asian polearms reinforced

[JowGaWolf]

perhaps if you went and inspected some before commenting on wall height,

I don't have to inspect. I simply just looked up the average height for castle walls or more accurately Curtain Walls which is what I'm actually referring to. Those walls are not said to be as high as 100ft.

There would be no need to scale a Castle Wall that is 100ft tall. Just go through the gate or wait them out. If you control the area within the curtain wall then there's no need to rush.

The curtain walls for this Castle above are 35 ft high.

The curtain walls for below is from the Citadel of Carcassonne in France. The are 39 feet (12 meters)

Lincoln Castle's curtain wall, seen from inside the castle's courtyard. The Westgate Water Tower is in the background. Here is another curtain wall. Significantly shorter. This one is inside the Castle's courtyard.

in the days when they had to cut wood by hand that a big ask

100 ft is more like it for your medieval castle, thats 100 ft and a moat, meaning you need a 150 ft ladder, in the days when they had to cut wood by hand that a big ask

Again you wouldn't use a ladder to climb a 100 foot wall. In the days where they cut wood by hand a 30 or 40 foot ladder wouldn't be an issue. Not every castle had a moat.


Give me the name of one castle that had a curtain wall of 100ft.

 

[jobo]

 

[jobo]

I don't have to inspect. I simply just looked up the average height for castle walls or more accurately Curtain Walls which is what I'm actually referring to. Those walls are not said to be as high as 100ft.

There would be no need to scale a Castle Wall that is 100ft tall. Just go through the gate or wait them out. If you control the area within the curtain wall then there's no need to rush.

The curtain walls for this Castle above are 35 ft high.

The curtain walls for below is from the Citadel of Carcassonne in France. The are 39 feet (12 meters)

Lincoln Castle's curtain wall, seen from inside the castle's courtyard. The Westgate Water Tower is in the background. Here is another curtain wall. Significantly shorter. This one is inside the Castle's courtyard.

Again you wouldn't use a ladder to climb a 100 foot wall. In the days where they cut wood by hand a 30 or 40 foot ladder wouldn't be an issue. Not every castle had a moat.


Give me the name of one castle that had a curtain wall of 100ft.

i also note that castle with 20 foot walls is on top of a 100ft hill

 

[JowGaWolf]

What you are looking at are not the walls that they would have used ladders on. If you look at this historical map (above) you can see that the curtain wall is significantly shorter.


You see the same thing with the image below where the walls are significantly shorter than the walls you are talking about. If you were going to take over this city you would only need to get into the City Gates and then lay siege to the structure you are talking about. There would be no need to scale those walls. Let them stay in and rot.

The picture below shows exactly what I'm talking about. This is a picture was created based on the accounts of when the city was captured. If you have a 40 ft wall. and a 100ft wall. Why would you take the ladder's to the 100ft wall? If someone asked you to make a ladder then why would assume that it's for the 100ft wall? Why would you attack the strongest point of all the walls there?

 

[Flying Crane]

What you are looking at are not the walls that they would have used ladders on. If you look at this historical map (above) you can see that the curtain wall is significantly shorter.


You see the same thing with the image below where the walls are significantly shorter than the walls you are talking about. If you were going to take over this city you would only need to get into the City Gates and then lay siege to the structure you are talking about. There would be no need to scale those walls. Let them stay in and rot.
View attachment 23368

The picture below shows exactly what I'm talking about. This is a picture was created based on the accounts of when the city was captured. If you have a 40 ft wall. and a 100ft wall. Why would you take the ladder's to the 100ft wall? If someone asked you to make a ladder then why would assume that it's for the 100ft wall? Why would you attack the strongest point of all the walls there?


View attachment 23369

I’ve been there. Stayed in a Bed and Breakfast inside the walled town. Cool place.

 

[jobo]

I’ve been there. Stayed in a Bed and Breakfast inside the walled town. Cool place.

What you are looking at are not the walls that they would have used ladders on. If you look at this historical map (above) you can see that the curtain wall is significantly shorter.


You see the same thing with the image below where the walls are significantly shorter than the walls you are talking about. If you were going to take over this city you would only need to get into the City Gates and then lay siege to the structure you are talking about. There would be no need to scale those walls. Let them stay in and rot.
View attachment 23368

The picture below shows exactly what I'm talking about. This is a picture was created based on the accounts of when the city was captured. If you have a 40 ft wall. and a 100ft wall. Why would you take the ladder's to the 100ft wall? If someone asked you to make a ladder then why would assume that it's for the 100ft wall? Why would you attack the strongest point of all the walls there?


