Appropriate Self Defense

[Drose427]

First, can you respond to the Personal Message that I sent you in regards to our meeting up for some friendly sparring?

And here, if you're saying that it doesn't have to be kicks to the neck, then WHY did you tell me about how PRO MUAY THAI FIGHTERS can KO with high kicks to the neck in the first place then, and then imply that a "NEW" person should use such high kicks?

I already know that SD, Military, etc. teaches strikes to the neck. That's why I clearly said that "neck strikes rarely work" as my argument and not that they never work.



Wait so you're saying here that a NEW GUY, should strike the NECK instead of the EYES or NUTS because the EYES and NUTS are less effective targets than the NECK? Are you serious?

And if "Adrenaline and Alcohol can let the body do amazing things", then wouldn't they do the same to the NECK? Do you see how absurd your arguments are?

And why do you keep bringing up Bouncers and LEO's. There's a ton of LEO's and Bouncers training at the MMA gyms that I train at. I also bounce once in a while for cash and fun, this ain't no big deal. I even said that adrenaline will lessen the effects of neck strikes.



That was a highlight reel, But if you watch Foreman's fights, he does throw a lot of Haymakers. You still said this about Haymakers"

"A "haymaker" isnt Simple Boxing. Thats a wild punch, a lack of technique. Quite far from simple.boxing, which is the most refined punching style in the world. The gym I train at as well as the other in my area dont teach it. A haymaker is an idiotic waste of energy that opens you right up."--Drose427

So why do you keep dodging this? Tell me why does one of the biggest ICON of Boxing, not only throws Haymakers, but he trains such technique and is known to cause KD's and KO's with them?



You obviously aren't a fighter nor an advanced student, so of course unorthodox techniques shouldn't be taught to you. But you don't need to teach someone a Haymaker, it's merely a wide, looping hook and I already told you this.



There are videos of this on YouTube.

Once again, you're wrong. And show me where I said "telling their students, new or old, to just eye gouge and groin shot."?

Can you show me where I said this? Otherwise you're lying or have a severe reading problem.



I question whether you train at all, also, because usually you'd have to be at least 12 years old to train MMA.



I feel the same way about you. The only way to find out is in July, so I'm still waiting for you to answer my PM.

I brought up pro fighter because they get hit in the groin as well. Its not a match ender. Nor is it going to stop an assailant.

I've seen forman fight, and no he doesnt throw a lot of haymakers. Particularly for his weight class foreman threw a lot of accurate, disciplined strikes.

And striking nerves and arteries in the neck, connected to the brain, does a hell of a lot more damage than an eye gouge or groin shot. Its the same as a liver shot, like it or not, theres a high chance youre going down.

Contrary to most Self Defense beliefs, hitting someone in the throat or such, is not that brutal and rarely stops the fight. Eye gouging works and so does nut kicks, but just the same would be a KO with one punch as they all seek the similar goal of incapacitation (even temporal) to end the situation,.

Except this doesnt result in an incapacitate

Show me one video of jabbing a knife attacker working, one.

This video right here explains why thats bad.
Thinking it isnt shows a misunderstanding of knife defense,

Heres a bunch more, and what a surprise, they arent saying to box a guy......

Never in my life, and several people here from various backgrounds, have I ever seen or heard of a gym saying that. Only you. You reasoning in the other thread as to why we didnt advocate was, "Well you're boxing sucks" Well you must be the best boxer in the US if you think you can do that....or even teach it, thats simply irresponsible...

The reason people question you having any training at all, is you say you train MMA, but your concepts of SD are off. Instead of explanations of technique you deflect, and when we've explained why your technique is bad, you just say "well you guys must suck"

Your beligerence shows a youthful ego,

Your personal shots, show a lack of discipline,

and your lack of concepts show a lack of training.

Im changing gyms soon, this is where Ill be at in the summer. Youre welcome to come any day and time

The nearest LA Fitness is 3 hours away, Im not roadtripping over a keyboard warrior.

MID Ohio Valley BJJ MMA Academy

 

[FriedRice]

Im changing gyms soon, this is where Ill be at in the summer. Youre welcome to come any day and time

The nearest LA Fitness is 3 hours away, Im not roadtripping over a keyboard warrior.

