dangers of the choke?

[Aikicomp]

I studied Ju-Jitsu since 1982 and have extensive training in Judo Shimewaza and let me tell you that with a "blood choke" you WILL put your opponent out in less than 8 seconds and if you hold it longer than that you WILL have a real chance of killing him...so be very careful when you apply these techniques.

As for the "air" choke if applied to strong you WILL crush or collapse his trachea and it will not re-open...so again be real careful when applying shimewaza.

Please, please, please I can not stress enough..... if you are going to practice these techniques find a good instructor who knows what he's teaching and do not over apply these chokes, they are very, very dangerous.

Michael

 

[jtweymo]

That's a really good point and a really good post, Aikicomp.

In line with that:
Strangulation techniques (shime waza) were originally part of the Jujutsu arrest techniques (osae waza) used by the Japanese imperial police in the apprehension of criminals and the restraint of indigenous non-Japanese residents living in Japan. That's why they exist in Jujutsu/Judo.
As part of the arrest techniques, their purpose is largely to restrain and cut off air supply or blood supply, or both. They were originally intended for more serious acts of police restraint.



Actually... I ain't sure precisely which modern Western master said it... maybe it was Donn F Draeger, I think? He said that "...(in Japan, among the Japanese) these shime waza weren't considered the real strangulations..." he went on further to say that "...in Japan, to take a rope and tie it around the guy's throat and around the rail of a bridge and toss him over it... that was a real strangulation (as far as the Japanese were concerned.)" I'm fairly sure it was Donn F Draeger who reported this?

It is also a fact of Shime waza that (what sometimes gets called Hojojutsu) is integral, part of the waza and jutsu. That's worth mentioning too.

 

[Saitama Steve]

In line with that:
Strangulation techniques (shime waza) were originally part of the Jujutsu arrest techniques (osae waza) used by the Japanese imperial police in the apprehension of criminals and the restraint of indigenous non-Japanese residents living in Japan. That's why they exist in Jujutsu/Judo.
As part of the arrest techniques, their purpose is largely to restrain and cut off air supply or blood supply, or both. They were originally intended for more serious acts of police restraint.

They were callled renkoho (連行法 ), not osae-waza. Osae-waza are used when you control someone, pinning them. Renkoho are used to arrest them.

It is also a fact of Shime waza that (what sometimes gets called Hojojutsu) is integral, part of the waza and jutsu. That's worth mentioning too.

No, hojojutsu/torinawa (捕縄&#34899 are for tying up prisoners/criminals using rope or the sageo of the katana. Ideally, you'd use hojo after you have employed shime-waza not before.

 

[jtweymo]

Hi ya guys, Hi ya Saitama, how R U folks?

Saitama said: They were callled renkoho (連行法 ), not osae-waza. Osae-waza are used when you control someone, pinning them. Renkoho are used to arrest them.

Yeah I know. But lots of people wouldn't have known the term renkoho. And not all form of Jujutsu used that term either. For that matter, "osae waza" is judo and not really a jujutsu term per se. Far as I know, it's modern Judo. The point was that this type of material descends from the arrest methods of Jujutsu. So do the strangualtion methods. But you already know all of that anyway. You're right though, osae waza technically isn't the correct terminology.

Saitama also said: No, hojojutsu/torinawa (捕縄&#34899 are for tying up prisoners/criminals using rope or the sageo of the katana. Ideally, you'd use hojo after you have employed shime-waza not before.

True but once again I used the term more people would recognize (please note that I said "what sometimes gets called...") you are right though, of course, it's not technically correct terminology. However, if I'm not mistaken, hojojutsu is more like modern police jujutsu terminology for it.

Saitama, I apologize, obviously (folks like) you prefer the more accurate terms to be applied. I was assuming lots of the posters in this thread to be more Judo related so I used terms they'd recognize. I know that isn't really accurate but...

MY APOLOGIES

Oh and I almost forgot... all that you responded to (that particular post) was remarks on a (now historical) statement made by what I beleive was Donn F Draeger on the entire subject (of Osae waza and Shime waza.) It was he who used the term hojojutsu, I just followed suit because the recorded remark used that term.

 

[Saitama Steve]

Hi ya guys, Hi ya Saitama, how R U folks?



Yeah I know. But lots of people wouldn't have known the term renkoho. And not all form of Jujutsu used that term either. For that matter, "osae waza" is judo and not really a jujutsu term per se. Far as I know, it's modern Judo. The point was that this type of material descends from the arrest methods of Jujutsu. So do the strangualtion methods. But you already know all of that anyway. You're right though, osae waza technically isn't the correct terminology.

Use italics & brackets to define a term you are unsure that others may know. That way, it's better for everyone.

True but once again I used the term more people would recognize (please note that I said "what sometimes gets called...") you are right though, of course, it's not technically correct terminology. However, if I'm not mistaken, hojojutsu is more like modern police jujutsu terminology for it.

Actually, no.

