Article 8 Time/Age limits POOM/DAN

[d1jinx]

Ok.... so I'm late with thee chime in here.... but....

What I think people are missing is these are the "MINIMUM Requirements", not the ONLY requirement. As a certified KKW master/instructor you are to promote using your judgement ensuring quality students. Your standards should be set higher than the Minumum standards set by KKW. KKW expects the person performing the promotion, In good faith, that students should only be promoted when ready. But as we know too many promote for money and retention. and not for quality. we all seen the pathetic BB's running around... it's not thier fault or KKW... its the instructor who promoted them.

Can you imagine if the KKW "spot checked" your students for quality, and penalized you if they didnt meet the standards.... that would be great. Instructors should be held accountable.

 

[Gorilla]

What am I misreading....it states clearly one you reach 18 you can turn your 4th Poom grade to Dan grade

 

[ETinCYQX]

At minimum time in grade, I think I'll be 25 for my 4th Dan. I got my 2nd this past June and my 1st the June before that. Had just turned 20 when I got my 2nd and 19 when I got my 1st. I am hoping around June of next year for 3rd Dan.

In my experience the 5th Dan in our school tends to be held off on. I hope to be teaching a lot and to have done some traveling to train before I grade to 5th Dan.

 

[msmitht]

....

 

[Twin Fist]

an 18 year old 4th dan is a joke

a sad, unfunny joke

sure there are exceptions, but they are jsut that:
exceptions

the thing is, everyone thinks that they (or thier kids) are the exceptions

they are by and large not

and the thing is, they dont need to advance at all, since we are talking about KKW kids, you dont need to ever advance past BB to compete.

so there is only one reason left to promote children to higher levels of BB

money

 

[Tez3]

I think it depends on what 'use' the black belt is for. In competitions it's, hopefully, a good way to put people in brackets obviously along with weight. Competitors are going to be on the younger side so 3rd, 4th Dans etc aren't going to be a problem, what will be a problem is these young Dan grades instructing, that's where the maturity and experience in dealing with people comes into play.
The drinking and being a soldier shooting people doesn't come into play here or in many countries where you have to be 18 to be do both.

 

[ETinCYQX]

an 18 year old 4th dan is a joke

a sad, unfunny joke

sure there are exceptions, but they are jsut that:
exceptions

the thing is, everyone thinks that they (or thier kids) are the exceptions

they are by and large not

and the thing is, they dont need to advance at all, since we are talking about KKW kids, you dont need to ever advance past BB to compete.

so there is only one reason left to promote children to higher levels of BB

money

This is one area I agree with you in regards to KKW. While I know some excellent 2nd-3rd poom junior athletes, there should be more to a high dan grade than competition. I would prefer that the poom ranks didn't transfer or maybe counted towards a shortened time in grade or something. I don't have a problem with poom ranks, we all know what they represent, but 4th Dan at 18 I can't wrap my head around.

 

[Twin Fist]

unless i am mistaken Tez, after BB, there is no seperation based on rank, so 1st dan or 12th dan, no difference for tournaments....

I think it depends on what 'use' the black belt is for. In competitions it's, hopefully, a good way to put people in brackets obviously along with weight. Competitors are going to be on the younger side so 3rd, 4th Dans etc aren't going to be a problem, what will be a problem is these young Dan grades instructing, that's where the maturity and experience in dealing with people comes into play.
The drinking and being a soldier shooting people doesn't come into play here or in many countries where you have to be 18 to be do both.

 

[Twin Fist]

This is one area I agree with you in regards to KKW. While I know some excellent 2nd-3rd poom junior athletes, there should be more to a high dan grade than competition. I would prefer that the poom ranks didn't transfer or maybe counted towards a shortened time in grade or something. I don't have a problem with poom ranks, we all know what they represent, but 4th Dan at 18 I can't wrap my head around.

me either.

it makes the puppy inside my heart weep

 

[ETinCYQX]

I am curious how many reach third and fourth dan with the KKW.
Any percentages available, of students in general or those who reach 1. Dan?

How are those ranks treated? I`ve always seen 3rd and above as an instructor`s instructor, full Sensei who understands the whole system if you will.

in my experience what you're talking about happens around 5th Dan KKW. Usually.

 

[andyjeffries]

I am curious how many reach third and fourth dan with the KKW.
Any percentages available, of students in general or those who reach 1. Dan?

According to Kukkiwon stats, the following number of people reached the relevant dans:

1 POOM 114,303
2 POOM 16,919
3 POOM 2,091
4 POOM 238


1 DAN 76,640
2 DAN 23,791
3 DAN 9,987
4 DAN 3,987

How are those ranks treated? I`ve always seen 3rd and above as an instructor`s instructor, full Sensei who understands the whole system if you will.

