Application of TKD poomsae in SD

[Brad Dunne]

I don't recall insulting you or making a personal attack. If you cannot discuss this maturely, politely, and professionally, I will have no further discussion with you.

If your insulted, for posting what I deem a stupid response on something, that just about anyone who studies the arts knows the rational and purpose of why forms were introduced in the first place, then tough! Don't make such off the wall statements and perhaps you will then find the attributes you seek. Go back and re-read your response to my post, if someone was attacked, it was me. You felt the need to attempt to discredit everything that was said and in less than friendly terms. Just because you used terms such as "swimming on dry land", "don't theorize", and then proceeded to delve into aspects that were not even mentioned, just because you felt the need to talk down and show how possibly insightful others may think you are with a lot of un-necessary retoric, still dosen't negate the fact that you served the first salvo. No further discussion is fine with me, for I don't feel the need to discuss anything with someone who either dosen't know what their talking about or someone who just likes to see themselves talk and hopes that others think their impressive, regardless of the validity of their statements.

 

[Errant108]

I don’t feel comfortable with giving my instructors name. I haven’t seen him in over a decade. He his a very old-fashioned and private man. I’m certain that he would not appreciate me divulging what he would probably consider personal information in such a public forum. Besides, I won’t share my own name, I don’t think it would be fair to share his. I do intend to return to my home town with in a year or so. One of the first palaces I visit will be my old school and with his permission I will proudly introduce him to the MT community.

Understood. I look forward to that.

This brings up another interesting topic for discussion. It was my understanding that MDK founder Hwang Kee never had any formal O/JMA training and that the kata he practice was learned from Shotokan books. Were these seemingly Okinawan inspired bunkai brought in from other practitioners who had experience in different MAs…or were they developed by MDK practitioners own interpretations of the movements within the forms?

Allow me to clarify. My teacher certainly did not learn many of the explanations he had for the pumsae from the Mudukgwan. Those coming up in the Mudukgwan Dangsudo and today's Subakdo learn the same elementary school applications that Exile has been criticizing. My teacher was a big advocate of crosstraining, and trained in Korean Sibpalgi, Shaolin Long Fist, Shorin-ryu, Judo...etc. His explanations were his own. Many of them resemble Okinawan bunkai. Many didn't.

From what I gather the applications that have been published to date are simply entry level applications that are meant to introduce someone to using the poomse.

That's pretty much the case, however, given that nothing else has been released officially does not lend much credence to the idea that another official application training system exists other than the elementary school explanations. The fact that the great majority of instructors I've met have no other explanation also casts doubt.

It would be extremely laborious to compile a comprehensive collection of all the applications with the explanatory philosophies and principles that make them effective.

Elimate the ones least effective, select the ones easiest to train.

The “elementary school explanations” are just that, very simple foundational teachings that are meant to be built upon. For example, “a crescent kick to block a punch that was too far away to strike you anyway” establishes the premise behind more advance applications. The idea is to intercept thrusting linear attacks. A more advance application would be intercepting a thrusting attack from someone with a knife or bayonet who is making use of the reach advantage their weapon provides and is just beyond the range of your strikes. There are several reason as to why this application is thought to be effective. It put to use your greatest range weapon against theirs, allowing to intercept the attack as far from your core as possible. An advantage when dealing against an edge weapon where a minor secondary attack or even unintentional contact can cause great harm. It puts forth a shoed foot as opposed to a bare hand, offering an other level of protection. It also makes use of the layered attack/defense rational of emphasized kicking. If the attack gets past my kick I can still defend with my hands, allowing for two chances to respond to a single attack. Kicks are generally more powerful than hand strikes and offer the best chance to completely derail the attack knocking it away far off line, instead of just deflecting it, from your body allowing ample opportunity to close the distance and step in with a powerful attack such as an elbow smash to the head.

