Are Kenpo (any kind) and Taijiquan the Same?

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Just to bring this back to the top of the thread, could any of the kenpo folks here post their opinions? I'm most especially interested in the opinions of the EPAK folks...

Thanks!

I voted in the "your kidding category." They arn't the same any more than "karate" and "kung fu" are the same. Are there similarities sure? Same, no.

Originally posted by chufeng
Who here has heard of Sub Level 4 Kempo?
Is this the Kempo reserved for those over forty? Or is it a legitimate sub-branch of Ed parker's Kempo?

haha over 40? nope. Without starting a flame war, sub level 4 is what Ron Chapel ( a Parker black belt) calls what he does and teaches. Its a sub-branch of EPAK in that sense.

 

[ob2c]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
It has been said... that kenpo... is essentially the same as Taijiquan...

"You've got to be kidding"

They share some similarities, but are totally different arts.

Stances: TCC considers even weight distribution to be an undesireable condition, other than in transition. AK's Neutral Bow is an evenly distributed stance. Further, TCC works hard on staying rooted. AK "floats", or does a lot of its' footwork on the balls of the feet. AK does, however, work on keeping its' base. So there is a little similarity.

TCC considers AK and all external arts to be static. They are dynamic- their motion never stops. The next move starts before the last is completed. All movement starts in the muscles of the lower back, and these are in constant motion. AK does have better flow than other arts, so there is a little similarity. But it isn't quite the same concept.

Yielding: both TCC and AK use this principle. But it is one of the primary concepts and principles in TCC.

AK tends to alter and control the opponents dimensions with our strikes and stand up grappling. TCC tends to sense his force and use it against him. This is a difference of emphasis, as both styles do a lot of both. A lot of similarity here. Both use sensitivity, TCC more than AK.

There are a lot of similar strikes and natural weapons. But the footwork and quite a few of the strikes are done differently.

There is an internal component to most, if not all, external arts. Grappling, for example, has a serious internal component. So does Ving Tsun. I think AK definately has this. But in TCC it is all internal, all the time.

Just some of what I see in the two styles. I'm a beggining student in Yang Tai Chi Chuan fa, and an intermediate student of American Kenpo. So there is obviously a lot more depth to both arts than I understand. But that's a start in comparing the two. Hope it helped.

 

[Michael Billings]

Great post ob2c, there is lots more, but you were specific and concrete. This is a hot thread, or was, over on the Tai Chi thread between Ron Chapel and the Internal Art's guys.

-Michael

 

[yilisifu]

Nicely put!

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by ob2c
"You've got to be kidding"

Thank you very much, ob2c, for that insightful explanation. Too bad someone who professes to have been one of EP's direct students couldn't do as well as an intermediate student in "commercial" (Doc's term, not mine) kenpo did.

Way to go. That answers a lot of questions, and I agree with your analysis 100% (as it relates to the taiji part - I have no way of knowing regaring the kenpo part).

Hey Doc, that was simple, wasn't it...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
If I were to misspell every single word in English that I wrote here, I suspect native English speakers would, in due time, tire of my misuse of the language commonly spoken here

No, we'd just assume that you were American.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

--Dave.

(honest it was just a joke.....)

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
No, we'd just assume that you were American.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

--Dave.

(honest it was just a joke.....)

Y'know, if it weren't true, I'd probably be pissed... Funny, too.

Nice one!

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Kenpodoc

One of Mr. Parkers great contibutions was to change the Language of EPAK to American English and decrease the number of these silly linguistic arguments.

Jeff

Agreed he did change the language, to english, to get rid of the confusion between a front kick and a mae geri. But he didn't use or suggest we use incorrect spelling when refering to the Asian word. For example, he never said it was a my gairee. He said it was a front kick!

--Dave

:asian:

 

[ob2c]

Well, my reply was my understanding of the arts I practice at this time. I know little to nothing about SL-4 Kenpo. I do know they do a lot of cavity strikes, which is an internal practice. I may disagree with Dr. Chapel (I don't know what was said, but apparently our opinions differ on this). But I'd certainly give a lot of consideration to his opinions as he is far more experienced. And I'd love nothing more than to get to where my TCC, Kenpo and grappling merge into one art! But I'm a long way from even thinking about that right now. (116 smilies here and I don't see a sigh :shrug: )

 

[Matt Stone]

At first, I would have been inclined to consider Doc's opinions and theories had he opted to provide some degree of comparison as you did.

However, his only attempt at clarification was to state and re-state who he had trained with over the years, as if this list was supposed to impress me into submission.

I agree that many arts eventually cross into other realms that are typically considered to be the desmesne of some particular art, usually far removed from the art in question. "External" becomes "internal" as hard, tense strikes are relaxed and loosened, while "internal" becomes "external" as bodies are hardened and conditioned. Et cetera, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

Be that as it may, I was curious how a less esoteric comparison was being drawn between kenpo (allegedly of the EPAK lineage) and taijiquan. No details were given to support the hypothesis. The fact that such a lack of supporting information failed to come from so high ranking and allegedly well trained a personage led (and continues to lead) me to believe that the hypothesis is bunk.

I could be wrong, but until evidence comes to light to prove it, I figure I'm not.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[Kenpodoc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Agreed he did change the language, to english, to get rid of the confusion between a front kick and a mae geri. But he didn't use or suggest we use incorrect spelling when refering to the Asian word. For example, he never said it was a my gairee. He said it was a front kick!

--Dave

:asian:

Tai chi is not an incorrect spelling. It is a perfectly acceptable American spelling of a chinese word. I agree that it is not the academic spelling but you cannot legislate language (Although the French have tried for years.) Language is a glorious ever changing product of our culture.

As an after thought I have noticed that most versions of Taijiquan taught in our nations Health clubs and Y's have little to do with Taiji's Asian roots and are best referred to as Tai chi.

Jeff

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Kenpodoc
Tai chi is not an incorrect spelling. It is a perfectly acceptable American spelling of a chinese word.

It is acceptable only by those who don't know better, or by those who are content in their mediocrity to not care enough to do better than settle for what is commonly done (even when known and shown to be incorrect).

I agree that it is not the academic spelling but you cannot legislate language (Although the French have tried for years.) Language is a glorious ever changing product of our culture.

Sew, iff eye wuz to supell awl mi werds jist thuh waigh eye thawt eye culd, wuldnt u thingk thet purhapps, jist perhapps, eye shuld git with thuh purogramm an sturt 2 supell thum currektlee?

My point? The paragraph I just wrote was "not the academic spelling," but it should be painfully obvious that it was flatly incorrect. So do we sit back and allow such inadequacies to go unaddressed? Why? To spare the individual the momentary embarassment of having his shortcoming exposed? Rather to have a moment of embarassment than a lifetime of ridicule for being inept...

As for the "glorious ever changing product of our culture," I suppose you mean the ongoing American tendency to use foreign words, incorrectly, for their own purposes with no concern for their proper meanings nor pronunciation. Sure, other countries and languages do the same. And they are just as wrong, as far as I'm concerned. In Japan, baseball is besuboru. Sure, it makes sense to them and accomodates their phonetics, but it is still wrong.

As an after thought I have noticed that most versions of Taijiquan taught in our nations Health clubs and Y's have little to do with Taiji's Asian roots and are best referred to as Tai chi.

On this point you and I agree fully. "Tai Chi" is that exercise done with no eye toward its martial roots and applications, but with only "health and wellness" in mind. Admittedly, I have taught such a class, but did my damnedest to instill in the students a respect of the martial side... The first class (and at the start of every class, especially with new students), all the students learned that the response to my question "Taijiquan is first and foremost...?" was "MARTIAL ARTS." While the students I had in Japan did not practice the martial applications of the form, quite a bit of time was spent in understanding (through demonstration) what was going on in each posture.

I prefer to practice Taijiquan, personally... But sometimes you have to reach out to those who don't know any better and help them to understand...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[Kenpodoc]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Sew, iff eye wuz to supell awl mi werds jist thuh waigh eye thawt eye culd, wuldnt u thingk thet purhapps, jist perhapps, eye shuld git with thuh purogramm an sturt 2 supell thum currektlee?

My point? The paragraph I just wrote was "not the academic spelling," but it should be painfully obvious that it was flatly incorrect. So do we sit back and allow such inadequacies to go unaddressed? Why? To spare the individual the momentary embarassment of having his shortcoming exposed? Rather to have a moment of embarassment than a lifetime of ridicule for being inept...



Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

My point is Tai chi is a generally accepted in American English and redily intelligible to most. Interestingly "Tai chi" is in my 1985 "American Heritage Dictionary" And "Taiji" is not. Taiji may be politically correct but it contains no more useful information.

Your spelling above carries no historical precedent and is a specious argument.

We will just have to disagree.

Jeff

P. S. Doc

Personally I'd like to hear more of what you have to say.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Kenpodoc
Tai chi is not an incorrect spelling. It is a perfectly acceptable American spelling of a chinese word. I agree that it is not the academic spelling but you cannot legislate language (Although the French have tried for years.) Language is a glorious ever changing product of our culture.

As an after thought I have noticed that most versions of Taijiquan taught in our nations Health clubs and Y's have little to do with Taiji's Asian roots and are best referred to as Tai chi.