From my experience this has changed. When I was younger it was always seen as 4th Dan is Master rank, with the privilege to promote students up to 3rd Dan Kukkiwon. 1st Dans and above could open their own school, teach their own students, but would need a 4th Dan to promote them.

In recent years, this seems to have changed to "4th Dan is kinda-Master, but more Junior Master" and our national governing body requires examiners to be 5th Dan and the national syllabus only considers 5th Dan to be Master (4th Dan is labelled "Instructor").

I don't believe the Kukkiwon considers there to be a big jump from 4th to 5th in this same way (e.g. new title, new privileges, course requirements, etc - there doesn't seem to be any privileges conferred to 5th Dans that aren't to 4th Dan, except rank they can promote to).

My experience is mainly UK-based, so this may be different in the USA or Canada.

 

[chrispillertkd]

In recent years, this seems to have changed to "4th Dan is kinda-Master, but more Junior Master" and our national governing body requires examiners to be 5th Dan and the national syllabus only considers 5th Dan to be Master (4th Dan is labelled "Instructor").

Why does your national organzation, which is affiliated to the KKW and gets rank through the KKW, deviate from the KKW's guidelines on who can or cannot promote? I though that the KKW was the organization that set the standard for KKW Taekwondo. This just seems odd to me, especially considering the recent conversations about KKW ranking, age, etc.

Pax,

Chris

 

[andyjeffries]

Why does your national organzation, which is affiliated to the KKW and gets rank through the KKW, deviate from the KKW's guidelines on who can or cannot promote? I though that the KKW was the organization that set the standard for KKW Taekwondo. This just seems odd to me, especially considering the recent conversations about KKW ranking, age, etc.

Well, that's a good question.

They also issue their own dan certificates when you pass a promotion test which is "deviating" from the KKW guidelines.

I can't answer on their behalf and to express my opinions may be politically impolite. I can say that I disagree with these policies and would prefer if Kukkiwon procedures were the only ones required to be followed for any grading.

I can also say that my mater instructor explained it to me as they were trying to increase standards so by requiring a higher grade to promote kup students and requiring all students to grade at the national dan tests rather than by individual instructors (as the KKW allows) they were better able to maintain higher standards. They issue their own Dan certificates because they prefer to get them in people's hands rather than suffer the long wait for Kukkiwon certificates (I am aware of people are years late with getting their Kukkiwon certificates).

Personally I am aware of the speed of getting Kukkiwon certificates back directly from Korea, but I'm just passing on what he told me.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I can also say that my mater instructor explained it to me as they were trying to increase standards so by requiring a higher grade to promote kup students and requiring all students to grade at the national dan tests rather than by individual instructors (as the KKW allows) they were better able to maintain higher standards.

But the level of standards has nothing to do with the rank of the person who is testing the students. I've seen tests run by some pretty senior dan ranks that passed students who would've failed at the schools of lower ranked instructors, for instance. If people are interested in higher standards then they should actually set higher standards and expect them to be followed, IMNSHO. I'm not saying you have to be an Olympic hopeful to get 1st dan, but remembering all of your patterns and performing them with snap and power would be a good start. That and the realization that some people are simply not going to qualify for some ranks because they will not develop the required ability.

But to get back to the larger issue, if your national association is issuing KKW rank why do they have a problem with what is, presumably, KKW standards? If they need to improve standards then they are saying either 1) people haven't been meeting KKW standards (which are pretty minimal from what I have s een, albeit as an outsider), or 2) KKW standards are too low in the first place (which makes me wonder why they bother with KKW dan certification in the first place).

Personally I am aware of the speed of getting Kukkiwon certificates back directly from Korea, but I'm just passing on what he told me.

Heh, yeah. Do you have to pay extra for the national organization's certificate? If not then it seems like it's just a matter of needing to hire someone in the office to process the paperwork faster! (Frankly, I think the KKW system of having anyone of a certain rank be able to test and process rank is the best one. Centralization on a national level will always lead to people having to wait a long time for their certificates. I don't know why the KKW lets national organizations, in effect, by-pass their regulations and make things more cumbersome for people, but that's just me.) If you do have to pay for the added benefit of getting a dan certificate faster then it's probably just a matter of wanting more money (and hey, all organizations have overhead that needs to be met, but they should just be up front about it and not blame the KKW for being slow).

Pax,

Chris

 

[andyjeffries]

But the level of standards has nothing to do with the rank of the person who is testing the students.

No argument here.

