Apologize? I would have tackled them!

[MJS]

If the flight crew had more training, does anyone think that this would help to ease the tension, fear, concern, etc, amongst the other passengers on the plane? I mean, people (why I dont know) put faith in TSA to screen luggage and passengers, yet we've seen how reliable they are with that. That being said, I wonder how many passengers would actually take the word of the flight crew that everything will be ok, and the people chanting things in another language, disregarding orders to stay seated, acting odd and strapping things to their bodies, are just praying. Everything will be ok.

 

[shesulsa]

If the flight crew had more training, does anyone think that this would help to ease the tension, fear, concern, etc, amongst the other passengers on the plane? I mean, people (why I dont know) put faith in TSA to screen luggage and passengers, yet we've seen how reliable they are with that. That being said, I wonder how many passengers would actually take the word of the flight crew that everything will be ok, and the people chanting things in another language, disregarding orders to stay seated, acting odd and strapping things to their bodies, are just praying. Everything will be ok.

I dunno. I would hope that it would help breed understanding and it would probably indicate the need for continued vigilance on the part of the crew or air marshall ... but then I'm an untrusting soul meself.

What do you think??

 

[MJS]

I dunno. I would hope that it would help breed understanding and it would probably indicate the need for continued vigilance on the part of the crew or air marshall ... but then I'm an untrusting soul meself.

What do you think??

Well, IMO, training is something thats very important but many times, neglected. Would it benefit the airline staff? Who knows. IIRC, I asked a silimar question earlier. Oh yeah, right here. May've missed it, but I dont recall ever getting an answer to that question. Hmm...oh well.....anyways....

As I said, I'm all for making everyone involved in the flight, as far as staff goes, more aware, but it seems to me that some think that THAT is the end all, be all answer. What about the people on the flight? Just because the crew, TSA, etc, may've gone thru extra training, doesnt mean the passengers have. Some people who fly on a regular basis, probably still to this day, all these years later, cringe at the thought of getting hijacked. I dont fly nearly as much as some do, but yeah, these things cross my mind when I do fly. Paranoid? Not at all. But yes, if I saw a group of people doing what these guys did, I'd expect some answers. Again, I'm not against praying, but, if its going to cause a stir, well, people need to exercise something that many times is lacking, and thats common sense!!!!!!

So, once again, how is training crew going to ease the passengers potential fears or concerns? Given the wonderful track record of the folks (TSA) who're supposed to be entrusted with making sure nothing suspect gets on the plane, are people really going to take the word of the flight crew, who probably went thru 1 8hr class, if that, on religion, that the folks that're acting weird, are really ok?

 

[shesulsa]

Well, IMO, training is something thats very important but many times, neglected. Would it benefit the airline staff? Who knows. IIRC, I asked a silimar question earlier. Oh yeah, right here. May've missed it, but I dont recall ever getting an answer to that question. Hmm...oh well.....anyways....

I guess my scan/read interpreted it as more of a rhetorical question rather than a serious one. I suppose what I envision myself doing in that situation would be to have a presence in the cabin so if other passengers asked or expressed concern about the situation I could answer them and reassure them for safety. I do, however, remain abjectly defensive of the point that these men should have 1. answered the queries to the satisfaction of the crew and 2. followed the directions given to them. I'm sensitive to their ritual for prayer, but it doesn't seem logical to schedule a flight for yourself if you're going to have to disobey all safety laws and regulations to the detriment of all passengers. If it's something that can't be avoided, special arrangements should be made with the airline and crew in advance.

As I said, I'm all for making everyone involved in the flight, as far as staff goes, more aware, but it seems to me that some think that THAT is the end all, be all answer. What about the people on the flight? Just because the crew, TSA, etc, may've gone thru extra training, doesnt mean the passengers have. Some people who fly on a regular basis, probably still to this day, all these years later, cringe at the thought of getting hijacked. I dont fly nearly as much as some do, but yeah, these things cross my mind when I do fly. Paranoid? Not at all. But yes, if I saw a group of people doing what these guys did, I'd expect some answers. Again, I'm not against praying, but, if its going to cause a stir, well, people need to exercise something that many times is lacking, and thats common sense!!!!!!

I don't disagree.

So, once again, how is training crew going to ease the passengers potential fears or concerns? Given the wonderful track record of the folks (TSA) who're supposed to be entrusted with making sure nothing suspect gets on the plane, are people really going to take the word of the flight crew, who probably went thru 1 8hr class, if that, on religion, that the folks that're acting weird, are really ok?

The average Joe Citizen will, I think, allow themselves to be placated.

The passenger like you and me will remain uncomfortable and on top guard the entire time and will likely complain afterwards. As I said, when people are lighting shoes on fire and etcetera on planes, small boxes with straps on them JUST LOOK VERY SUSPICIOUS - and it would be EASY, I'm sure, to emulate this item and stock it with very real explosives or remote devices.