View attachment 23369

because thats the town and not the castle, the castle is the big bit at one end, that looks like a castle

i see your not dennying that it has 100 ft walls anymore

 

[JowGaWolf]

i see your not dennying that it has 100 ft walls anymore

The wall that you are talking about is not the same wall that me and others, including the guide in the video are talking about when we say that ladders are used. The fact that you can't get to the building that you are talking about until you breach the lower wall should tell you something.

Your point that ladders weren't often because the wall was too high has been shown as incorrect... Because the curtain wall is the first wall that you have to breach. That's the wall in which people will use ladders. The wall that you are showing is not the Curtain wall.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I’ve been there. Stayed in a Bed and Breakfast inside the walled town. Cool place.

It looks like it would be a cool place in modern times. lol. Not sure I would want to hang out their back then lol. I'm assuming sewage system = pig or bucket that gets dumped out in the street lol.

I'll have to hop on Google earth and check it out

 

[jobo]

The wall that you are talking about is not the same wall that me and others, including the guide in the video are talking about when we say that ladders are used. The fact that you can't get to the building that you are talking about until you breach the lower wall should tell you something.

Your point that ladders weren't often because the wall was too high has been shown as incorrect... Because the curtain wall is the first wall that you have to breach. That's the wall in which people will use ladders. The wall that you are showing is not the Curtain wall.

the lower wall does not go all the way roubd the big wall ?????

we in england call towns with a wall round them a walled town, we have lots of them, chesyer and york for two, they are not castles, they are towns with a wall roubd them

thats a walled town it is not the castle,

if you go, they let you walk roubd the town for nothing, they charge you to go in the castle, there proof right there

if you capture the town you still havent captured the castle, you still need to put them under siege,im not sure why yoyr still arguing, you were wrong, youve never even seen a castle or a walled town

 

[JowGaWolf]

I’ve been there. Stayed in a Bed and Breakfast inside the walled town. Cool place.

So I'm back from my Google Earth travels. Yeah you can definitely get over the curtain walls with a ladder. Easily. That building is 3 level but looks to be about the same height as a modern 2 story here. The wall in the back ground is part of the curtain wall. Cars and building show a good size reference.

What was the best thing you like about visiting there?

 

[jobo]

So I'm back from my Google Earth travels. Yeah you can definitely get over the curtain walls with a ladder. Easily. That building is 3 level but looks to be about the same height as a modern 2 story here. The wall in the back ground is part of the curtain wall. Cars and building show a good size reference.

What was the best thing you like about visiting there?

View attachment 23372

that a wall round the town

 

[JowGaWolf]

the lower wall does not go all the way roubd the big wall ?????

we in england call towns with a wall round them a walled town, we have lots of them, chesyer and york for two, they are not castles, they are towns with a wall roubd them

thats a walled town it is not the castle,

if you go, they let you walk roubd the town for nothing, they charge you to go in the castle, there proof right there

if you capture the town you still havent captured the castle, you still need to put them under siege,im not sure why yoyr still arguing, you were wrong, youve never even seen a castle or a walled town

You are the one who can't tell which size wall that you would use a ladder on.

 

[jobo]

You are the one who can't tell which size wall that you would use a ladder on.

im the one that said you wouldnt use a ladder at all, coz the castle wall are 100 feet high,

 

[Flying Crane]

So I'm back from my Google Earth travels. Yeah you can definitely get over the curtain walls with a ladder. Easily. That building is 3 level but looks to be about the same height as a modern 2 story here. The wall in the back ground is part of the curtain wall. Cars and building show a good size reference.

What was the best thing you like about visiting there?

View attachment 23372

That would be a big ladder for men to carry, but yes, I’m sure that’s how it would be done. Ladder would need to be robust enough to hold several men at a time with full gear, so would be quite heavy. I’m sure they weren’t waiting for the first man to get off at the top before the next begins. Get as many running up as possible. But a team could put it up. Would need to space the base away from the wall a bit, makes it harder to push it off from the top. I’d say the ladder could be as long as 60 feet, maybe 50.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That would be a big ladder for men to carry, but yes, I’m sure that’s how it would be done. Ladder would need to be robust enough to hold several men at a time with full gear, so would be quite heavy.

