I would say that they are practical. As practical as any other method is at times, whether it's a specific hand strike or kick. However, as with the rest, it's all conditional depending on times and circumstances.
Are pressure point strikes practical?
- Thread starter JBrainard
- Start date
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
As I have said before... those who claim to have mastered the "No Touch Knockout" have sucessfully done one thing... taught thier students how to fall down.
ppko
Master Black Belt
I am going to put my two cents in on this topic (all of you knew I would), are pressure points reliable yes they are. Its already been said but aim small miss small. Does this mean that I am searching for points, no I practice hitting the points in certain scenarios ie kata or just anything to make it easier for me to do it naturally in a real life situation. I will never fish for something that isnt given to me. There seems to be a lot of people that think that is all we depend on or beings they dont work on everyone they are useless, that is there oppinion my personal oppinion is that I practice them so if I hit it and it works the\n great fights over if I hit it and it doesnt just keep hitting till the fight is resolved,
searcher
Senior Master
Sorry if this has been mentioned, but I did not read all of the posts. IMO, just because the size of the pressure point is the size of a quarter, it does not mean I am going to strike with a weapon that is the size of a quarter. If you hit a PP with a large weapon it can still get the desired result. It does not mean that they are always going to be effective, no one technique is, but they can definately be an enhancement to a person's arsenal.
In the violent chaos of an actual fight, the people that can hit small targets accurately typically get paid six or seven figures to do so. The small targets they hunt are known as the head, chin, etc. Even the best strikers in the world can't land every shot they throw, most land less than half. Thinking that one could strike a pressure point in the chaos of a violent encounter is wishful thinking at best.
Manipulating those points while grappling is much easier, but still difficult when going live. Plus I've seen very little effect from them when the encounter gets violent and adrenaline gets pumping. What works in the dojo in a rough sparring session is different from what happens when adrenaline gets pumping and you're really trying to hurt the other guy.
See Ryan Parker of pressure point karate fame in his UFC fight versus remco pardoel. Parker was trying to manipulate pressure points after the fight hit the ground. Remco didn't seem to notice as he continued to pursue the choke hold that forced parker to tap out. Only one example I know, but it's a pretty high profile one that is easy to come across.
Manipulating those points while grappling is much easier, but still difficult when going live. Plus I've seen very little effect from them when the encounter gets violent and adrenaline gets pumping. What works in the dojo in a rough sparring session is different from what happens when adrenaline gets pumping and you're really trying to hurt the other guy.
See Ryan Parker of pressure point karate fame in his UFC fight versus remco pardoel. Parker was trying to manipulate pressure points after the fight hit the ground. Remco didn't seem to notice as he continued to pursue the choke hold that forced parker to tap out. Only one example I know, but it's a pretty high profile one that is easy to come across.
This is the key here....PPs are a "force multiplier" they are difficult and not as effective if used alone. But if used on conjunction with another attack, they can multiple the technique that you are using. The other key with pps is redundancy. If you're aiming for a small area, attack in such a way that you have multiple changes to hit. For example, if aiming for the pressure point behind the tricep, hit at such an angle with your forearm so that you have more surface area attempting to hit the target and therefore more than one chance.
Brother John
Senior Master
I really like this perspective!
The application of pressure points is a very interesting field of study, but you ask the right question. THE question that we should all ask of Each aspect of our training = IS it a 'fruitful', profitable, field of study. Does it work when I NEED it to work.
Here's how I see it.
#1: People who RELY on pressure points to save the day are in for a RUDE shock. I've known a few who acted as though their study of the pressure points were MORE important than the practice of their art itself. ODD...! That's like spending TOP dollar to buy the absolute best bullets you can get your hands on, and then at the last minute getting the cheapest used gun you can find and then barely ever polishing your drawing / shooting skills. Backwards priorities. Bullets and their quality are important, but if you're delivery system isn't consistent, accurate and dependable.....they mean ZILCH. (zilch..... there's a word you don't hear every day)
#2: The study of pressure points, Kyusho, Dian Xue, accupoints, nerve activation points..... whatever you and your instructor likes to call them, IS a very very useful facet of martial arts knowledge!! I truly believe in them. BUT, I do not think that they are THE end-all be-all "Master Key" that many make them out to be. Effective & useful....but only in their proper perspective as one marble in your bag of marbles.
