learned a lot from him. It's just sometimes a frustrating process.

Oh you teach Taekwondo? You guys have awesome kicks!

Telegraphing is perspectively based...thats someone telling you that what you are doing is blatantly obvious.

It has a bunch of different implications...assuming its coming from Master Tough It Out Purple Belt or whatever...this is him trying to downplay your skill level...again throwing more logs on your fire...I dunno...to me I would bail on that gym...too much temper testing IMO.

Just learn self defense and communication thats applicable to your geographic location. Its not up to you to run around play psycologist and give all the clumsy abusive speakers emotional handjobs/pacifers.
If he needs mental health support tell him to Google a shrink

 

[skribs]

It has a bunch of different implications...assuming its coming from Master Tough It Out Purple Belt or whatever...this is him trying to downplay your skill level...again throwing more logs on your fire...I dunno...to me I would bail on that gym...too much temper testing IMO.

Your assumption is way way off. This gym is one of the best communities I've been a part of. It's just that sometimes the purple belts aren't perfect.