I didn't read your entire post when I started posted so I didn't change the same thing because we hitting on some of the same conclusions. I think we are coming to the similar points because we both may be thinking. "how would I storm a wall with a ladder." Right now most people are probably thinking of someone running up to a wall with a battle cry and climbing it. I think more planning went into than that. If someone told me to take a ladder and scale that wall, kill the soldiers on it and open the gates, then I'm automatically asking myself "Which is the best way to do this without getting everyone killed?" I rather go in with 50 men and have 30 men on the wall with me, than to go in with 20 and only have 10 on the wall fighting with me.

Everything was heavy back then simply because it was made from wood. Compared to some of the other equipment used, the ladder was probably the lightest of them all. If you send a team out to carry the ladder the you can probably get out to the wall fairly quickly. I'm thinking 9 or 10 strong soldiers to run hauling butt to the wall with the another group close behind so even is someone gets tired. A fresh person can come in to replace the tired ladder carrier. The weight of the ladder also makes me think stealth might have been used. You would want to get to the wall before the defenders were in place. If you take a look at the curtain walls and the area that they cover then calculate how long it will take to get someone to the wall that you were about to climb up, then the time required can be considerable especially if you can get closer to the building without being noticed.

If stealth was used then you are looking at a lighter soldier. You could have heavier soldiers follow be hind. I'm thinking this because sound may be an issue unless the nightlife there is fairly active. People manning the wall would probably patrol the wall. Towers at the wall are probably stationed. Even during the day it may take time for people to actually reach the location.

The raising of a heavy ladder would be challenging but not impossible Especially if you have 9 or 10 strong soldiers to do it plus backup.. The video below is a 65 foot wooden ladder. If Seige ladders were wider then you can have more people walking it up. In the video there's only 2 walking it up. Double the width of the ladder and you may get 4 pushing? Whatever the solution was. I'm sure they had a good way to raise the ladder quickly.

Ladder would need to be robust enough to hold several men at a time with full gear, so would be quite heavy.

They probably only need each rung to hold 1 person. at a time. That would easy to do with such a heavy ladder. Those climbing the ladder would probably be light armored soldiers. It doesn't make sense to send up heavy armor soldiers up like that. If speed is of value. The sooner you can get up the ladder the sooner you can deal with the few soldiers that are on the wall patrolling.

If someone is attacking at multiple spots at the same time, then it makes it that much easier.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That would be a big ladder for men to carry, but yes, I’m sure that’s how it would be done. Ladder would need to be robust enough to hold several men at a time with full gear, so would be quite heavy. I’m sure they weren’t waiting for the first man to get off at the top before the next begins. Get as many running up as possible. But a team could put it up. Would need to space the base away from the wall a bit, makes it harder to push it off from the top. I’d say the ladder could be as long as 60 feet, maybe 50.

Being that it's said that the average curtain wall was 30 - 40 feet, I wonder if there was some engineering challenge that happens after that. Was it a weight baring issue that if walls were built after a certain height then the towers would need to be closer together to support it?

I'm also thinking about the ladder guys again. When were they actually sent in. Do you send those men in early in the battle or later in the battle after you have starved the city? Do you send them up the wall against a strong army or do you send them up a wall after they are weakened?

 

[Deleted member 39746]

much of castle defebce and attack is just Hollywood, it just dodnt happen that way .
there are varius reasons for this, one being the castles wete well built to the pont they were inpenatrable, just how long do you thonk these ladders were? have ylou seen the size of some of these castles, the standard ploy to tunbel under the walls so they fell down, rather than try and climb over them

second being stuck in a casle was a really bad idea, unless reibforcements were on the way, those under seige inverably lost, not through attack but by staravation, there no good reason to launch a deterimd attack, when you can just sit and wait, the longest seige on record in the uk was 6 months, most didnt last a couple of weeks before they surrendered, a suprisngly high % of these being in the 1600s when they had gun powder, so not many achers

3, a disticted lack of enemies, dover castle was seiged by the french, who some how manged to loose and carlisle castle 10 times by the Scottish, other than that it was just a couple of civil wars worth

As long as needed was usually how long they were made. A sige would be muilti faceted anyway, as the easiest way in (through the doors) generally was met by a funnel and a death march to the next doors through procjectiles. And even if it wasnt, you would then still have archers etc shooting and dropping things on you, dropping things on your men through the gatehouse and then a group of men the other side of the doors.