Jeff

The scariest part of all this, is that your attitude as expressed above, is the politically correct one.
I don't know about the US but here in Aust. phonetics is a politically correct way of doing things. The unfortunate part of phonetics is that when you reach university and you need to look a word up in the dictionary, you will never find it because you don't know how to spell it.

Just because everybody does it, doesn't make it right!

Oh and on a lighter note;
How come PHONETICS isn't spelt the way it sounds?

--Dave

:rofl:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Kenpodoc
Your spelling above carries no historical precedent and is a specious argument.

We will just have to disagree.

I don't need historical precedent. Have you ever studied Chinese language formally? The official method of transliteration of Chinese phonetics into a romanized format is Pinyin. Wade-Giles used to be used, and was the common format for a long time, but has been replaced by Pinyin.

Period.

There are a lot of things that are generally accepted in other countries, but Americans have this tenacious habit of expecting folks in other countries to cater to American refusal to cure their ignorance. Why should I settle for generally accepted when I know it is incorrect? Maybe the lesson of "would you do it if all your friends did it" never really sank in for some folks... It did with me, and just because everyone does something (though incorrect) doesn't mean I have to fall in line just to conform...

Continue to disagree with me. Whatever. Your adherence to your ignorance will only weigh you down, while it affects me not one whit. Your opinions carry no historical precedent, and your specious arguement in favor of mediocrity speaks louder than any rebuttal I could make.

Enjoy.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[Kenpodoc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
The scariest part of all this, is that your attitude as expressed above, is the politically correct one.
I don't know about the US but here in Aust. phonetics is a politically correct way of doing things. The unfortunate part of phonetics is that when you reach university and you need to look a word up in the dictionary, you will never find it because you don't know how to spell it.

Just because everybody does it, doesn't make it right!

Oh and on a lighter note;
How come PHONETICS isn't spelt the way it sounds?

--Dave

:rofl:

I didn't recommend phonetic spelling. I merely stated that Tai chi is an acceptable spelling in American English. It's also a lot of fun to tweak people who have a grand opinion of themselves.

Jeff

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Kenpodoc
I didn't recommend phonetic spelling. I merely stated that Tai chi is an acceptable spelling in American English. It's also a lot of fun to tweak people who have a grand opinion of themselves.

Jeff

Tai Chi is the phonetic, and not the correct spelling and you know it.

As for tweaking people, that puts you in the same class as senseii mike and we can all hope you end up with the same treatment.

And if you are referring to Matt Stone as having a grand opinion of himself, then I fear you are sadly mistaken. At no time either here or in private messages to me, has he put himself across as anything but a reasonable and intelligent person. One we could all learn quite a lot from. Hopefully one day he and I will meet and I would be quite happy to call him friend.

I get the feeling that the character, Adrian, from the book, The Chroncles of Clovis, by Saki, was speaking of people such as yourself when he said, "I love Americans, but not when they talk French. What a blessing it is that they never try to talk English."

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Kenpodoc
I didn't recommend phonetic spelling. I merely stated that Tai chi is an acceptable spelling in American English. It's also a lot of fun to tweak people who have a grand opinion of themselves.

Jeff

It is nice to see that folks with vocabularies as seemingly large as yours acting in such a mature fashion. (most simple folks like me use "false," "wrong," "incorrect," or even "untrue" rather than "specious," but then most simple folks aren't trying to impress others with how little they know, either...) Your profile says you are a physician... I would think that someone with that kind of background would find other entertainment, rather than attempting to bait people on the internet, but then I guess it takes all kinds...

Dave -

You speak far too well of me. When you have met me and we have trained together, then you will have enough info to make a call on what kind of person I am. For all you know I am a first rate a$$hole. While I thank you for the kind comments, don't worry about chiming in to defend me from guys like this. I am starting to see a trend in the kind of people that take a disliking to me, and they are all cut from the same cloth.

I have been thinking about some vacation plans for next year... Can you recommend anything in Oz of particular merit? I meant to get down that way when I was living in Japan, but it just never happened...

And the only grand opinion I have of myself is the amount of sushi I can eat. Anyone will tell you that beyond my ability to consume comestibles (Kenpodoc, that means food... but the etymology is Middle French, from Medieval Latin comestibilis, from Latin comestus, past participle of comedere to eat, from com- + edere to eat. )

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
And the only grand opinion I have of myself is the amount of sushi I can eat.

Betcha I'd (figuratively) kick your butt at eating steamed snow
crab legs vs. you eating sushi. You would be in awe at my
abilities, boy!

 

[Matt Stone]

I don't mean to flame, but with the training I have received by my wife (who is Filipino), I'd smoke your proverbial bags if it came down to just eating crab...

COME GET SOME!!!

If you ever make it up this way, consider the gauntlet dropped!