The problem there is that you waste time by the teaching the kick to the punch defense. The whole idea of using it as a preparatory to the kicking against the knife is a waste of time. Just train the kick to the knife. There's no need for the "foundational teaching" you mentioned. The idea of interception, outside movement, circular versus linear, can be taught through gyorugi.

No…the majority of KKW instructors don’t teach applications because they are just not a highly emphasized aspect of the art. Boon Hae aren’t the fundamental core of TKD as with some other MAs. Other aspects take precedence. The applications aren’t usually taught until well after one receives a BB. At the color belt level the forms are more like active meditation. Stressing crisp technique and fluid movement with focus but not necessarily conscious thought. This helps build that mind body link that allows for instinctive reactions.

That mind-body link is much better developed through reaction drills, through the gyorugi training that KKW TKD is so known for.

You can't train a form for instinctive reaction. In order to train reaction, you must have a stimulus to react upon. This is one of the modern sports science methodology that has made the KKW so famous.

Most instructor leave it at that. Many of the principles, philosophies and techniques that are contained within the forms are taught separate from them and are never liked to the poomse. It also has a lot to do with the personal preferences of your instructor. Very few, if any, teach the whole complete system. They shape their instruction based on their preferences, of which form application is seldom a priority.

You strike upon the core of the matter here, which is what many have criticized KKW TKD for. It is not a holistic system. Pumsae have nothing to do with gyorugi. Gyorugi has nothing to do with hoshinsul. Hoshinsul has nothing to do with gyeokpa.

As I've mentioned, it doesn't have to be this way. Looking at the pumsae applications and combining them with pumsae methodology pretty much does away with a need for a separate hoshinul curriculum as the entire art becomes hoshinsul. Train gyeokpa as a methodology for power and tool development rather than acrobatics, and you now have a holistic approach to TKD.

You must consider, especially when discussing KKW TKD, that many of the masters from the older generation haven’t fully embraced the all the “newer” methods and still teach some things the “old way”. This is most evident in how they view the forms. Younger masters from more recent times tend to focus on the sport and have little interest in or understanding of form application.

More than anything else, it's this political and technical disjointedness that has hindered Gukgi Taegwondo from developing.

There is a distinct possibility that if you and I got together and trained, you would recognize what I do. It wouldn’t seem so unfamiliar to you. Often, so much gets lost in translation over the internet. It’s very difficult to condense knowledge gained over years of studying into a short paragraph. It’s likely that I’m describing things you already know but from an angle your are not used to hearing them from.

There's only one way to find out...

 

[Errant108]

If your insulted, for posting what I deem a stupid response on something

Explain why it was stupid, so we can have a discussion, instead of just saying it's stupid. That's a personal attack, a fallacy.

that just about anyone who studies the arts knows the rational and purpose of why forms were introduced in the first place, then tough!

Actually, the great majority of people do not understand the purpose for why the forms were originally created, and that is why this discussion is taking place. If you don't wish to discuss it with myself, Exile, F2F, and others, that's fine, but I would appreciate it if you would refrain from calling me stupid.

...if someone was attacked, it was me. You felt the need to attempt to discredit everything that was said and in less than friendly terms.

Disagreeing with you is not discreditting you. I never attacked your credentials, because, again, that would be a fallacy known as ad hominum.

If you disagree with my analysis and criticism of your explanations, please feel free to counterpoint. That is how discussions take place.

Just because you used terms such as "swimming on dry land", "don't theorize", and then proceeded to delve into aspects that were not even mentioned,

I say those things because that is my position in this discussion and has been in the beginning. I do not advocate theory, but rather experimentation and experience. I advocate pressure testing over just doing forms and one steps. I use the analogy of "swimming on dry land" to explain my point. Self-defence techniques must be applicable in the freeflowing environment of combat. Thus, it makes sense to practice them in that environment as close as possible. Merely going through the motions is related to practicing swimming strokes without ever getting in the water. It may be of some minor benefit, but you're not actually learning to swim. I did not come up with this analogy. Bruce Lee did.

If that is not your point of view, please bring supporting arguments so that we may have a discussion.

just because you felt the need to talk down and show how possibly insightful others may think you are with a lot of un-necessary retoric, still dosen't negate the fact that you served the first salvo.

I don't recall ever calling you or your position stupid. Please point out where I made a personal attack against you.

No further discussion is fine with me, for I don't feel the need to discuss anything with someone who either dosen't know what their talking about or someone who just likes to see themselves talk and hopes that others think their impressive, regardless of the validity of their statements.

If you feel my statements are invalid, I would love to see your counterarguments. If you feel I don't know what I'm talking about, please correct me. Others on this board seem to believe I at least know enough to have a discussion with.

 

[exile]

Understood. I look forward to that.

There's only one way to find out...

... and that's face to face!

I'm getting an idea here... we three are in the general central NE/Mid-Atlantic/eastern Midwest area, right? The Perimeter of Pennsylvania, as I think of it... and MBuzzy is just a bit north of me in A-hiya, and I know Kwan Jang is in Tennesee, just one state south of us... with enough lead time, it wouldn't be too hard for a bunch of us with these shared interests to get together to do some training, boon hae comparisons, technique analysis, the kind of thing we're struggling to do via what is really a pretty difficult medium for that purpose. The KMAists on the board are strung out from sea to shining sea, but those of us in this one-day's-drive area who are interested in these kinds of questions would probably get a lot from a two-day get-together where we could compare notes in serious detail and learn a few things from each other.

We all have ridiculously busy lives, I know, but this doesn't seem like a really impossible idea, does it??

 

[Makalakumu]

Damn me for living in Superior. Double damn me for moving to Hawaii!

 

[exile]

Damn me for living in Superior. Double damn me for moving to Hawaii!

You're not in Hawaii now, though, are you, J? It would be just a few extra hours running time for you... we can make it to Detroit in under four hours from here, so...

 

[terryl965]

You're not in Hawaii now, though, are you, J? It would be just a few extra hours running time for you... we can make it to Detroit in under four hours from here, so...

With enough time I can do my best to be there. All that know me know I can show better then typing it.

 

[Jade Tigress]

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[newGuy12]

... and that's face to face!

I'm getting an idea here... we three are in the general central NE/Mid-Atlantic/eastern Midwest area, right? The Perimeter of Pennsylvania, as I think of it... and MBuzzy is just a bit north of me in A-hiya, and I know Kwan Jang is in Tennesee, just one state south of us... with enough lead time, it wouldn't be too hard for a bunch of us with these shared interests to get together to do some training, boon hae comparisons, technique analysis, the kind of thing we're struggling to do via what is really a pretty difficult medium for that purpose. The KMAists on the board are strung out from sea to shining sea, but those of us in this one-day's-drive area who are interested in these kinds of questions would probably get a lot from a two-day get-together where we could compare notes in serious detail and learn a few things from each other.

We all have ridiculously busy lives, I know, but this doesn't seem like a really impossible idea, does it??

I would hope that if ever such a face-to-face happens, that it will be recorded for posterity, hopefully with the digital video and audio. This whole matter of what this thread is about is very important, and who knows what might get hammered out.

Now, we all know that if some consensus is reached, it should be shared, not hidden away! Meanwhile I will lurk about, because you all have much to offer about this!!!

 

[exile]

With enough time I can do my best to be there. All that know me know I can show better then typing it.

That would be outstanding, Terry! And yes, I know what you mean... describing a complex, rapid, continuous three dimensional action by typing in a series of sentences is probably never going to be very successful. I mean... the good MAs books supply really well-done photo sequences, and even then, it's often hard to see just what the technique is supposed to be.

On another note: please, folks, we have now gotten the Second Mod Warning, and that's something that people need to take seriously. Any personal insult or ad hominem attack at this point is going to land whoever does it in Big Trouble. If you put your views out for consideration, you have to face the possibility of getting them challenged; the best response is a cool, rational reply where you lay your evidence out and make the best case for your point of view. All that calling people names accomplishes is make you look like someone who doesn't have a strong enough position to let it speak for itself.