But to get back to the larger issue, if your national association is issuing KKW rank why do they have a problem with what is, presumably, KKW standards? If they need to improve standards then they are saying either 1) people haven't been meeting KKW standards (which are pretty minimal from what I have s een, albeit as an outsider), or 2) KKW standards are too low in the first place (which makes me wonder why they bother with KKW dan certification in the first place).

I would imagine the answer is "1" and their answer to "2" is that it's not KKW standards, but the standards of some KKW certified masters. They bother with KKW certification because they are the WTF MNA.

Heh, yeah. Do you have to pay extra for the national organization's certificate?

You pay a grading fee which includes the cost of your next Kukkiwon certificate you are due (if you are behind with KKW rank compared to your MNA rank) and includes the MNA's certificate for the grade you test for.

If not then it seems like it's just a matter of needing to hire someone in the office to process the paperwork faster! (Frankly, I think the KKW system of having anyone of a certain rank be able to test and process rank is the best one. Centralization on a national level will always lead to people having to wait a long time for their certificates. I don't know why the KKW lets national organizations, in effect, by-pass their regulations and make things more cumbersome for people, but that's just me.) If you do have to pay for the added benefit of getting a dan certificate faster then it's probably just a matter of wanting more money (and hey, all organizations have overhead that needs to be met, but they should just be up front about it and not blame the KKW for being slow).

They have got someone doing it faster now, but I believe there will be the backlog of people being way behind on their KKW certs for many years to come.

 

[Rumy73]

Simple as this to me. Train. Train hard and gain knowledge. Don't looked to be called anything. If the org bestows the title of Master so be it. If someone calls you Master so be it. If no one calls you Master so be it. If you respect someone that is called Master then you will call them Master. If you do not respect someone that is labeled Master then you won't call them Master.

Either way it is a sign of respect and if you respect them for what they can do, then you will call them Master, if not then you won't. If you don't respect them you most likely wouldn't even associate with them to even call them anything one way or another.

Just my take on it.

Atc, I respect the kkw system to the point of giving the proper public show of respect. Intellectually I disagree but leave it off the mat, so to speak.

 

[Gorilla]

Allot of discussion around youth BB and Dan/Poom rank....I am currently traveling with the AAU/USA National Team there are several 3rd Dan/Poom and not one 4th...so the world is not crumbling down just yet!!

 

[Master Dan]

Well in Oh Brother Who Art Thou when he takes the guys out to explain about the business of selling the gospel while they are eating he takes a tree limb and begins to beat them saying ( It's All About The Money Boy's) Ive had 3,000 students in the last 18 years and only 7 have black belts no child can have one unless they can survive against the criminals and rapists here why bother they just become a target. My students have beat and defended them selves against felons and large groups to live another day belt and rank means nothing with out that

 

[RTKDCMB]

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01#08


Thoughts on article 8?

Fast or Slow or Just Right!!!!

Its is my interpretation that a Martial Artist is eligible for promotion to 4th Dan @18 years of age as long as he received his 3rd Poom by the age of 15. If not then the minimum age requirement for 4th Dan is 21 years of age!!!

Personally I think that Kukkiwon standards for minimum promotion time are far too short, far shorter than just about any other martial art. After 1 year of being a 1st Dan students barely understand what it is to be a black belt let alone be anywhere near ready to go up a Dan. To give you a little perspective in the Rhee Tae Kwon Do system that I study (which is a martial art of self defence not a sport in any way) we only have one junior black belt rank which has only been around for the last 15 years or so. After that the junior black belt must then grade for his or her 1st Dan when Master Rhee decides that he or she is mature enough, both mentally and physically to compare to the adults. It is more about attitude, maturity and technique than age, some junior black belts do not get promoted to 1st Dan until their 20's and the youngest ever 1st Dan was only 13, but he was unusually tall for his age, had the right mental attitude and could do everything the adults could do but that was an extremely rare case. After being a 1st Dan, typically for a few years, you can become an instructor and only after then could you be considered for promotion beyond 1st Dan. To go from 1st to 2nd Dan usually requires at least 15 years of training, teaching and promoting the art but can be much longer. 2nd to 3rd Dan is usually after about 5 or 6 more years and you will not find any 4th dan Regional Master instructors in Western Australia who have had less than 30 years of experience.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

We wait two years to go from first to second dan, three years from second to third, four years from third to fourth etc, which I feel is about the right time in grade. If you can get a first dan in two years, then get to second dan only one year later, you end up with second dans who have only three years training which is too short in my opinion. I have been in tkd seven years and am almost eligible now to go for my second dan and that seems about right to me.