MID Ohio Valley BJJ MMA Academy

Whew finally. I'm glad I went straight to the ending and not bother with reading the rest. I hope you don't mind as it's getting nowhere. That area is not a problem. We can meet at this Planet Fitness. I have a Blackcard membership and can go to any PF and bring 1 guest for free. You can be my guest.
Planet Fitness
104 Gihon Village Parkersburg WV 26101
304.893.9800

 

[RTKDCMB]

A "haymaker" isnt Simple Boxing. Thats a wild punch, a lack of technique. Quite far from simple.boxing, which is the most refined punching style in the world. The gym I train at as well as the other in my area dont teach it. A haymaker is an idiotic waste of energy that opens you right up.

And not to mention just about the easiest strike to defend against.

 

[RTKDCMB]

My advice would be to avoid trouble whenever possible. If you can talk your way out of it or walk away do so. If you end up having to defend yourself and you have tried to avoid using force or someone just attacks you without warning then you have to assess the situation and act accordingly. If you do that you shouldn't have to worry too much about getting into legal trouble. Of course it is entirely possible that you can do exactly the right thing and still end up in court and that is incentive enough to try to stay out of trouble.

If someone is trying to start a fight with you then try to stay calm and remember that you have training to deal with physical attacks and use any deescalation techniques you have learned. If you get attacked just remember your training and only do what is necessary to end the threat and nothing more. Don't be overly concerned with how much you hurt your opponent as your first duty is to your own safety.

As far a physical techniques go you have to use your own judgment and be aware of your surroundings. For example if you are on concrete or the road you might not want to slam your attackers head to the ground or you might try for body strikes rather than head strikes.

Some targets:

Throat - hard to get to can have any effect from making them angry to making them dead.

Neck - Easier to get to than the throat, a good hard knife hand strike to the side or back of the neck would probably drop most people

Eyes - usually used as either a last resort or a distraction. A serious eye injury can end a fight b ut that would be more of a life or death situation as causing a permanent eye injury in a minor altercation can land you in hot water. A minor eye injury from a poke can be annoying but will not usually stop an attacker. I was poked in the eye during sparring once or twice and all I did was close one eye and kept going.

Solar plexus - A good hard accurate shot there will drop most people but will not usually cause too much damage.

Groin - If you kick someone in the groin hard enough you will drop them temporarily but not always. I have been kicked in the groin during sparring a number of times without having to stop.It is one of those targets that if its wide open go for it then use a finisher. There are dangers for the defender kicking to the groin, most people will natural protect their groin when it is being attacked (funny story; My Hapkido instructor had me on the ground once to demonstrate a groin stomp and I instinctively closed my legs and ended up getting him in the groin instead). Also you can break toes or damage your foot or ankle if you catch a knee instead.

The level of success you have will depend on your accuracy and how hard you hit each target. You have to use your own judgment as to the level of force you use and what techniques and strategies you will employ and that will just come with training and experience.

 

[RTKDCMB]

And if you had to, a decent fighter can just toy with someone in the street with jabs and/or just walk away. It's risky and can also threaten your own life, but it's also fun.

I'm sorry but that is just wrong on many levels.

If you are toying with your attacker it is no longer self defense.You are also leaving yourself vulnerable to getting surprised by a lucky shot or his friends coming to his aid and getting charged with assault.

 

[RTKDCMB]

'Toying' with someone on the street is just plain dumb.

Some of us enjoys it. It's obviously not for you, just like sparring for KO's in the gym or fighting in the ring for fun, because it takes balls.

If by balls you mean stupidity then I would agree.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Interesting to hear counter arguments that strikes I though would be seriously injurious might not be - anymore than a strong jab/cross would be. I just assumed punching someone in the throat would result in more serious injury.

While a pressure point and vital target for anyone looking to down another human being, it would still talk considerable force to effect death or serious injury. A jab/cross alone may not do it. The human anatomy is wonderfully resistant and can will surprise you with how much of a beating it can take before caving under the abuse.

That being said, and all other things held equal, you'd need a clear, clean shot at the throat with maximum pressure concentrated across a small impact zone, like an elbow or a strike with the sharp of your hand. The less spectacular way of doing it would be applying a lot of pressure to the windpipe. Chokes and "ripping" grappling pulls are efficient ways by which this may also be achieved.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Contrary to most Self Defense beliefs, hitting someone in the throat or such, is not that brutal and rarely stops the fight

It's not a self defense situation but getting hit in the throat can be brutal:

Mexican wrestler dies following match with ex-WWE superstar Rey Mysterio - Yahoo7

 

[Touch Of Death]

I am still fairly new but getting a wide variety of techniques from simple boxing to more brutal techniques. Some of the things I am trained in I know would seriously injure someone.

