Applied Wing Chun is almost karate

[geezer]

Now, someone here else can make fun of "shotonoob,"....

Now that actually does sound defensive.


...reminds me of these famous words, c.1962 ....

 

[TSDTexan]

That rings true.

So then I take it kime doesn't necessarily involve that instant of tension at the end of each strike?

No. It simply means to fix a distance.

There shouldn't be any tension because there is no opposed muscles working against each other. "Braking, while under power".

With regard to striking, tension can only happen when you have opposing muscle or tendon groups both contracting at the same time. Tension = Tug of war.

Kime is to mentally decide or establish a set distance where your fist will stop.

You have to learn through striking how to actually hit that specific spot.

Done correctly group a muscles/tendons explosively cause the fist to travel to that target. But precisely an instant before arriving at the point past the set distance all Group A drivers disengage and cease power.

A fraction of that instant is total relaxation of group A. While at the same time a different group engages. Group B does not fight group A.
That would be tension.

When firing a strike into empty air.... group B is responsible for counteracting Inertial Forces caused by the punch.
Primarily to maintain balance, poise and structure.

When striking a solid target, power group B is for sinking the energy into the target without letting the strike become a push.

Punch retraction serves a number of functions.
I wont dive into punch retraction here...

But whether you want to send the energy the distance from the target's cheekbone to the back of his skull... or if you only want to send the energy only a few inches deep you will have to set a distance. (Kime) either way.

Elbows are moved one direction by the biceps and the opposite by the triceps. Now kime shouldn't be about using one set in opposition to the other. Ever.

Every type muscle provides power by means of contraction.
But not all contractions are tension.

There are two methods of muscle contraction or said another way... muscle contractions can be described based on two variables: length and tension.

Doing bicep curls is using elongation/delongation. Or muscle length.

 

[TSDTexan]

BTW all you WC guys... after watching that video by TSDTexan, what is your take on the Japanese concept kime as relating to the way you express your power when striking. Do you find that it relates directly to anything we do in WC ...or not?

I believe the description of kime In "Western terms" used in that video was "a short isometric neuromuscular contraction". In our branch we generally avoid any muscular contraction or "braking action" on the end of our punches Accordingly when "air-punching" we punch to full extension allowing the elbow to straighten. When bag hitting, we allow the bag to stop the punch, there is no instant of isometric contraction. So this seems different to me.

On the other hand, we do add upward wrist flexion as the punch reaches maximum penetration and release energy into the target. But this is essentially a forward jolt, not a tensing or momentary pulling back. Is it analogous to kime? It seems different to me ...but then I'm not a karateka. So what do I know. Any thoughts?

Re watch the video on the dancer. His kime was never about reversing a movement to go backward. Often his sudden stops instantly changed direction.

 

[Jake104]

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abyss? You mean you can't address my points....
[edit]

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I have no idea what substance is in "phobias" post. "True to roots yet sharpening techniques for combat?" Again, thinking one is better because you've learned how to 'improve' WC? So over-generalized. Again, sounds like a marketing program,Like that YT WC vs. Boxer vid. Phobius statement is so over-generalized that's adding what value?
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Every TMA artist is trying to improve. Every TMA artist is seeking to be effective in application. There's this big myth that somehow American's in the 21st Century have devised something better than, some improvement to TMA.... as opposed to really understanding the historical Master's teachings.... Again, an effective marketing program, I'm sure.
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Good luck with that....

????huh??? Yes I have no idea of what you speak??? You confuse me? Sometimes i think I agree or understand you, then you loose me? Sorry, but hopefully the feeling is mutual??

 

[geezer]

@Jake104 --I said pretty much the same thing a couple of pages back:

I don't know. I might be interested in some of his points ...if only I could understand him. Guess that makes me clueless...

...So, Shoto, how about a little clarification? I'd sure appreciate it.

All I got in return was this:

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You've got defensive written all over you post....

I hope you get a more satisfying answer.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Then the ONLY appropriate response would be

 

[ShotoNoob]

Sounds like someone I should not take seriously...

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If you say so....

Find a "real" Wing Chun school and you will see that it is... you have 1 experience and you now feel you know all there is to know about Wing Chun.... alrighty then

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Putting words in my mouth.... never said that.

And for the record...Traditional Chinese Martial arts, including Wing Chun....there are no belt ranks...have a nice day

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Oh, and your experience speaks for all CMA schools.... Your first response fits yourself.