 

[Archangel M]

I'm sensitive to their ritual for prayer, but it doesn't seem logical to schedule a flight for yourself if you're going to have to disobey all safety laws and regulations to the detriment of all passengers. If it's something that can't be avoided, special arrangements should be made with the airline and crew in advance.

Thats where I'm at. A little common sense and some foresight on the worshipers part should be part of the equation here as well. Somehow these situations always seem to get played out as "look at the insensitive bigots" by the media.

 

[jks9199]

The conditions have to be just right. You need to be on a flight with Orthodox Jews. It needs to take off before sunrise and be long enough to land after the latest permitted time for morning prayer. There are not many such flights.

I agree that flight crews should be instructed. If I'm about to start morning prayers, do I inform a) people next to me?, b) across the aisle? c) in front?, d) behind?, e) flight crew?

Accounting for the rudeness of some people, it would be a lot simpler for everyone if the flight crews would have an understanding of what I'm doing should queries arise.

The conditions have to be just right. You need to be on a flight with Orthodox Jews. It needs to take off before sunrise and be long enough to land after the latest permitted time for morning prayer. There are not many such flights.

I agree that flight crews should be instructed. If I'm about to start morning prayers, do I inform a) people next to me?, b) across the aisle? c) in front?, d) behind?, e) flight crew?

Accounting for the rudeness of some people, it would be a lot simpler for everyone if the flight crews would have an understanding of what I'm doing should queries arise.[/quote]
Can you be interrupted in your prayers? Or, once begun, must they be completed without interruption barring life-threatening emergency?

I ask because this may explain some aspects of the original incident, and would guide who I'd suggest advising. If you can't be interrupted, I'd suggest notifying your nearest seatmates (same row or right behind), and the flight crew. Nothing major, just a simple statement along the lines of "I'm an Orthodox Jew, and about to begin my morning prayers. These are tefelin,and part of the ritual, and I'll be praying in Hebrew." If you can be interrupted -- just the people closest to you, just like you would if you were going to open a big book or something else that might be a mild disruption.

 

[CanuckMA]

Can you be interrupted in your prayers? Or, once begun, must they be completed without interruption barring life-threatening emergency?

I ask because this may explain some aspects of the original incident, and would guide who I'd suggest advising. If you can't be interrupted, I'd suggest notifying your nearest seatmates (same row or right behind), and the flight crew. Nothing major, just a simple statement along the lines of "I'm an Orthodox Jew, and about to begin my morning prayers. These are tefelin,and part of the ritual, and I'll be praying in Hebrew." If you can be interrupted -- just the people closest to you, just like you would if you were going to open a big book or something else that might be a mild disruption.

Can't be interrupted.

And I must say, the only times I've had to pray morning prayers aboard a plane were on flights to Israel, and there a LOT of men stand up to pray, and the overwhelming majority of the remaining passengers know what's going on.

Morning prayers, when said alone, only takes about 10, maybe 15 minutes at most.

 

[MJS]

I guess my scan/read interpreted it as more of a rhetorical question rather than a serious one. I suppose what I envision myself doing in that situation would be to have a presence in the cabin so if other passengers asked or expressed concern about the situation I could answer them and reassure them for safety. I do, however, remain abjectly defensive of the point that these men should have 1. answered the queries to the satisfaction of the crew and 2. followed the directions given to them. I'm sensitive to their ritual for prayer, but it doesn't seem logical to schedule a flight for yourself if you're going to have to disobey all safety laws and regulations to the detriment of all passengers. If it's something that can't be avoided, special arrangements should be made with the airline and crew in advance.

Agreed. Like I said, common sense.

I don't disagree.

The average Joe Citizen will, I think, allow themselves to be placated.

The passenger like you and me will remain uncomfortable and on top guard the entire time and will likely complain afterwards. As I said, when people are lighting shoes on fire and etcetera on planes, small boxes with straps on them JUST LOOK VERY SUSPICIOUS - and it would be EASY, I'm sure, to emulate this item and stock it with very real explosives or remote devices.

I probably would not only complain afterwards but at the moment as well. Personally, I'd rather not wait until we're in the air before I raised my concerns.

 

[granfire]

I probably would not only complain afterwards but at the moment as well. Personally, I'd rather not wait until we're in the air before I raised my concerns.

If you know before hand...

 

[shesulsa]

If you know before hand...

Or, again, if the crew are trained and can answer questions and reassure people....

There is, however, the matter of safety. Asking passengers to sit during the takeoff process is a matter of cabin safety - and not just the safety of the passengers who aren't buckled into their seats. If something happens during takeoff or not long after and the plane jolts somehow and bodies fly, they could fly into other people and seriously injure and/or kill other people.

It's not really a matter of religious intolerance, I think. It could be, and it certainly does have an element of ignorance ... but it is about safety.