How does one learn to measure ones counter measures in self defenses in the heat (panic? fear?) of a real attack? I mean if a drunken guy throws a swing or two - how do you control to use simple blocking, and a few counter jabs, or restraint moves, versus responding out of fear or muscle memory and use moves that would be better served on a truly life threatening response?

I suspect even in a witnessed self dense situation, you might personally, morally, or legally not want to over counter? Is it just working on understanding your attacker well enough, or always starting lower and escalating as needed? My instructors are pretty good about this - occasionally saying "you might not want to use this last move, unless you have to" but I just dont get how you handle this decision in the heat of an attack.

Get used to being hit. It helps.

 

[Buka]

I brought up pro fighter because they get hit in the groin as well. Its not a match ender. Nor is it going to stop an assailant.

I've seen forman fight, and no he doesnt throw a lot of haymakers. Particularly for his weight class foreman threw a lot of accurate, disciplined strikes.

And striking nerves and arteries in the neck, connected to the brain, does a hell of a lot more damage than an eye gouge or groin shot. Its the same as a liver shot, like it or not, theres a high chance youre going down.




Except this doesnt result in an incapacitate

Show me one video of jabbing a knife attacker working, one.

This video right here explains why thats bad.
Thinking it isnt shows a misunderstanding of knife defense,

Heres a bunch more, and what a surprise, they arent saying to box a guy......

Never in my life, and several people here from various backgrounds, have I ever seen or heard of a gym saying that. Only you. You reasoning in the other thread as to why we didnt advocate was, "Well you're boxing sucks" Well you must be the best boxer in the US if you think you can do that....or even teach it, thats simply irresponsible...

The reason people question you having any training at all, is you say you train MMA, but your concepts of SD are off. Instead of explanations of technique you deflect, and when we've explained why your technique is bad, you just say "well you guys must suck"

Your beligerence shows a youthful ego,

Your personal shots, show a lack of discipline,

and your lack of concepts show a lack of training.

Im changing gyms soon, this is where Ill be at in the summer. Youre welcome to come any day and time

The nearest LA Fitness is 3 hours away, Im not roadtripping over a keyboard warrior.

MID Ohio Valley BJJ MMA Academy

Whew finally. I'm glad I went straight to the ending and not bother with reading the rest. I hope you don't mind as it's getting nowhere. That area is not a problem. We can meet at this Planet Fitness. I have a Blackcard membership and can go to any PF and bring 1 guest for free. You can be my guest.
Planet Fitness
104 Gihon Village Parkersburg WV 26101
304.893.9800

Gentlemen, let's stay civil and away from any posts that might be misconstrued as challenges. We're all passionate here. We all need to keep that passion in check.

 

[FriedRice]

Gentlemen, let's stay civil and away from any posts that might be misconstrued as challenges. We're all passionate here. We all need to keep that passion in check.

Is it ok if it's a mutual desire for friendly sparring? He stated in post #13 that he wanted such in other posts way before I asked him for this friendly sparring, in this thread. Thanks.

 

[mwebb]

Responding to the original posting (after wading through the macho posturing), a couple of things come to mind:
1) As you're still fairly new, your muscle memory is going to respond to what you've known the longest...basics. You're not going to respond with the potentially dangerous technique that you learned last week or last month.
2) Use the "keep it simple" methods...block, evade, counter. If you can get a good kick to the lower leg in, that disrupts the person's balance enough for you to strike effectively, or just leave. A well placed kick to the knee is very effective and a lot easier than a muy thai kick to the neck.
3) When the situation is over...LEAVE. Don't hang around waiting for police or applause (or the drunk friends of the drunk who took a swing at you).

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Regarding the original question: it does help simplify things if you are willing and able to walk away from a fight, run away from a fight, verbally de-escalate or otherwise avoid a physical confrontation if at all possible. That means that if you are in a real fight, there's a good chance it's a serious self-defense situation where you are justified in using a fair amount of force to protect yourself. Even that isn't a guarantee though. If your grandpa with Alzheimer's has an episode and starts whacking people with his cane at the family picnic, you don't want to put him in the hospital. Being able to scale your force to the situation is a good thing.