As always, i can easily make the point, waiitng might not be the best as another army could be coming to help them which would be bigger than yours, you might not have the food for it etc etc, in regards to assualt sthe above is apt. Castles generally had a more reliable stock of food than the army sigeing it, as they were made with carp ponds etc in, water stores and also stores in general. (the amount and qaulity depends on the fortiication in question, but the best built ones did have food sources inside the fortiications and the keep did have a stockpile in it/water store in it so the keep could last a little longer if the outside fell)

Then we also have siege engines in this to bring down walls and the like and Cannon was used in the later medievil peroid. So this is very muilti faceted and if i recall, you would generally be ina better state of affairs inside espeically if the enemy didnt have any means to actually attack you ie siege ladders, catapults, cannon etc. Especially so if you had a dock and could just sail in supplies and they didnt cut that off. You do also have to account for skeltaon crew fortifications and the enemies army(ies) actively attacking and able to come back and break the sige, which may outnumber your army. Actually, if he foritifcation has a dock to a river thats not tidally locked, it will outlast your army, as it can just keep brining in more and more food and poretioanlly men to counter attack. So you would need to assualt or challange the ships.


Also @JowGaWolf I did watch that video recently which is pretty funny, and it reminded me that they did indeed brace ladders and have devices etc to stop ladders being knocked off as easily as is made out.

Addendum: i dont think we decided on a specfic place or time for the example of siges, this is more generalities unless one is settled on, but that doesnt negate the previous statements being generalities.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I think they may have used segmented ladders sometimes? So you put several ladders together and fasten them to the castle in some way to create several going up the length.


Also there is a engineering cap to the height you can make walls, that and the economics of making fortifications. They need to be near the resources you plan on using, further away the more it takes in both time and money. You need to pay for transport then the labouring of mining and also the labouring of assembly.

For the above as well, i have seen several film/media siges have the assualt come after a long blockade or a several day blockage and attacking the fortiifcation with catapult/archers. so they very much wait until the defenders are weakened, damage as much wood as possible then launch the assualt after a bombarment/siege of some time. (as i mentioned above the choice is not always yours for when you assualt a castle, then they could always counter assualt if they have more men)

 

[jobo]

As long as needed was usually how long they were made. A sige would be muilti faceted anyway, as the easiest way in (through the doors) generally was met by a funnel and a death march to the next doors through procjectiles. And even if it wasnt, you would then still have archers etc shooting and dropping things on you, dropping things on your men through the gatehouse and then a group of men the other side of the doors.


As always, i can easily make the point, waiitng might not be the best as another army could be coming to help them which would be bigger than yours, you might not have the food for it etc etc, in regards to assualt sthe above is apt. Castles generally had a more reliable stock of food than the army sigeing it, as they were made with carp ponds etc in, water stores and also stores in general. (the amount and qaulity depends on the fortiication in question, but the best built ones did have food sources inside the fortiications and the keep did have a stockpile in it/water store in it so the keep could last a little longer if the outside fell)

Then we also have siege engines in this to bring down walls and the like and Cannon was used in the later medievil peroid. So this is very muilti faceted and if i recall, you would generally be ina better state of affairs inside espeically if the enemy didnt have any means to actually attack you ie siege ladders, catapults, cannon etc. Especially so if you had a dock and could just sail in supplies and they didnt cut that off. You do also have to account for skeltaon crew fortifications and the enemies army(ies) actively attacking and able to come back and break the sige, which may outnumber your army. Actually, if he foritifcation has a dock to a river thats not tidally locked, it will outlast your army, as it can just keep brining in more and more food and poretioanlly men to counter attack. So you would need to assualt or challange the ships.


Also @JowGaWolf I did watch that video recently which is pretty funny, and it reminded me that they did indeed brace ladders and have devices etc to stop ladders being knocked off as easily as is made out.