#3: Those who've studied the points (by whatever name) can tell you that they come in clusters. Often times you can target a certain 'zone' and end up affecting one or two simultaneously. We ALWAYS aim at something when we strike or grab or .....anything. Nothing is "General", everything is intentional. So if I can "Target" the tricep tendon when attempting to apply an "arm-bar"......that's a smallish area, but I'm still targetting it........yes....even during your garden variety adrenal dump. In training my strikes I also like to target such things as the temple or the solar-plexus.....etc. etc., so IF I can target such smallish anatomical points like these ((and MOST do))....why not target the nerve/kyusho/accupoints??? Not all that different. KNOWING them and how to apply them for your ends is the first step. Once you have that... the rest comes out in the wash.
#4: Many of these "points" lie directly over vital anatomical targets that ALSO produce a beneficial effect in combat. IF you target the pressure point / kyusho known as "Tripple Warmer 11" (TW-11) you'll notice that it's directly in the center of the triceps tendon. SO....while you're applying your basic arm-bar, if you know where and how to ALSO make use of this 'pressure point' in the process.....you'll also be affecting the tendon. OUCH!!!!! Makes your arm-bar all the more effective, takes out the need to use THAT much force to obtain a significant reaction. (((In other words: Worth your time to know and DO))
To sum up:
Don't expect your study of Kyusho, pressure points, accupoints....etc., WHatever...... to "Save the day" or to be one of the BIG Key ingredients!! BUT: It is very worth your time!
You wouldn't build a formula-1 race car and put them on low grade wagon wheels....
Your Brother
John
Thunder Foot
Brown Belt
I personally believe the study of pressure points, gives the practictioner an advantage. I agree that in a SD situation, it is difficult to land a pressure point strike, grab, etc. as previously stated. However, I believe to fight with pressure points in mind, increases the practitioner's probability of landing a crippling blow and also increases the number of targets for a person. Of course it takes a tremendous amount of skill to be continually successful with it, and those cases are reserved for the "crem de la crem" Artist in my opinion. :asian:
searcher
Senior Master
The way I look at no touch is this, If I can hit so fast that the retraction of my strike makes it look like I lightly hit them or that I missed. But I don't see to many guys who are that fast these days. Does this thought make sense or is it only in my head?:daf::idunno:
Archangel M
Senior Master
I REALLY enjoy the arts that teach students to hit various points in sequence during a fight.
This is where the line can be blurred between adding pressure points to enhance your self defense and altering your self defense just to add pressure points which can get you in a lot of trouble.
Cheers
Sam:asian:
A good point. In a striking art, if you target the big targets that are anatomically weak located along the body's center, whatever you hit will work... if you hit hard. If you know pressure points, they may fall into place too... basically as a bonus, or "target of opportunity", but not as a primary objective. The same goes for any tricky technique. Better to keep it simple and solid.
I read something once, probably in a Terry Pratchett novel, that seems to apply. It went something like this, "Any point on a body is a pressure point... if you use enough pressure. Like, for example, a ton of bricks."
Em MacIntosh
3rd Black Belt
Most strikes are automatically intended to hit weak spots. A hook punch to the base of the jaw under the ear, low hook to the floating ribs, jab/cross to the nose/xyphoid process/groin. Kicks to the knees or groin or a stomp on the foot. Roundhouse elbow (mawashi empi) three ribs under the armpit. Not all of them are necessarily pressure points but it's the splitting of hairs that's irrealistic, IMO. You don't intend to hit someone in the abbs or forehead but you're dealing with a moving target. The reason not having to hit someone too hard is appealing is because it minimizes the risk to the knuckles and to a lesser extent the damage done to the opponent. Pressure points (or weak points in general) are ideal for this purpose. If you're talking about typing invisible letters on the back of someone's neck causing them to do the funky chicken and pass-out, well...
OP
OP
JBrainard
Senior Master
I've been told that in the morning I can execute this technique using only my breath.