Hojojutsu is actually a generic term, since each ryuha had it's own terminology for the particular discipline of binding prisoners with rope. A good number of Edo period jujutsu schools used the term hojojutsu as well as their own ryuha specific term in densho (teaching texts).

Saitama, I apologize, obviously (folks like) you prefer the more accurate terms to be applied. I was assuming lots of the posters in this thread to be more Judo related so I used terms they'd recognize. I know that isn't really accurate but...

MY APOLOGIES

Ah well, you know the old saying about when you assume something.

Why assume that others on the forum are clueless?

 

[jtweymo]

Oookay Saitama.

So...

uh-huh.

Hmph... 'clueless' ??

Maybe you didn't mean it the way it sounded.

I dunno.... can't tell.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Can we discuss the topic without insults please?

 

[Saitama Steve]

No problems on this side Jade.

 

[jtweymo]

Hello.

Topic is in 'discussion' mode.

 

[elder999]

In addition to the mostly good posts on this thread, I just thought I'd add that another danger is practicing chokes with an instructor who hasn't received training in the particular resucitative methods associated with them. This used to be a standard part of even judo, but I meet many judo, jujutsu and Brazilian jujitsu people who don't know these methods.

 

[Saitama Steve]

In addition to the mostly good posts on this thread, I just thought I'd add that another danger is practicing chokes with an instructor who hasn't received training in the particular resucitative methods associated with them. This used to be a standard part of even judo, but I meet many judo, jujutsu and Brazilian jujitsu people who don't know these methods.

Very good point!

You're absolutely right, there are a few instructors out there that don't know their resucitation drills for when someone is choked out.

In one of the jujutsu ryuha I trained in while living in Japan, one par for the course was that you'd eventually be choked out in keiko or knocked out with a strike somewhere along in the training. The shihan for that school would teach kappo to people of certain levels who had permission to teach.

It's very useful, even for beginners to know though.

 

[jarrod]

i've never covered resucitation in any of my judo or jujitsu training, other than just let the guy wake up. all instructors are required to maintain CPR certification though. our coach's wife(a 6th dan herself, & world sambo champ) had to blow open a guy's trachea at a tournament once.

jf

 

[Aikicomp]

i've never covered resucitation in any of my judo or jujitsu training, other than just let the guy wake up. all instructors are required to maintain CPR certification though. our coach's wife(a 6th dan herself, & world sambo champ) had to blow open a guy's trachea at a tournament once.

jf

That is a very dangerous thing to do.... or in that case NOT do. That's why there are rescue techniques, I was always taught and teach that when a person is put out you must take measures to revive them for if left alone they may die.

I was always under the impression that the trachea was a structure that if crushed WOULD NOT be able to be re-opened, due to the cartilaginous rings which support and protect the trachea.

Michael

 

[jarrod]

my anatomy may be off, but he couldn't breathe until she assited him, & something popped in his throat when she did a rescue breath.

people will wake up from a choke unless they have been choked out for a very long time; longer than they should have been choked in class. last time someone got choked out in my class he was awake before i could even get to him. he just said "i'm fine" then continued to roll.

jf

 

[Aikicomp]

my anatomy may be off, but he couldn't breathe until she assited him, & something popped in his throat when she did a rescue breath.

people will wake up from a choke unless they have been choked out for a very long time; longer than they should have been choked in class. last time someone got choked out in my class he was awake before i could even get to him. he just said "i'm fine" then continued to roll.

jf

I'm not saying they won't wake up I'm saying the possibility is there and there should be trained people knowledgable enough to help if the situation calls for it. When I first started training in Ju-Jitsu in the early 80's no one was doing wrestling or submissions or shime waza, when I would talk to people about it they would say wrestling or chokes, no, we don't do that. It seems with the recent popularity of UFC & MMA, "clubs" are popping up everywhere and every Tom, Dick and Harry Martial Art have added some sort of choking and wrestling techniques to their system to keep up with the Jones and some really have no clue as to how to teach a choke let alone revive someone that needs it....Just saying it could be a bad situation, one that should be avoided or at the very least planned for if needed.

Michael

 

[jarrod]

I'm not saying they won't wake up I'm saying the possibility is there and there should be trained people knowledgable enough to help if the situation calls for it. When I first started training in Ju-Jitsu in the early 80's no one was doing wrestling or submissions or shime waza, when I would talk to people about it they would say wrestling or chokes, no, we don't do that. It seems with the recent popularity of UFC & MMA, "clubs" are popping up everywhere and every Tom, Dick and Harry Martial Art have added some sort of choking and wrestling techniques to their system to keep up with the Jones and some really have no clue as to how to teach a choke let alone revive someone that needs it....Just saying it could be a bad situation, one that should be avoided or at the very least planned for if needed.

Michael

please take a look at the studies i posted earlier in this thread :

http://judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm

http://judoinfo.com/chokes6.htm

no fatalities from chokes in sport judo ever, no noticable long-term effects from being choked out. i appreciate your concern for safety, but for what it's worth the "club" i train at is headed by a very well-qualified instructor.
if someone is breathing & their heart is beating, they're fine.

jf

 

[elder999]

please take a look at the studies i posted earlier in this thread :

http://judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm

http://judoinfo.com/chokes6.htm

no fatalities from chokes in sport judo ever, no noticable long-term effects from being choked out. i appreciate your concern for safety, but for what it's worth the "club" i train at is headed by a very well-qualified instructor.
if someone is breathing & their heart is beating, they're fine.

jf

And yet,from the same webpage:

Resuscitation Techniques (Kappo)


Immediately release the victim and lay him or her flat so that blood may flow naturally back to the brain. Placing the victim on his or her side, with the head resting on the arm, will prevent vomit aspiration and facilitate breathing if necessary. Monitor the victim closely to make sure the airway is open and the victim is breathing. The opponent will generally regain consciousness spontaneously and be unharmed. If the athlete does not regain consciousness in 20 to 30 seconds and remains unresponsive to your efforts to revive him or her, medical assistance should be sought immediately.

Judo instructors should obtain CPR training and certification for use in case of a breathing or other emergency. Even without chokes Judo is a strenuous physical activity that carries some risks for which the instructor should be prepared. Try to awaken the patient with vocal or physical stimuli such as tapping or shouting. Check for breathing by putting your face close to the patient's mouth and looking at the chest, listening for air exchange, and feeling for a breath. Keep the airway open and initiate rescue breathing if there is no breathing. If a pulse is absent, commence chest compressions.

There are many old methods of traditional resuscitation that can also assist the victim in recovery. If the outcome is less than desirable these interventions may not be defensible in U.S. courts. They have generally been replaced by CPR which is based on more modern medical knowledge. Among sports coaches and medical professionals in the U.S., CPR is commonly recognized as the appropriate response to a medical emergency. Nevertheless the traditional forms of resuscitation are considered advanced techniques of Judo and instructors may wish to study them to complete their training for historical purposes or for use in special circumstances.





Traditional resuscitation techniques include:

• The direct massage of the carotid triangle on the neck to open up a collapsed artery or to manually stimulate the carotid sinus.
• Methods of assisting the victim in waking up and focussing attention such as slapping the victim, striking the sole of the foot, or yelling.
• Methods of inducing or simulating breathing through massage of the chest or diaphragm, expanding and contracting the lungs. Three such methods of Kodokan Judo are Sasoi Katsu, the inductive method, Eri Katsu, the lapel method, and So Katsu, the composite method.

It's my position that if an instructor doesn't have at a minimum CPR, they have no business teaching chokes. It's also my position that if they haven't been taught some of these older resucitation techniques, or at least have some awareness of them (and many, many judo instructors in the U.S. don't) they have no business teaching chokes, and maybe no business teaching judo or jujutsu......
....but that's just me-I'm old fashioned like that. :lol:

if someone is breathing & their heart is beating, they're fine.

Not necessarily-especially not if they''ve remained unconscious.....

...and, yeah, most of the time people will recover quite readily from chokes, but everyone is different-not just children. There's a special danger in training the middle aged or somewhat older person, in that their veins and arteries are often quite less than they used to be, and all too often without their knowledge of it. Additionally, a lot of school owners don't gather a correct medical history from their students, and don't get a doctor's clearance for participation-awareness of respiratory issues, high blood pressure, or a thyroid condition are all conditions that immediately come to mind as being especially important for anyone training someone in martial activity, never mind with chokes (do you think, huh?:lol-never mind a variety of other possibilities. Instructors should also be on the lookout for students that have been choked out-or nearly out-to ensure that it doesn't happen again in that particular training session-there's really very little reason for this to happen outside of contests, anyway.

Chokes can be practiced, and safely, but only with the guidance of a competent instructor-to my mind, competence implies a certain level of appropriate medical training and awareness.

 

[jarrod]

well i said we're required to maintain cpr certification, we just don't train traditional kappo.

jf

 

[elder999]

well i said we're required to maintain cpr certification, we just don't train traditional kappo.

jf

Well, that's a double edged sword-traditional kappo might get you sent to jail or sued, and CPR might not be enough to restore full blood flow to the brain.......
........no biggie, though, as long as you're insured, and have a releases and procedures in place. If you can't rouse 'em, call an ambulance-that should be the rule anyway.

(Willing to bet John Saylor learned kappo as part of his judo, though.....)

 

[jarrod]

Well, that's a double edged sword-traditional kappo might get you sent to jail or sued, and CPR might not be enough to restore full blood flow to the brain.......
........no biggie, though, as long as you're insured, and have a releases and procedures in place. If you can't rouse 'em, call an ambulance-that should be the rule anyway.

(Willing to bet John Saylor learned kappo as part of his judo, though.....)

so far so good, & i'm closing up shop when i move in may anyhow. i'm sure saylor learned it but he hasn't seen fit to include it in our cirriculuum. of course the cpr push could be because steve scott is also a cpr instructor.

...hey, wait a minute...

jf