Addendum: i dont think we decided on a specfic place or time for the example of siges, this is more generalities unless one is settled on, but that doesnt negate the previous statements being generalities.

but thats not actually reflected in british history ,

seigies last exactly as long as the food supply in the castle, which in the olden days wasnt very long as even if you had food, you couldnt store it for very long

how many carp are in this pobd and how many archers, troops and civilions are you trying to feed with them,, exactly, where is the fresh water comming from ?, they dient have sterile bottles of buxton spring stacked up.

where is the other army comming from, it took a very long time to raise an army, suppy it and walk from london to carlise, or london to mid wales, if renforcements were few days away, your in clover, if not your in a spot of bother

feedong the seiging army is also an issue, but they can at least go and raid the local farms and get fresh water

perhaps you can give a few historical examples rather than films, to support you point, castles were as you piont out exceptional diifficult to breach, which is largly why they tended to try and starve them out

im not saying that the use of seige machines never happen, just that it was by no mrans the norm

 

[Deleted member 39746]

but thats not actually reflected in british history

One issue there, i am not citing specfically British history. If the entitre argument is reliant on "oh but the britions did this or didnt do this" Then its flawed as i never cited British history nor are my refrences to spefic isntances but a general note. Nor are my 2 pictured weapons even from europe

seigies last exactly as long as the food supply in the castle, which in the olden days wasnt very long as even if you had food, you couldnt store it for very long

Unless the sige was broken by a outside army, the defenders assualting the sigers or the sigers assualting the castle. Some castles had docks so could just ship in more food if they wished. And you could push persihable food to i think 6 months. You can salt pork and it would last 6 months i am going to call it, could last a year maybe. Dried food i think can last up to 6 months. (pending on what food and conditions of storage)

where is the other army comming from, it took a very long time to raise an army, suppy it and walk from london to carlise, or london to mid wales, if renforcements were few days away, your in clover, if not your in a spot of bother

Where ever, wars are not isolated things, if a war is declared you have a army formed and fileded and the enemy generally has enough time to amass one, presuming this is immediately on the outset of a war and not some years in with several roaming armies each side.

I am pretty sure most fortifications had a few days food, so that means the siges will have to assualt the foritifcation before the army arrives to attack them if they wish to take the fortification. ergo ladders or other engines/means.

feedong the seiging army is also an issue, but they can at least go and raid the local farms and get fresh water

Pending on the type of fortification, and how big it is, a lot of animals etc are normally brought in as the enemy arrives, for a motte and baily there is a small town included in the fortification anyway which could house more food maybe a small farm in it. So the enemy army could raid what ever has not retreated to the fortifications.

perhaps you can give a few historical examples rather than films, to support you point, castles were as you piont out exceptional diifficult to breach, which is largly why they tended to try and starve them out

I never used a film or media as evidence of my point, i was refuting your point about it always being flawed as shown in film when it isnt. And yes they were(pending on the fortifiaction in question, my usage of castle is to mean fortfication), but you didnt have the choice of waiting it out all the time for previously stated reasons.

im not saying that the use of seige machines never happen, just that it was by no mrans the norm

The context of the orginal point was if a assualt happened this was how they would do it, not a statement on how often it happened or where. the specfics would depend on where and when for how often assualts happened, palisades were a common fortification and the scope of that was to largely restrict access into the town. They are easier to assualt than then pinncle of castle design, and in the same vein if you had cannon a old stone wall will be easy to bring down as its not made to deflect the shot.

Makes it a pointless argument as i never went into specfics as to where and when or a statement on how often. and it would be dishonest to not acknowledge assualts did happen and pending on time peroid and location would be how often they happened hisotrically. In the discussion of if say X weapon was to push down siege ladders, stating "they would usually starve them out" has no real bearing on the point. Its for what ever reason they decided to assualt and this weapon was for the assualt.

the peroid in question here is a good 1,000 years long. (i belive the medievil peroid was cited, so its a good 1,000 years if i got my maths right, around there anyway give or take some years)


Addendum: For the two fortifications i have seen, both could be sieged with ladders, i dont know feet, but the ladders wouldnt be that long. If ladders become completely irrelivent, then you would try and scale another way, use a sige tower, knock a hole in the wall or just go through the gate, or any combination of them if you were to assualt.

that would be a motte and baily and a stone walled town. Stating all walls are 100 foot high seems null, as not all were and wooden palisades were the most common fortification, and if you couldnt get trees that high to make ladders, surely you couldnt to make wooden stakes?

Addendum 2: Yes i am also aware of the trend of building a wall around another fortification to stop the defenders from fleeing and to also make a counter attack harder, that takes time and effort to make as well.