So it would be wise to think before going weapons-hot, and find a more constructive response. And as they say about gravity, it's not just a Good Idea,... it's the Law. :wink1:

 

[JWLuiza]

Errant108 and I could road trip up from MD. Then we could facepunch each other to be BFF.

 

[Errant108]

Errant108 and I could road trip up from MD. Then we could facepunch each other to be BFF.

Ha!

Soju's on me.

 

[exile]

Errant108 and I could road trip up from MD. Then we could facepunch each other to be BFF.

Yeah, Maryland's right in the neightborhood... we're probably only five or six hours away from Baltimore here.

 

[Errant108]

I could host it here at the temple if you'd like.

 

[JWLuiza]

Yeah, Maryland's right in the neightborhood... we're probably only five or six hours away from Baltimore here.

So we need a location and a time frame. I am thinking early May or early June.

 

[exile]

So we need a location and a time frame. I am thinking early May or early June.

Early June would be best for me—this is my heavy teaching quarter, and it's a bit hard to escape; but we're done in the first week in June.

 

[JWLuiza]

Early June would be best for me—this is my heavy teaching quarter, and it's a bit hard to escape; but we're done in the first week in June.

Cool. My mom is getting a mastectomy tomorrow, so I'm gonna be worried about getting her all healed up over the next few weeks, so March/April is out for me. End of May and End of June is vacation/family stuff.... So early June is great for me.

Should we move this to a Meet-up section?

 

[exile]

Cool. My mom is getting a mastectomy tomorrow, so I'm gonna be worried about getting her all healed up over the next few weeks, so March/April is out for me.

Ah, hell, JL, I'm sorry to hear about your mom... my mother had the same thing about thirty years ago; she did fine. But it's awful to have to have that on your mind...

End of May and End of June is vacation/family stuff.... So early June is great for me.

Should we move this to a Meet-up section?

Good idea! I've got to teach an early class so have to get to bed right now... someone think of a catchy name for the get-together that's kind of emerging here and we can start a thread in the Seminars, Camps, Events & Tournaments forum.

 

[JWLuiza]

"You say Chamber I say Hikite" for further Meet Up discussion.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Disagreeing with you is not discreditting you. I never attacked your credentials.

I also never attacked your credentials, so where does this come into play?
Being condesending is not the same as disagreeing.

I say those things because that is my position in this discussion and has been in the beginning. I do not advocate theory.

Fine, but as you said it's your position and you strongly, by use of those things you said, refuse to recognize the "other side of the coin" so to speak. Your total disregard of the simple fact that forms were designed so practicioners could self train, regardless of the position of not advocating theory, they are in fact being put together by theory, at least the newer forms.

You want counterpoints and they have been given, but apparently not to your liking, so you insist on additional ones. The original purpose of this thread was the application of poomsae in SD. A simple beginners form was offered, with the stipulation of review of the given movements as they are taught. This was apparently also not to your liking, for you discarded these movements and inserted your own positioning on what should be and this was not the intent of the post. There are many things that could/should be, but that is not focal point of the subject matter. Looking at the given movement within the form and seeing SD value or not was the intent.

Since it appears to me that semantics are involved, I offer this. I did not call you stupid, I said the response posted was stupid. Many learned people have at times made a stupid comment, does this mean that they are stupid? You took extra exception to the statement because it was in direct counter to your personal position, which I feel is wrong, but you are intitled to it. My initial post was simplistic in nature. It was an offer to look at a given application and it's direct effect on the attacker body (bio-machanics) and if there was any SD value to it, nothing more. nothing less. I would not call that theory, but semi-practical application. One should know how a body reacts when met with force, so a more informed assessment can be obtained on the subject of "application of TKD poomsae in SD.