Application of TKD poomsae in SD

[terryl965]

Can I ask a syupid wuestion to all you high and mighty top rank Instructors and I am being as serious as I can here. Why does every single person say they are WTF 9th and WTF 8th and WTF certified? I mean come on the WTF does not certifesd anyine except for one brief year, all of the certification comes from the KKW in Soul Korea. This has been a pet peave of mine for twenty five years and it just tears me apart when people does not use the correct terminology when talking about certification.

If I am wrong can one of you find folks please pasye and copy a WTF certificate that is different from the KKW so I can personally see one. It can be PM'ed to me if you like.

Now back to the decussion of Poomsae and applications, we the current old timers with more than twenty years in this so called Art of our have seen the up and down roller coster that is called poomsae make changes after changes and never really seeing proper teaching to all the refs. let alone all the instructors out here. Untik we come together as one and are all thought the exact same way, people are just going to interpate what they believe and there instructors believe, does it make it wrong no just different.

I enjoy TKD as a way of life and a wat to protect whether or bot a certain instructor see eye to eye with me does not change my training or teaching, the count and movements havenot been altor only the common sequene of the way they are presented for competition. I beleive we are all comparing apples jsut a different take with them some like it right off the vine with very little eveer being change and some like the sliced up version while other like apple sauce. It is still all apples in the long run.

Have a wonderful and great day.

 

[YoungMan]

Terry,
I agree with you. It also irritates me when someone claims WTF certification, especially if they are high ranking (or claim to be). The Kukkiwon certifies Dan ranks, not the WTF. Also, I truly believe that for every 20 people who claim KKW 8th or 9th Dan (or claims their instructor is), probably only one actually is. They make it sound like the world is crawling with high ranking Masters, and that's just not the case.

 

[Kwan Jang]

Terry,
You are right about KKW being the one to issue rank rather than the WTF. My mention of the WTF throughout my post was correct since it was about the sport side and competition, except for the one line of about "three seperate WTF 9th dans". I should have said three KKW 9th dans, but since I had been talking so much about the sport side, I had WTF on the brain.

As far as forms/patterns are concerned, I think you are misssing my point; whether you would agree with it or not may be a different matter. I see the older forms as being sets of very functional training drills that, if used and practiced effectively, include the CQC part of TKD that most practitioners don't train in. If you include this type of training from the forms that are a part of TKD, then the art becomes more of a complete system rather than just a kick/punch system. Now, I will be the first to agree that TKD's specialty is kick/punch and it has the most versatile kicking arsenal out there, but it has a CQC side that is often ignored.

If TKD practitioners were to expand their training into this aspect of their art, then they would be much more well rounded and able to defend themselves for real. Now, many people in TKD are going outside TKD to learn how to defend themselves. Even with this type of training, you will always have guys like me who will always cross train regardless. While TKD has a decent punching arsenal, I'm going to become better with my hands by boxing, so I train in boxing (and competed as an amateur when I was in my late teens and early twenties). TKD has knee strikes, elbow strikes and low kicks, but I'll always want to evolve it to a higher level, that's why I've trained in both American kickboxing and MT for over 25 years (and was a pro kickboxer). I'm always going to want to develop my grappling beyond the basic standing grappling and takedowns, ect. that are part of the forms, so I cross train in BJJ, Submission Grappling and Judo and have been a JJJ black belt since 1983 (and I'm getting back into submission grappling competition as soon as my doctor clears me from my surgeries).

Somebody like me is always going to be cross training because I am an obsesive freak with no life (hey, I'm starting to depress myself). I've been doing this since I was a kid and it is my profession. For all the sane people out there who have lives and haven't had over 35 years to stack the different elements of their training, my approach isn't an attractive option. They can however get a well rounded self defense base from TKD if they will train it and the instructors will teach it to them.

IMO, the way many people train in forms and basics now is mostly a waste of time, though it could be so much more. I believe if what you are doing is not to train in and develop effective CQC skills by applying your forms, then you are missing the point. There are those that will argue that it's for competition or "the art" in martial arts. If that's the case, then why not do XMA? It is far more physically demanding and challenging, It is more asthetically and visually pleasing and impressive by far (for art's sake) and about as combat worthy (or not) as the applications that most are prescribing. No, I would never throw a double leg 540 or a 720 in a self defense situation, but I would never block with my opposite hand at my hip or punch from a static deep front or horse stance either. I couild cite examples where each of these can and have worked, but none are a good idea IMO.

 

[matt.m]

Yes, once again I put a post on the board and got ignored. Thought I was just being a bit helpful by even showing video evidence of differences between 2 like and similiar but different arts by notable people in their fields.

Look. rank does mean something. However, I will use Moo Sul Kwan as an example. Grandmaster Hildebrand has a 7th dan certificate from Nam Suk Lee, Lee and Lee H. Park were in Chang Moo Kwan together in Korea.
He is also a 5th dan certified under GGM Park himself in Hapkido.

David LeGrand and Jim Sautel are 6th dan Masters in Tae Kwon Do, David and Charles began training under Park together. Sautel came a little later.
Anyway there are only 2 6th dans in the organization. Jim runs the Colorado aspect of Moo SUl Kwan.

In St. Louis and Southeast Missouri there is a Master for each art: 5th dan: Bill Evans and Rick Schutt are 5th dans in TKD,(St. L school). Bill teaches at a different location. In Perryville we have 5th dan Master Pingel, In Jackson and at S.E.M.O. we have 5th dan Master Doug Johnson.
In the Cape School we have my dad 5th dan hapkido and Ralph Hendrickson 5th dan tae kwon do.

Our motto is "When it comes to rank we must be retarded." Considering GM Hildebrand who is the President of Moo Sul Kwan and Dad have said repeatedly, we only went up in rank so students could get promoted.

I have my 2nd dan in Yudo because of the same thought processing. There are a lot of brown 1st's that need testing and promoting. Not only that but there is a whole "New Crop" of students that I am teaching and so I had to go one more up. In 3 or so years I will be a 3rd dan for contribution to the art, etc."

Rank in my honest opinion is for the benefit of promotion of students not an ego booster. I have told my class repeatedly, "My belt is black not because I am better, but because I never washed my white belt."

Although at our last tournament I saw an 8 yr old 2nd dan and a 10 yr old 2nd dan. Not from our school but gee at the rate their going their gonna be those "I am a 9th degree yada yada yada by the time they are 20.

 

[Kwan Jang]

Young Man.
If you are questioning the validity of the rank of the three 9th dans that I was referring to, they are GM Ahn (former President of the USTU from 1986-1992), GM Dan Kyu Choi (who was head coach of the USA TKD team at the 3rd WTF world championships in 1977), and GM Seoung Eui Shin (who IIRC is the head of Moo Duk Kwan TKD in the USA). You are more than welcome to check their credentials. I only trained directly with GM Choi, but being a 6th dan in his lineage and the highest ranked personal student of one of his two senior students, the other GM's (who are old friends of his) have included me in their "in crowd".

As far as KKW and the WTF are concerned, I am no longer affiliated with them. My instructors parted ways with them many years ago, but didn't mind if we kept up our association with them and I did for quite some time. I won't go into details here, but if you are curious and want to PM me, I will go into why I was unhappy enough to lose respect for them as an org. and break all ties. Though I do have many friends who are still part of that and there are many great martial artists and honorable people involved, I just couldn't abide some of the corruption.

 

[matt.m]

Young Man.
If you are questioning the validity of the rank of the three 9th dans that I was referring to, they are GM Ahn (former President of the USTU from 1986-1992), GM Dan Kyu Choi (who was head coach of the USA TKD team at the 3rd WTF world championships in 1977), and GM Seoung Eui Shin (who IIRC is the head of Moo Duk Kwan TKD in the USA). You are more than welcome to check their credentials. I only trained directly with GM Choi, but being a 6th dan in his lineage and the highest ranked personal student of one of his two senior students, the other GM's (who are old friends of his) have included me in their "in crowd".

As far as KKW and the WTF are concerned, I am no longer affiliated with them. My instructors parted ways with them many years ago, but didn't mind if we kept up our association with them and I did for quite some time. I won't go into details here, but if you are curious and want to PM me, I will go into why I was unhappy enough to lose respect for them as an org. and break all ties. Though I do have many friends who are still part of that and there are many great martial artists and honorable people involved, I just couldn't abide some of the corruption.

Not to start a fight, however if you are responding to me. I do not prefer "Young Man." I served in the U.S. Marine Corps for 5 years where I did a lot of combat, saved a lot of lives and got a rating of 80 percent disabled by the V.A., not only that but my Yudo record for the U.S. Marine Team was 33 gold and 2 silver.

I don't question anyone perse. To me you are what you are until proven different. Plus, for that matter my whole point was that a lot of people chase belts and are rank greedy. I really don't care about what others do, I am just merely stating fact from my organizational stanpoint.

 

[matt.m]

My apologies, I spoke a bit too soon. Always easy to insert foot into mouth than it is to take it out.

Again, sorry I was defensive. I just had a feeling that your post was directed to me.

 

[foot2face]

I honestly don't want to step on your toes here, but I do feel that the bunkai used by the Okinawan systems WHEN they include the kyusho and tuite applications are far more combat worthy though.

I’m not seeking to have a debate over the superiority of Okinawan bunkai vs. Korean applications to the forms. It’s incredibly subjective and up to the personal preferences of the person relying on them. While one who prefers the Okinawan bunkai will claim, and I’ll agree, that they are extremely effective and are far more sophisticated. They often go on to say that the Korean applications are simple and represent an inferior understanding. However, one who relies on the Korean applications will state that by comparison they might seem simple, simple is not synonymous with ineffective. In fact, may SD experts claim that simplicity is a vital component to an effective SD routine. They will continue, saying that the Korean applications are much more inline with the philosophies of TKD and complement the other aspects of the art rather than introducing competing tactics and methods. It’s also incorrect to assume that there is no pressure point/nerve strikes and grappling within the Korean applications. There are a several pp/nerve strikes in Korean based TKD applications. Again, not nearly as many as in Okinawan bunkai and no where near as complex as with Okinawan kenpo, getting into Chinese medicine with various points along meridians and the so on, but they are there. The approach taken by the Korean applications is different by that taken by those who emphasize the Kyushu aspect of kata. For instance, a disciple of Oyota might say something like “pp don’t need to be struck hard in order to work. What is required is precision, contacting them in the exact location and at the correct angle, but I’m going to hit hard anyway in the chance that I miss or for what ever reason the point is obscured or ineffective at least I land a solid blow.” The TKD outlook is on the other end of the spectrum. TKD evolved as a power striking system. One reason why kicks are emphasized, kicks being among the most powerful strikes one can throw. There is an emphasis on doing structural damage and relying on the immediate physical reaction to the blow rather than a physiological one. This culminates with the belief that concussive shock to the brain via a powerful strike to the head region is the most reliable method for incapacitating an attacker. This is one of reasons why there are high kicks in TKD, there is the belief that kick deliver force far above the threshold needed to knock someone unconscious. When grabbed on the wrist a TKDist will typically hit their attacker hard in the wrist region, generally along the thumb joint location. The objective is to break the hold and knock the hand away, momentarily taking it out of the fight and exposing more vulnerable targets. It has the added benefit of possibly causing structural damage, fracturing the wrist or dislocating the thumb. Typically, they are not looking to inflict pain or set up a sophisticated pp knock out by precisely targeting a specific point on the wrist or arm. This type of thinking is one of the reasons why there are no leg kicks in TKD competitions. Besides the obvious reason of wanting to emphasize the systems aggressive high kicks, particularly to the head, TKD low kicks tend to be aimed directly towards the knees. Unlike other systems that include strikes to nerves on the leg in an attempt to cause pain or “deaden” the limb TKDist focus on the knee hoping to immediately affect the stability and balance of our adversary and possibly destroy the joint. Since there are no safe ways to hit the knees, low kick were taken out of competitions. By now it may seem that I’m contradicting my early statement but pp/nerve strikes are in the Korean application. For example, in my attempted application for Eunbi I briefly mention another application I wrote about where one delivers an upward rising knife hand to the side of the neck just under the jaw. The strike is directed towards the carotid sinus, a classic nerve strike. However, the main objective is to drive the attacker back allowing for more powerful follow up shots. If I’m lucky enough to hit the “sweet spot” and the attacker drops then great, I not going to complain that “I wish the fight went a little longer so I could get a few more shots in.” The outlook is different, the application focuses on event that all the strike does is drive the attacker back which is fine because it allows you to attack with more powerful strikes from a position you’re more comfortable with. The possible pp knockout is just the icing on the cake. This is the way that the kyusho are generally presented in the Tae Geuk applications. With regards to grappling, there are locks, traps and takedowns in the applications but again the approach is a bit different. The goal is not to actually dominate the fight with these techniques but rather use them to facilitate the typical TKD striking.
I was hoping with this discussion, that we could highlight the various methods for applying the forms rather than argue over which are best.

Let me make a suggestion, if I may. Try pressure testing the applications that you posted against a fully resisting, non-compliant opponent who is both larger and stronger than you. If you can break it down into segements and make it work under these conditions with such a training partner, then you will know that it is at least viable under the conditions that you describe and are not just accepting blindly what has been passed down to you. Even if it turns out to be viable, if you don't actively apply it and practice it under these conditions, it will be of no real use to you.

I briefly described my training in my earlier post but it seems that I was not clear enough. Please allow me to elaborate. I was taught and trained in the use of these applications. They were certainly pressure tested. Many of the BBs at my school were not originally my master’s students. They came, as BBs, from other schools complaining that the dojangs where they used to train had gone “soft”. They were drawn to my instructor because of his advance rank and reputation for hard SD oriented training. Most of them were former Military, like my instructor, and nearly all of them were current LEOs. For these men, TKD wasn’t mealy a hobby or a means to keep in shape but a combat system which they depended on to keep them alive when the only weapons available where their hands and feet. The training at the dojangs reflected this. As a consequence of our hard training I have been knocked unconscious, choked out and had my shoulder dislocated. Others in my school received similar injuries as well as gruesome bruises and broken bones. Blood was not an unfamiliar sight and I had to get a new dobahk due to staining on more then one occasion. Like you, my instructor held dans in Hapkido and Judo, other BBs had experience in deferent systems such as Boxing and Wrestling as well. My master often told us that “if your TKD only works against other TKDist than it’s useless.” He would often incorporate theses different arts into our training. His goal was not to expand our MA knowledge by making us proficient in other systems but rather to enhance our TKD, allowing us to develop an understanding of how to apply our TKD skill set against other methods and styles.

 

[YoungMan]

I was not singling anyone out as far as the rank issue. However, you can't deny that claims of 7th-9th Dan rank seem to be much more common than the numbers that actually exist. By definition, there will not be many 7th-9th Dans in the world, nor should there be.
And I agree with Foot2Face: Korean forms application and self defense is MUCH more effective than people give it credit for. Particularly when it's Kwan based, the techniques were never designed to merely cause pain, they were designed to destroy. One of the reasons why traditional TKD does not make a good tournament sport and why TKD had to make many changes to be admitted to the Olympics. Sport TKD can undoubtably cause pain, but traditional TKD is designed to be lethal.
Don't forget, Taekwondo was born during a time of great turmoil in Korea (Korean War, North Korea and China to the north, infighting between Kwans). A martial art that serves only to incapacitate or cause pain would hardly be effective in those cases.
That's one of the reasons why our instructor was so adamant about being careful with Taekwondo-he knew full well what it could do.

 

[Errant108]

I’m not seeking to have a debate over the superiority of Okinawan bunkai vs. Korean applications to the forms. It’s incredibly subjective and up to the personal preferences of the person relying on them. While one who prefers the Okinawan bunkai will claim, and I’ll agree, that they are extremely effective and are far more sophisticated. They often go on to say that the Korean applications are simple and represent an inferior understanding. However, one who relies on the Korean applications will state that by comparison they might seem simple, simple is not synonymous with ineffective. In fact, may SD experts claim that simplicity is a vital component to an effective SD routine. They will continue, saying that the Korean applications are much more inline with the philosophies of TKD and complement the other aspects of the art rather than introducing competing tactics and methods. It’s also incorrect to assume that there is no pressure point/nerve strikes and grappling within the Korean applications. There are a several pp/nerve strikes in Korean based TKD applications. Again, not nearly as many as in Okinawan bunkai and no where near as complex as with Okinawan kenpo, getting into Chinese medicine with various points along meridians and the so on, but they are there. The approach taken by the Korean applications is different by that taken by those who emphasize the Kyushu aspect of kata. For instance, a disciple of Oyota might say something like “pp don’t need to be struck hard in order to work. What is required is precision, contacting them in the exact location and at the correct angle, but I’m going to hit hard anyway in the chance that I miss or for what ever reason the point is obscured or ineffective at least I land a solid blow.” The TKD outlook is on the other end of the spectrum. TKD evolved as a power striking system. One reason why kicks are emphasized, kicks being among the most powerful strikes one can throw. There is an emphasis on doing structural damage and relying on the immediate physical reaction to the blow rather than a physiological one. This culminates with the belief that concussive shock to the brain via a powerful strike to the head region is the most reliable method for incapacitating an attacker. This is one of reasons why there are high kicks in TKD, there is the belief that kick deliver force far above the threshold needed to knock someone unconscious. When grabbed on the wrist a TKDist will typically hit their attacker hard in the wrist region, generally along the thumb joint location. The objective is to break the hold and knock the hand away, momentarily taking it out of the fight and exposing more vulnerable targets. It has the added benefit of possibly causing structural damage, fracturing the wrist or dislocating the thumb. Typically, they are not looking to inflict pain or set up a sophisticated pp knock out by precisely targeting a specific point on the wrist or arm. This type of thinking is one of the reasons why there are no leg kicks in TKD competitions. Besides the obvious reason of wanting to emphasize the systems aggressive high kicks, particularly to the head, TKD low kicks tend to be aimed directly towards the knees. Unlike other systems that include strikes to nerves on the leg in an attempt to cause pain or “deaden” the limb TKDist focus on the knee hoping to immediately affect the stability and balance of our adversary and possibly destroy the joint. Since there are no safe ways to hit the knees, low kick were taken out of competitions. By now it may seem that I’m contradicting my early statement but pp/nerve strikes are in the Korean application. For example, in my attempted application for Eunbi I briefly mention another application I wrote about where one delivers an upward rising knife hand to the side of the neck just under the jaw. The strike is directed towards the carotid sinus, a classic nerve strike. However, the main objective is to drive the attacker back allowing for more powerful follow up shots. If I’m lucky enough to hit the “sweet spot” and the attacker drops then great, I not going to complain that “I wish the fight went a little longer so I could get a few more shots in.” The outlook is different, the application focuses on event that all the strike does is drive the attacker back which is fine because it allows you to attack with more powerful strikes from a position you’re more comfortable with. The possible pp knockout is just the icing on the cake. This is the way that the kyusho are generally presented in the Tae Geuk applications. With regards to grappling, there are locks, traps and takedowns in the applications but again the approach is a bit different. The goal is not to actually dominate the fight with these techniques but rather use them to facilitate the typical TKD striking.
I was hoping with this discussion, that we could highlight the various methods for applying the forms rather than argue over which are best.

I briefly described my training in my earlier post but it seems that I was not clear enough. Please allow me to elaborate. I was taught and trained in the use of these applications. They were certainly pressure tested. Many of the BBs at my school were not originally my master’s students. They came, as BBs, from other schools complaining that the dojangs where they used to train had gone “soft”. They were drawn to my instructor because of his advance rank and reputation for hard SD oriented training. Most of them were former Military, like my instructor, and nearly all of them were current LEOs. For these men, TKD wasn’t mealy a hobby or a means to keep in shape but a combat system which they depended on to keep them alive when the only weapons available where their hands and feet. The training at the dojangs reflected this. As a consequence of our hard training I have been knocked unconscious, choked out and had my shoulder dislocated. Others in my school received similar injuries as well as gruesome bruises and broken bones. Blood was not an unfamiliar sight and I had to get a new dobahk due to staining on more then one occasion. Like you, my instructor held dans in Hapkido and Judo, other BBs had experience in deferent systems such as Boxing and Wrestling as well. My master often told us that “if your TKD only works against other TKDist than it’s useless.” He would often incorporate theses different arts into our training. His goal was not to expand our MA knowledge by making us proficient in other systems but rather to enhance our TKD, allowing us to develop an understanding of how to apply our TKD skill set against other methods and styles.

It sounds like your take on form applications is based on your teacher rather than any "official" Kukkiwon SD training, and thus not the official "Korean" take. I've trained with people who trained directly under Gwan founders, and not heard any such thing. Where do these applications come from?

 

[foot2face]

It sounds like your take on form applications is based on your teacher rather than any "official" Kukkiwon SD training, and thus not the official "Korean" take.

No, it wasn’t just my masters way. Several of the BBs at my school came from other dojangs after receiving Dans and were trained similarly by their previous instructors. I’ve also met TKDist from other schools who had elements of this in their training as well. TKD evolved a lot since the mid 50s and there are numerous variants representing the art at different points of it's evolutions. The KKW of today is not the KKW of yesterday.
I was not completely accurate by constantly referring to them as "the Korean applications." You are absolutely correct, it is not the official Korean take, there is no official Korean take. Different KMAs and even different schools within the same KMA have their own take. However, for simplicity sake, I was trying to clearly differentiate strict O/J interpretation form one of the alternate methods developed in Korea. I did not mean to suggest that this is the only way it is done in Korea.

I've trained with people who trained directly under Gwan founders, and not heard any such thing. Where do these applications come from?

This is probably why it doesn't sound familiar to you. It could be that you train a variant of TKD that reflects the preferences of the older generation of masters and closer resembles the arts of the Kwan era. My training represents TKD at a latter point in it's evolution.

 

[Errant108]

No, it wasn’t just my masters way. Several of the BBs at my school came from other dojangs after receiving Dans and were trained similarly by their previous instructors.

Where do you surmise this stream of instruction originates from? Who is your instructor and who were his instructors? I'm interested in learning more.

The KKW of today is not the KKW of yesterday.

Without a doubt...

I was not completely accurate by constantly referring to them as "the Korean applications." You are absolutely correct, it is not the official Korean take...I did not mean to suggest that this is the only way it is done in Korea.

Unfortunately, that was the way it was perceived and why there was such a negative reaction to your previous posts. If this stream is not an official one, it is no more valid than anyone else's, and even those who research older applications are not retrograding TKD, but looking at what is already within it, in essence, adhering to a complete view of the Korean methodology found in their art. Criticizing them as being unKorean is not valid, unles it is the Korean method to throw the baby out with the bath water instead out of ignorance.

I do understand where you are coming from. My own primary instructor, who trained in the Mudukgwan during the transition period between Dangsudo & Taegwondo, taught applications that could be seen as similar to Okinawan bunkai, but retained a distinctly "Korean" feel to them.

there is no official Korean take.

Unfortunately, there is an official set of Korean applications for Gukgi Taegwondo pumsae. They can be found in part in the majority of the Gukgiwon & WTF sponsored gyobun, manuals, and bibles. They are the elementary school explanations, a high block versus a hammerfist, a crescent kick to block a punch that was too far away to strike you anyway.

It is because of these "official" explanations that the majority of Gukgiwon instructors do not teach applications, why forms are viewed as something you do for a belt test or competition, rather than an integral part of training. It's this reason why you find people like Exile looking back at connections between Okinawan kata, created with a fighting methodology in mind, to draw out possible modern "explanations" to Taegeuk pumsae and the like.

This is probably why it doesn't sound familiar to you. It could be that you train a variant of TKD that reflects the preferences of the older generation of masters and closer resembles the arts of the Kwan era. My training represents TKD at a latter point in it's evolution.

I've trained several variants of TKD, and interviewed practitioners of many different systems. I've learned what it was like being on the floor with Hwang Gi, Hong Chongsu, Cho Hi-il, Song Deokseon, Pak Cheolhi...to the rigors of training for national & international competition. I've listened to members of the younger generation regale me with tails of their glorious art descended from the Hwarang and developed out of Taegyeon, and had the older generation tell me about political pressures forcing them to go along with mythologies, or how certain higher ups were talking out their *** when they claimed to have studied with underground Taegyeon masters. I've had people who were there during the transition era tell me exactly what pieces of what kata where rearranged into what pumsae.

So you'll forgive me for being skeptical. I am interested in hearing what you have to say though.

 

[matt.m]

Ok, here is my take period end of story. We have a few "New Guys" at the school. They are both Red belts from their TKD system and 1 new guy from Traditional Shotokan Karate. All 3 are white belts in MSK:TKD. Is it out of lack of talent? Nope, it is because every school teaches different one and three step sparring. Every school does different "Basic Moves" as well as different standards of which poomsea is taught per level. For instance Between orange and green I had to do the ITF poomsea Do-San and the WTF poomsea Sam Jang. For Purple belt test coming up I will have to do O-Jang and Yul-Guk.

So the debate should not be "Is the Application of TKD poomsea in SD applicable?" It should be "Am I doing enough reps with proper tempo and tension and poise?" All pieces of any poomsea are applicable for the following reason....."Every block is a breaking strike and every strike reinforces the block."

Anyone who want's to look at the Creditals of Moo Sul Kwan please consider the following........"GGM Park the founder began training in Chang Moo Kwan and ended with Chung Do Kwan for TKD. He and Nam Suk Lee were great friends. Nam Suk Lee would come from Korea to Cape Girardeau, MO to go fishing with GGM Park." "GGM Park trained at the Korean National Yudo Academy and learned hapkido from Won, Kwang Wha himself."

So, it is what it is and you train as you would fight and poomsea becomes applicable. If you just go through the motions then no there will be no application because there is absolutely 0 intensity.

There are only 2 reasons I train in Tae Kwon Do.....
1. Physical therapy
2. Learning and trying to get better at poomsea every time I perform it

 

[DArnold]

Can I ask a syupid wuestion to all you high and mighty top rank Instructors and I am being as serious as I can here. Why does every single person say they are WTF 9th and WTF 8th and WTF certified? I mean come on the WTF does not certifesd anyine except for one brief year, all of the certification comes from the KKW in Soul Korea. This has been a pet peave of mine for twenty five years and it just tears me apart when people does not use the correct terminology when talking about certification.

If I am wrong can one of you find folks please pasye and copy a WTF certificate that is different from the KKW so I can personally see one. It can be PM'ed to me if you like.

Now back to the decussion of Poomsae and applications, we the current old timers with more than twenty years in this so called Art of our have seen the up and down roller coster that is called poomsae make changes after changes and never really seeing proper teaching to all the refs. let alone all the instructors out here. Untik we come together as one and are all thought the exact same way, people are just going to interpate what they believe and there instructors believe, does it make it wrong no just different.

I enjoy TKD as a way of life and a wat to protect whether or bot a certain instructor see eye to eye with me does not change my training or teaching, the count and movements havenot been altor only the common sequene of the way they are presented for competition. I beleive we are all comparing apples jsut a different take with them some like it right off the vine with very little eveer being change and some like the sliced up version while other like apple sauce. It is still all apples in the long run.

Have a wonderful and great day.

Terry, Let them go on.
This is the kind of argument is fun, as I would expect from red belts.
The need to validate themselves over someone else.

My styles better than yours NAH, NAH, NAH.

Those who think books prove their validity in the MA's are quite amuseing.
And god, you have to be validated by Japan or it just isn't an art.
And some of you seniors did get sucked in by book smart Masters...

didn't ya:lol:

Anyone who does not see the validity of another style is just insecure in themselves (or trying to sell you something).

 

[exile]

This is the kind of argument is fun, as I would expect from red belts.

I've long ago lost track of what the discussion about, and I'm finding it hard to respond to posts which contain strings of words, such as the one I've cited, that aren't even well-formed sentences of English.

I'll just say this, and if the shoe fits, wear it: people who try to lord it over other people on this board, with condescending and self-serving observations about other people's rank in the MAs, wind up digging holes for themselves that they have a hard time getting out of. They get nailed for rep, and they wind up running against the rules of the board, which are built (in part) around the premise that you address the substance of the point at hand, with facts and logic, rather than trying to making overbearing, sniping comments about other people based on your self-described 'exalted' rank. Savvy?

And now, please, maybe we can get back to the point of the OP, which was about self-defense applications inherent (or not) in hyungs, rather than anything to do with Japan, or with one style being better than another, or any other irrelevant and off-topic distractions? Errant and foot2face have been taking the discussion in a very interesting and useful direction, one that seems far more productive than self-congratulatory posts that implicitly glorify the poster's vision of his own elevated status. Can we please follow them in developing the OP theme?

 

[Errant108]

So the debate should not be "Is the Application of TKD poomsea in SD applicable?" It should be "Am I doing enough reps with proper tempo and tension and poise?"

If that's what you want to debate, creating a thread to debate that would be suggested. That is not what we're debating here, and I disagree with your conclusion and your line of reasoning. Further discussion of this will result in thread drift. We can do that if you want, or would you rather start a proper thread for that?