Mike Hamer
Green Belt
Wow, its awesome that I came acrossed this topic, as I am attending a PP seminar this Sunday!
Thank you all for your knowledge and input on the subject, very helpful!
Thank you all for your knowledge and input on the subject, very helpful!
This is a very interesting thread. As has been stated we attack any vulnerable point. If we have a working knowledge of pressure points then that strike can be more effective, even if we don't hit the exact spot, if we land a strike in the immediate vicinity. If you train aikido or ju-jutsu you will recognise that many of the locks and manipulations actually are utilising pps even though they are not taught to the students as such. Knowing where the pp is can make a huge difference to the effectiveness of your technique.
As for the no touch knockout. It is not a practical thing for protection against attack but has anyone considered that it could be a training tool to demonstrate ki (or chi)? I train with a master who utilises ki and believe me it does work but it's a long learning process.
We learn the basics, we train the katas, then we then work on the finer points to make our art more effective.
As for the no touch knockout. It is not a practical thing for protection against attack but has anyone considered that it could be a training tool to demonstrate ki (or chi)? I train with a master who utilises ki and believe me it does work but it's a long learning process.
We learn the basics, we train the katas, then we then work on the finer points to make our art more effective.
Brother John
Senior Master
With the first paragraph, I couldn't agree more!!! Well said too.
With the second paragraph: I disagree. I've met folks who'd said they could do this 'trick' and it never had an effect on me or my friends who also wanted to see it work. I'll just leave it to "I'll believe it when I feel it"....and I've already tried more than once, and I didn't. So for me, if something / someone can come and show me differenty, I chalk it up to a parlor-trick. A gimmick.
Your Brother
John
I couldn't agree more about the people who say they use ki but can't demonstrate it. Apart from Dillman videos I haven't seen anyone else claim to do the no-touch knockout. That is I believe a parlor-game, not necessarily a trick. Because I haven't experienced it personally, and I find it hard to comprehend, doesn't mean it does not exist. I have seen rock climbers perform 'impossible', gravity defying, feats.
What I have seen, and felt, is the application of ki in training. My son introduced me to an aikido teacher about three years ago. This man not only demonstrates ki to anybody who wishes to experience it but also teaches it. It is a long slow progress. I have been training it for just over two years and am just starting to achieve some successes. It is an awesome journey. To be taken down with ki is a little bit like sitting down on a chair only to find that some bastard has pulled it away. You loose any intent to resist and cannot keep your feet. If anyone is coming to Australia and visiting Melbourne, I would invite you to come and train with us to see for yourself.
My background is Goju Ryu Karate and karate practitioners might know the 'Goju' means 'hard and soft'. It has taken me 30 years to find the 'soft'. If any of you have seen the Russian systema, you will have seen Mikhail Ryabko and Vladamir Vasiliev performing techniques using ki. I have taken the liberty of attaching a link to an aikido site article which goes some way towards explaining what I couldn't begin to explain.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=510
Also a YouTube video that shows Vladamir defending against multiple attackers using the softness of ki.
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/systema-vladimir-vasiliev/2308335705/?icid=VIDURVSPR04
When I first became interested in learning ki I went searching the internet and stumbled onto this forum. The sentiment was so negative to this area of training, probably because of the perception of DKI, that I lurked rather than posted. Personally I find Dillman's work incredibly valuable, especially for pressure point information.
Among karate-ka there is a perception that kata is a waste of time, especially for self defence. Now that I can understand (as distinct from perform) ki and vital point attacks, I can start to appreciate the massive amount of information hidden within the katas and it leads to a fascinating study that I will never complete in my lifetime. Incredibly, most of the aikido techniques (which derive from ju-jutsu) are included in the kata, unrecognised and not trained. Obviously this is from the past era of karate-jutsu which is now re-emerging.
What I was really looking for was a forum to discuss ki with other martial artists who may have been fortunate enough to find someone who can not only demonstrate ki, but actually teach it. (No parlor-tricks, no BS)
Thank you to all who made it to the end of this rant and an extra thank you to Brother John for giving me the opportunity to post these words. :asian:
Last edited by a moderator:
