Apologize? I would have tackled them!

[CanuckMA]

Yeah, I didn't get it either. The guy was standing in the entrance of a doorway that was adjacent to a large empty lobby type room. About all I could imagine was that maybe he thought it was an alcove and the door would be unused while he stood in it. But I can't imagine why he could not move once he started and realized that people were lining up trying to get in and out of the door. A mistake is easy to understand, but a bit less so to close one's eyes and pretend nobody is being inconvenienced by that mistake. God won't understand if the guy shuffles his feet a few yards over?

I also think that sometimes there is cultural insensitivity that goes both ways. Here in Detroit, we've had some problems with orthodox folks walking to synagogue in neighborhoods that are no longer as safe as they once where; they've been harassed and even assaulted a few times. While demanding additional police protection (which is reasonable, I feel), they were also approached by a local Christian church, who offered to give rides and walk with them to synagogue to add 'strength in numbers' as a solidarity offer. They were rebuffed, in my opinion, rather rudely. The response? "Nobody asked you for help." Period. OK, then. No help. Got it. Good luck to ya.

I respect the Hasidim. Some of them could use a few lessons in manners, IMHO. Yes, I know they have their own way - but they live in a society that observes a few other rules, like politeness. We respect them; they could maybe insert the words 'please' and 'thank you' in a few of their sentences.

I hope you understand, this is not an attack. Just an observation based on my experiences; cultural understanding and respect goes both ways.

Yeah, I get you. Rides they could not have taken. But walking? There is a precept that I cannot ask a Gentile to perform an action that is prohibited to me, to benefit me. Could the fear that the helper would have, say, pushed the 'walk' button on a traffic light come in play? sure. But it could have been handled better. There is a segment of Orthodoxy that is a bit too insular, and truly don't get that the rest of the world may not understand them.

 

[CanuckMA]

I know, that is why I italicized the words. My comments were in regards to what they were perceived to be.

Which brings us back to the question, had they prayed sitting in their seat, wearing tallit and tefilin and chanting Hebrew, would the reaction been the same? Sadly, I'm inclined to say yes.

 

[granfire]

In the context of the above picture, especially now with the knowledge of what they are, they do not appear to be dangerous. It doesn't have to be a bomb to be dangerous. Now imagine three men refusing to follow instructions to remain seated and begin pulling these black devices and electrical tape out of their bags.

This incident also says something about the confidence in the security theater screening procedures prior to the flight.

In these times, how can one be sure, if even shoes and underwear are not safe. These things are alien looking....

(however, praying like that on a plane can very well turn into a life threatening even...we are living in interesting times...)

 

[Empty Hands]

I know, that is why I italicized the words. My comments were in regards to what they were perceived to be.

I understand your point, but I do wonder why anyone would be scared of electrical tape. It insulates, not conducts, and thus would make a very poor bomb making material.

 

[granfire]

I understand your point, but I do wonder why anyone would be scared of electrical tape. It insulates, not conducts, and thus would make a very poor bomb making material.

I suppose we watch too much TV: Massive amounts used to tie sticks of dynamite together...

 

[Empty Hands]

There is a segment of Orthodoxy that is a bit too insular, and truly don't get that the rest of the world may not understand them.

There is a certain type of person, of any religious faith, ethnicity or similar, who takes pride in not being a part of the world, in a way that approaches ostentation and arrogance. I'm sure that such people do not make your life any easier as you attempt to reconcile life in a secular country with restrictive religious requirements.

 

[CanuckMA]

There is a certain type of person, of any religious faith, ethnicity or similar, who takes pride in not being a part of the world, in a way that approaches ostentation and arrogance. I'm sure that such people do not make your life any easier as you attempt to reconcile life in a secular country with restrictive religious requirements.

It's not so much that they take pride in it, it's more that in a large way they don't have to. They live and work in small, mostly self contained, communities.

Thet are not the ones that make it easier. On the contrary, it's the more liberal individuals that make it harder to reconcile secular and religious. ry explaining to your boss that I have to be home before sundown on Friday and that I'm not available on Saturday, when he'll just retort "well, David there is also a Jew and works Saturdays". Or worse yet whe the boss himself is a secular Jew. I've had much easier time working for devout Xtians than secular Jews. The Xtians may not 'get' my religion, but they do understand religious commitments.

 

[jks9199]

I also think that sometimes there is cultural insensitivity that goes both ways. Here in Detroit, we've had some problems with orthodox folks walking to synagogue in neighborhoods that are no longer as safe as they once where; they've been harassed and even assaulted a few times. While demanding additional police protection (which is reasonable, I feel), they were also approached by a local Christian church, who offered to give rides and walk with them to synagogue to add 'strength in numbers' as a solidarity offer. They were rebuffed, in my opinion, rather rudely. The response? "Nobody asked you for help." Period. OK, then. No help. Got it. Good luck to ya.

I respect the Hasidim. Some of them could use a few lessons in manners, IMHO. Yes, I know they have their own way - but they live in a society that observes a few other rules, like politeness. We respect them; they could maybe insert the words 'please' and 'thank you' in a few of their sentences.

I hope you understand, this is not an attack. Just an observation based on my experiences; cultural understanding and respect goes both ways.

If they are very orthodox, they cannot accept a ride on the Sabbath, absent extreme emergencies, as I understand it. I forget all the details, but as part of honoring the Sabbath they don't work or cause others to work unnecessarily -- and some interpretations go so far as to say turning on a light bulb is work.

 

[crushing]

I understand your point, but I do wonder why anyone would be scared of electrical tape. It insulates, not conducts, and thus would make a very poor bomb making material.

On occasion, people have been known to connect pieces or lengths of conductive material with strips of insulating material. For kicks I googled electrical tape bomb and found some interesting projects.

 

[Empty Hands]

For kicks I googled electrical tape bomb and found some interesting projects.

You may hear a sudden knock on the door in the next few minutes.

 

[KELLYG]

I have never seen teffilin before. I think that it would have freaked me out. That and not obeying the commands of the flight attendants would probably freaked me out further. However, if I was instructed as to what they were doing and why, then I would say go for it, as long as it did not hurt anyone or cause a hazardous situation. Thanks for this thread I learned a lot.

 

[CanuckMA]

If they are very orthodox, they cannot accept a ride on the Sabbath, absent extreme emergencies, as I understand it. I forget all the details, but as part of honoring the Sabbath they don't work or cause others to work unnecessarily -- and some interpretations go so far as to say turning on a light bulb is work.

Something like that. It gets very complex and technical, there is a reason why we produce so many lawyers :ultracool

It's not work per say. I can move a piano from room to room all day on Shabbat, but I can't turn on a light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activities_prohibited_on_Shabbat is a good explanation.

The light thing comes from the idea that we are not allowed to complete someyhing, and throwing a switch completes the circuit. Incadescent bulbs also fall under the prohibition of cooking.

Work started prior to Shabbat can continue. That's why I can leave a crock pot on, or a light burning. It's also how using a timer on a light is permitted. It is set in motion prior to Shabbat.

I'm also not permitted to ask someone to do prohibited to me. I can't knock on my neighbours door on Friday night and ask hime to come turn on a light.

All but three of the 613 commendments can be broken to directly save a life. The 3 are: desecrating the name of G-d, taking of a life unless in self defense or doing a prohibited sexual act.

The rules around the taking a life are interesting, and when explained the right way sound very much like the Three Laws of Robotics, not so surpringly.

 

[jks9199]

Something like that. It gets very complex and technical, there is a reason why we produce so many lawyers :ultracool

It's not work per say. I can move a piano from room to room all day on Shabbat, but I can't turn on a light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activities_prohibited_on_Shabbat is a good explanation.

The light thing comes from the idea that we are not allowed to complete someyhing, and throwing a switch completes the circuit. Incadescent bulbs also fall under the prohibition of cooking.

Work started prior to Shabbat can continue. That's why I can leave a crock pot on, or a light burning. It's also how using a timer on a light is permitted. It is set in motion prior to Shabbat.

I'm also not permitted to ask someone to do prohibited to me. I can't knock on my neighbours door on Friday night and ask hime to come turn on a light.

All but three of the 613 commendments can be broken to directly save a life. The 3 are: desecrating the name of G-d, taking of a life unless in self defense or doing a prohibited sexual act.

The rules around the taking a life are interesting, and when explained the right way sound very much like the Three Laws of Robotics, not so surpringly.

Thanks. I knew it was complicated; there was an issue recently in the DC area with some sort of real estate boundary related to Sabbath activities, and there was an extensive article about it. I knew that some observant Jews essentially set up everything on Friday afternoon so that they wouldn't have to turn lights on, cook, etc. on Saturday.

 

[granfire]

Something like that. It gets very complex and technical, there is a reason why we produce so many lawyers :ultracool

It's not work per say. I can move a piano from room to room all day on Shabbat, but I can't turn on a light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activities_prohibited_on_Shabbat is a good explanation.

The light thing comes from the idea that we are not allowed to complete someyhing, and throwing a switch completes the circuit. Incadescent bulbs also fall under the prohibition of cooking.

Work started prior to Shabbat can continue. That's why I can leave a crock pot on, or a light burning. It's also how using a timer on a light is permitted. It is set in motion prior to Shabbat.

I'm also not permitted to ask someone to do prohibited to me. I can't knock on my neighbours door on Friday night and ask hime to come turn on a light.

All but three of the 613 commendments can be broken to directly save a life. The 3 are: desecrating the name of G-d, taking of a life unless in self defense or doing a prohibited sexual act.

The rules around the taking a life are interesting, and when explained the right way sound very much like the Three Laws of Robotics, not so surpringly.

I suppose cussing and getting it on does not necessarily save lives...

But pardon me a really dumb question: If you can't cook....what about the coffee?
Make it Friday and hope the thermos keeps it fresh (oh, yeah, the time... never mind then)

 

[granfire]

You may hear a sudden knock on the door in the next few minutes.

No kidding....

 

[CanuckMA]

I suppose cussing and getting it on does not necessarily save lives...

But pardon me a really dumb question: If you can't cook....what about the coffee?
Make it Friday and hope the thermos keeps it fresh (oh, yeah, the time... never mind then)

Coffee, make it Friday or do without.

In the winter, the typical Saturday lunch meal is cholent, a slow cooked stew, started Friday before sundown in a crockpot.

 

[CanuckMA]

Thanks. I knew it was complicated; there was an issue recently in the DC area with some sort of real estate boundary related to Sabbath activities, and there was an extensive article about it. I knew that some observant Jews essentially set up everything on Friday afternoon so that they wouldn't have to turn lights on, cook, etc. on Saturday.

What you are likely refering to is called an Eruv. Essentially, you can't carry between domains, private and public. There is also a restriction on how far you can walk. An Eruv is an 'enclosed boundary designated as a private domain where you can walk and carry. In an urban environment, something is trung usually around the light poles. The wire must be contigous, and someeone is responsible to walk the length of the Eruv friday afternoon to ensure it's not broken.

It's complex, but you get used to it.

There is somethng absolutely about a mandated day where all normal activities are suspended. It just slows you down and helps you focus and friends and family.

 

[MJS]

In these times, how can one be sure, if even shoes and underwear are not safe. These things are alien looking....

(however, praying like that on a plane can very well turn into a life threatening even...we are living in interesting times...)

Exactly! I think thats the point some of us are trying to make. Nowadays, these guys can turn pretty much anything into a bomb. Who would've thought they'd try to put a bomb in a pair of shoes.

 

[jks9199]

What you are likely refering to is called an Eruv. Essentially, you can't carry between domains, private and public. There is also a restriction on how far you can walk. An Eruv is an 'enclosed boundary designated as a private domain where you can walk and carry. In an urban environment, something is trung usually around the light poles. The wire must be contigous, and someeone is responsible to walk the length of the Eruv friday afternoon to ensure it's not broken.

It's complex, but you get used to it.

There is somethng absolutely about a mandated day where all normal activities are suspended. It just slows you down and helps you focus and friends and family.

There is at that.

I do think it was an eruv; apparently, as I recall, there were some zoning changes or road construction that was complicating the ability to make that contiguous perimeter. In fact, I think dug up the article.

 

[granfire]

Coffee, make it Friday or do without.

In the winter, the typical Saturday lunch meal is cholent, a slow cooked stew, started Friday before sundown in a crockpot.

(do without coffee?! )

I bet the stew is awesome...

can I come over for latkes though? I promise I bring Geld... (I know, long time off still)