All pieces of any poomsea are applicable for the following reason....."Every block is a breaking strike and every strike reinforces the block."

There are no blocks in hyung. That's elementary school TKD.

Anyone who want's to look at the Creditals of Moo Sul Kwan please consider the following........"GGM Park the founder began training in Chang Moo Kwan and ended with Chung Do Kwan for TKD. He and Nam Suk Lee were great friends. Nam Suk Lee would come from Korea to Cape Girardeau, MO to go fishing with GGM Park." "GGM Park trained at the Korean National Yudo Academy and learned hapkido from Won, Kwang Wha himself."

What do his credentials have to do with anything? I wasn't aware we were discussing him. Regardless, it's the fallacy of appeal to authority.

So, it is what it is and you train as you would fight and poomsea becomes applicable.

Pumsae does not become applicable. It either is applicable or it is not. If you are never taught how to apply the motions, merely dancing them, no matter with what level of intensity, is not going to make them applicable. You fight how you train, and if you fight in walking stance low blocking my round kick...well...my sympathies to your forearm. That is the essence of this discussion, accuracy of application. If all you are taught is the elementary school application, the "official" curriculum, applicability flies out the window.

If you just go through the motions then no there will be no application because there is absolutely 0 intensity.

There are only 2 reasons I train in Tae Kwon Do.....
1. Physical therapy
2. Learning and trying to get better at poomsea every time I perform it

Those are great reasons to train, and I hope you're able to succeed in your goals. The one thing to remember is that your goals are not necessarily the goals of all practitioners.

 

[matt.m]

If that's what you want to debate, creating a thread to debate that would be suggested. That is not what we're debating here, and I disagree with your conclusion and your line of reasoning. Further discussion of this will result in thread drift. We can do that if you want, or would you rather start a proper thread for that?



There are no blocks in hyung. That's elementary school TKD.



What do his credentials have to do with anything? I wasn't aware we were discussing him. Regardless, it's the fallacy of appeal to authority.



Pumsae does not become applicable. It either is applicable or it is not. If you are never taught how to apply the motions, merely dancing them, no matter with what level of intensity, is not going to make them applicable. You fight how you train, and if you fight in walking stance low blocking my round kick...well...my sympathies to your forearm. That is the essence of this discussion, accuracy of application. If all you are taught is the elementary school application, the "official" curriculum, applicability flies out the window.

If you just go through the motions then no there will be no application because there is absolutely 0 intensity.



Those are great reasons to train, and I hope you're able to succeed in your goals. The one thing to remember is that your goals are not necessarily the goals of all practitioners.

I can take constructive criticism, however I have been around the Martial Arts since 1978. I am a world champion Judoka from the All Marine Judo Team where I won 33 gold and 2 silver medals on the international level. I also competed Greko Roman for them as an alternate and have 18 Gold and 2 silver. Along with that "little" accomplishment, well I have survived combat on 4 continenets and 1 Island during my tour of duty in the USMC, where I was discharged as a Sergeant with an 80% disability rating. I have saved mine, my troops and many innocent lives.
They are little places like Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Liberia, Tunisia, Israel, Turkey, Albania.....just to name a few place I have been where the U.S. Marines were only wanted by the poor helpless people that needed help. The rest wanted us dead.
So frankly, I know what works.....why it works, as well as the commitment to training you have to have. BTW: Not to start a fight but what is your MA background and rank?
I also teach a very successful class of 20+ students 2x a week in Yudo, where I hold a 2nd dan. I know that isn't a big deal, but I only care about how well my students do. We went to other Judo schools in the St. L area and my white belts were beating green and brown belts. So there again, it is all about conviction and heart.

At our National Convention I taught sword, self defense and Yudo. So that was a day and a half rotation of intense cirriculum. Oh sorry, you are new to the board you didn't know that I walk with a cane and 2 custom fit titanium leg braces that hold my patella in track, I also have P.T.S.D. and a Traumatic Brain Injury from surviving a helicopter crash from 1500 ft up.

So, please do not talk about "Conviction" with me. Remember lineage has everything to do with credentials......however it is your own personal conviction and dedication that makes you what you are. And if you do not train like you would fight then you are waisting your time. Oh if you wanna ask for validation, if by chance you might feel as though I am a liar, then please dont hesitate to confirm what about me To the following: TheLetch1, Drac, IcemanSK, Kacey, Carol, or Brian VanCise. Be my guest.

But thank you for your insight as to my supposed stupidity.