For me, it's a matter of remembering my goal in a given situation and moving appropriately to reach that goal rather than doing any particular technique sequence out of "muscle memory." If I'm driving to the movie theatre, I take the appropriate turns to get there. I don't just blindly work the pedal and steering wheel combinations that take me to the grocery store. It helps if you train your martial arts techniques with an awareness of what the situational appropriateness for each one is. It also helps to do different sparring and/or scenario training drills with different objectives and "victory conditions", so that you have the mental flexibility to remember your current goal and work towards it rather than blindly performing techniques which are not appropriate to the situation.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Regarding the question of targets - eyes, neck, throat, and groin are all good valid targets. (Although attacking the eyes may not always be a good option for various legal, ethical, or practical reasons depending on the situation.)

My only objection is when people think that the eyes or groin are a magic "I win" button that automatically negate all the other factors in a fight such as size or positional dominance. You might win a fight with a single groin shot, just like you might win a fight with a single punch to the jaw. It's just not a good idea to assume that will always be the case. Just as with any other target, your odds will be much better if you develop the ability to accurately hit the target with speed and power while protecting yourself from counter-attacks.

 

[Buka]

"I win button".

Awesome.

 

[Sapphire]

Gotta say, these look an awful lot like haymakers to me! And if they beat Robert Downey Junior, they must be pretty darn useful! LOL.

But in reality, I totally agree with Tony above me. Your best bet is to be diligent with your training. Set aside some time OUTSIDE OF HOME to train. Think about it. The average class time in an MA school is anywhere from 30-90 minutes. There are 168 hours in a week. Even if you attend really good classes 3 days a week, you're still only spending at most 4.5 hours of your entire week on keeping yourself protected from an assault that you can't "just walk away from" (I definitely don't advocate sticking around for a fight if you have a way out). So make your training time sacred -- devote half an hour more to training, and not just working out, but going over combos and perhaps even getting a classmate to practice locks and throws and various situations with you.

Also keep in mind that you don't know who you're going to be assaulted by. Let's say you're at work and a coworker shows up piss drunk and upset at you for no reason. He has no inhibitions, and therefore, doesn't care if he knocks you out. Let's also say that he's done amateur boxing for quite a few years. That could make him more dangerous, or perhaps less dangerous, but the fact is that you don't know until it happens. And the way my Sifu puts it is: "when the time comes, you can't hit the rewind button to train for this situation."

 

[oftheherd1]

"I win button".

Awesome.

Yeah! I want one too.

First, to the OP - if he is still around. There is good advice in this thread, aside from the psudo-monkey dancing. The best in my opinion is to avoid a fight by leaving or talking your way out of it if possible. The second best is don't put all your eggs in one basket. I have seen excruciating pressure points that are not excruciating to all people. If you use a pressure point that has always worked and run across one of those people you may be in for a surprise if you apply it expecting that you have just ended a fight and can relax. It is the same for other strikes mentioned here; groin kicks can be devastating, but are very easy to defend. If your application of an eye gouge or throat strike is just a little off, due to your own inaccuracy or your opponent's avoidance movements, you may end up angering your opponent instead of taking the fight out of him. So don't stop fighting until the fight is over.

As to how to avoid hurting someone too badly, it is called control. When I first started learning TKD, that was what we were taught to practice and learn. Once we could control our point of maximum strength, it was only a matter of choosing the appropriate target, 1/4 inch from the opponent, or an inch inside the opponent. For some reason, that doesn't seem to be taught any more.

EDIT: I meant to add my opinion on unarmed knife defense. It is very dangerous. If you must engage, the best techniques are those that move the opponent in ways the opponent would not expect, if you can. Always practice, practice, practice. Ask practice opponents to try and disrupt your moves so you can learn what is possible and what needs more attention. Practice speed and accuracy. When you look at videos, study them well. There are problems with the three just above. Recognize them and decide what would need to be done to counter the problems. And the best defense, is not knowing your opponent had a knife, because you talked him out of his aggression, grated not always easy.

Always practice control for when avoidance isn't possible.

 

[crazydiamond]

You have a good point on what works on many people wont work on all, a few locks or pressure points or hits my instructors have taught don't work well on me - to their and my partners surprise. Even groin strikes may not work as effectively on some.