Sounds like someone I should not take seriously...

 

[ShotoNoob]

This is my experience as well...no belt ranks...just get better or get hit a lot!

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Yeah, who needs a manual or curriculum....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Odd. Most people find me mildly offensive. Of course in Wing Chun we prefer simultaneous offense and defense!

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Right, WC is much more economical in motion that my traditional karate style... so I guess I should say defensively - offensive..? Nah I'll stick with my original post....

 

[ShotoNoob]

"There are no (over) commited strikes in wing chun."
This principle means a distance has been set for the maximum for a given strike. This is the essence of kime.

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That would be my impression also....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Then the ONLY appropriate response would be

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Cartoons. The mentality of your student population? Right on....
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Of course cartoons is better than using colored belts... an improvement your improvement over those other western schools....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Now that actually does sound defensive.


...reminds me of these famous words, c.1962 ....

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Or it could mean "take the bag off your head..." let's see which one???
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EDIT: ROFL
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EDIT2: Tnx for hosting (acknowledging) my commentary....

 

[wckf92]

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Yeah, who needs a manual or curriculum....

Manuals or curriculums have nothing to do with "ranks"...

 

[ShotoNoob]

Manuals or curriculums have nothing to do with "ranks"...

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Brilliant. Do you do any thing other than find fault?
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EDIT: What, no cartoon?
EDIT2: ...or read half the sentence...?

 

[ShotoNoob]

I'm having so much fun, here's a super suggestion.... let's have that WC doesn't work against the boxer WC instructor I posted earlier; pair up with this karate-like WC stylist.... perhaps along the lines of the OP. Whaty'd say?

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Beats a cartoon, Danny T, wherever you went....
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EDIT: 1st plus, no belt rank...

 

[geezer]

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Cartoons...
Of course cartoons is better than using colored belts... an improvement your improvement over those other western schools....

Cartoons are great, but I prefer pancakes over colored belts. Have you ever trained under a 9th or 10th Pancake Master? They don't have to wear their pancakes. They show their pancakes in the way they move!

 

[geezer]

I'm having so much fun, here's a super suggestion.... let's have that WC doesn't work against the boxer WC instructor I posted earlier; pair up with this karate-like WC stylist.... perhaps along the lines of the OP. Whaty'd say?

Normally I'm not a fan of "Master Wong" but something like this approach could work, especially if you are also good in the clinch and at grappling. It kind of reminds me of John (Kung fu Wang) Wang's "Rhino" or "Big Fist" entry. I'd like to get his opinion on this.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Cartoons are great, but I prefer pancakes over colored belts. Have you ever trained under a 9th or 10th Pancake Master? They don't have to wear their pancakes. They show their pancakes in the way they move!

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Flattened me like a pancake...

 

[ShotoNoob]

Normally I'm not a fan of "Master Wong" but something like this approach could work, especially if you are also good in the clinch and at grappling. It kind of reminds me of John Wang's "Rhino" or "Big Fist" entry. I'd like to get his opinion on this.

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Well what I like about Master Wong is he harkens to a street fighting mentality. He's also very candid about what can go wrong. A reality tester of sorts....
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I think also he gives a good recount of WC tactical principles, which again are more complex compared to traditional karate's as a whole. For instance, he talks about WC @ distance as well as infighting. That other instructor I posted vs. Mr. Experienced Boxer somehow had the notion that WC stand in a sort of limited space with a static guard.... hence essentially couldn't close the distance on a boxer.... Master Wong dispels all than kind of rigid thinking nonsense. Master Wong leverages off of tactical mobility, the way all TMA should.
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Being a Laszlo kinda of fellow, Master Wong is a bit rough in his art for me. Having said that, I think he provides a good preview window into the art, particularly given most aren't going to attain the Crane kung fu base style & strength which is very analogous to Bona-fide WC.
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The OP talked about applied WC is almost karate.... Hey, MASTER WONG makes a great jumping off point for that theory or supposition, IMHO.
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Master Wong has really grown on me over time.... I kinda like the guy....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I'm thinking of posting another vid, but let me say this for now.
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Traditional karate is generally more physical & aggressive, direct in it's tactics like Tiger style kung fu.
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Wing chun is more tactically diverse and angular, expressing a strong defense blended into offense. Truly powerful WC is an internal energy powered style, analogous to Crane Kung Fu.
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Of course these are broad, descriptive generalizations.... This is what my study of TMA has brought me to conclude....