 

[JWLuiza]

I can take constructive criticism, however I have been around the Martial Arts since 1978. I am a world champion Judoka from the All Marine Judo Team where I won 33 gold and 2 silver medals on the international level. I also competed Greko Roman for them as an alternate and have 18 Gold and 2 silver. Along with that "little" accomplishment, well I have survived combat on 4 continenets and 1 Island during my tour of duty in the USMC, where I was discharged as a Sergeant with an 80% disability rating. I have saved mine, my troops and many innocent lives.
They are little places like Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Liberia, Tunisia, Israel, Turkey, Albania.....just to name a few place I have been where the U.S. Marines were only wanted by the poor helpless people that needed help. The rest wanted us dead.
So frankly, I know what works.....why it works, as well as the commitment to training you have to have. BTW: Not to start a fight but what is your MA background and rank?
I also teach a very successful class of 20+ students 2x a week in Yudo, where I hold a 2nd dan. I know that isn't a big deal, but I only care about how well my students do. We went to other Judo schools in the St. L area and my white belts were beating green and brown belts. So there again, it is all about conviction and heart.

At our National Convention I taught sword, self defense and Yudo. So that was a day and a half rotation of intense cirriculum. Oh sorry, you are new to the board you didn't know that I walk with a cane and 2 custom fit titanium leg braces that hold my patella in track, I also have P.T.S.D. and a Traumatic Brain Injury from surviving a helicopter crash from 1500 ft up.

So, please do not talk about "Conviction" with me. Remember lineage has everything to do with credentials......however it is your own personal conviction and dedication that makes you what you are. And if you do not train like you would fight then you are waisting your time. Oh if you wanna ask for validation, if by chance you might feel as though I am a liar, then please dont hesitate to confirm what about me To the following: TheLetch1, Drac, IcemanSK, Kacey, Carol, or Brian VanCise. Be my guest.

But thank you for your insight as to my supposed stupidity.

Errant108 has been around other boards for quite awhile, and I am sure can defend himself. But I'd like to put this out right away:

His words were not a personal attack on you or your students. They were an academic response to your stated responses in this argument. Hey, you sound like a great guy to me, in fact, I'd buy you several rounds of beer (if you drink) at a watering hole if we ever met, you've served the nation in a capacity that I haven't, so kudos.

But, Errant's response and talk of conviction, wasn't an exhortation against your training, but his opinion, and one that I share, that if you train kata/hyung/poomsae as performance art, any practitioner is missing the link between form and function... If I can put words in Errant's mouth.

I doubt he thinks you are stupid, and if you were to re-read his posts from an academic mindset, your responses could be more illuminating as to your contention of how you view forms as an effective practice.

 

[Errant108]

But thank you for your insight as to my supposed stupidity.

I don't recall ever calling you stupid, nor questioned your experience.

If your post is your standard response to anyone posing a minor disagreement with you in an otherwise civil discourse, then I have no desire continuing the conversation with you. If not, then we can continue.

In response to your question as to my MA background & experience, my Dharma name is MuSsang, which means the Unequaled. I am a Fist of the Blue Mountain Sangha. I am a lay disciple of Pohwa-seunim, who's teacher was Myobong-seunim, who's teacher was Hyeam-seunim. Under my teacher, I am an instructor of Cheolryun Gwonbeop, Iron Wheel Boxing, at Gakhwangsa, the Temple of the Enlightened King. That's three generations of my lineage, going back to before the Japanese Occupation, more than enough for you to verify should you desire. If not, JWLuiza, MBuzzy, & Upnorthkyosa will be able to verify I am who I say I am.

EDIT: Thank you, JW.

 

[matt.m]

I don't recall ever calling you stupid, nor questioned your experience.

If your post is your standard response to anyone posing a minor disagreement with you in an otherwise civil discourse, then I have no desire continuing the conversation with you. If not, then we can continue.

In response to your question as to my MA background & experience, my Dharma name is MuSsang, which means the Unequaled. I am a Fist of the Blue Mountain Sangha. I am a lay disciple of Pohwa-seunim, who's teacher was Myobong-seunim, who's teacher was Hyeam-seunim. Under my teacher, I am an instructor of Cheolryun Gwonbeop, Iron Wheel Boxing, at Gakhwangsa, the Temple of the Enlightened King. That's three generations of my lineage, going back to before the Japanese Occupation, more than enough for you to verify should you desire. If not, JWLuiza, MBuzzy, & Upnorthkyosa will be able to verify I am who I say I am.

EDIT: Thank you, JW.

No man it is all good, I mis interpeted what some of your response was. I just see so much black belt factory kind of training that I have too much conviction and that helps me to keep my foot in my mouth in a manner of speaking. I did go back and re read, I owe you a humble apology and hope you accept it. I just see so many people "Go through the motions without any snap,pop, or intensity during poomsea, kata, hyung......whatever and it is just depressing.

I suppose I am overly opinionated about my convictions concerning combat and "The way you train is the way you fight is a 2 part answer.
1. My father, a 6th dan in hapkido raised me as a single parent as a farmer/brick layer in the 70's and we're pure Scottish. Seasonal work in small town Missouri makes you appreciate everything and settle for nothing but "Trying to better self, for it is how others perceive you, not what you say."
2 I have seen way too much ugly in the world from my time in the U.S.M.C. that as a "Defense Mechanism" of sorts I generally have my Spidey sense going off at all times. It is very hard to deal with. So that just re inforces my belief system in "You train as though you would fight or don't train at all."

So again, please accept my humble apology.