Apologize? I would have tackled them!

[Bill Mattocks]

I actually feel sympathy for Alaska Airlines:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/airline-apologizes-for-plane-prayer-scare/?iref=NS1

Alaska Airlines has apologized for a weekend incident in which three Orthodox Jewish businessmen triggered security concerns by conducting a prayer ritual on board a flight to Los Angeles.
The men began praying out loud in Hebrew shortly after takeoff on Flight 241 from Mexico City. Flight attendants alerted the flight deck, which then called the tower and alerted law enforcement. When the plane arrived at Los Angeles International Airport, it was met by the FBI, Customs and Border Protection and airport police.

But wait, there's more...

Flight attendants instructed everyone to stay seated with their seatbelts fastened as the aircraft flew through turbulence shortly after takeoff. The three passengers disregarded repeated requests, however, and stood up several times to retrieve objects from their luggage in the overhead bin that the crew had never seen, including small black boxes fastened with what appeared to be black tape. The crew learned after the plane landed that these were tefillin boxes worn during the prayer ritual.
The men prayed aloud together in a language unfamiliar to the crew while wearing what appeared to be black tape and wires strapped to their forearms and foreheads and wires on their chests. Their actions and behavior made some other travelers and the crew uneasy. The three passengers responded, but provided very little explanation, to a flight attendant’s questions about the tefillin boxes and what they were doing.

Yes, I know what Tefillin is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefillin

And this has happened before on airplanes. I remember reading about a similar incident a couple years back.

However; I don't much care who is doing the praying or what they're praying about. Strapping little boxes to their heads whilst chanting and ignoring safety instructions gets you tackled and tied down, in my opinion. I'll apologize later, after we land; I have no intentions of being blown to little tiny bits because I'm afraid to offend someone's religious practices. Too bad for them; the airplane is not the place for it. Jewish, Muslim, Christian, whatever. Knock that crap off whilst on the plane, please.

I've only had one experience with someone wearing this religious article. I was trying to walk from a hotel parking garage to the main hotel, and there was a narrow passageway I had to walk down. One of the men wearing this was literally standing in front of the only exit, eyes shut, bowing and chanting, with this on his head. He utterly ignored everyone who was trying to get past him, he had completely blocked the doorway. People were trying to get his attention, he pretended he could not hear them and chanted louder. I finally pushed him out of the way. Sorry if I offended you, sir, but I need to get by and frankly, you don't have the right to block the doorway just because you chose that moment to respond to some religious requirement you have. I'm all for the right to do whatever you need to do, but don't get in my way and don't freak me out on a plane, thanks.

 

[Empty Hands]

While I understand the concern, this:

is clearly not a man wearing a bomb. A little religious education would do everyone some good, and at least prevent unnecessary panic.

That said, they certainly didn't acquit themselves well. Some sort of charge sounds appropriate, although it had better not be one of these new, ridiculous terrorism-related charges that we've invented in the past 10 years.

 

[Twin Fist]

or, they could NOT be asshats and do this silly **** ON A PLANE and scare the living crap out of everyone on the plane

 

[Aiki Lee]

You may find it silly, but they take it seriously. What they should have done was explain clearly to the crew what they were going to do.

 

[Twin Fist]

at the least.....

 

[Bill Mattocks]

While I understand the concern, this:

is clearly not a man wearing a bomb. A little religious education would do everyone some good, and at least prevent unnecessary panic.

That said, they certainly didn't acquit themselves well. Some sort of charge sounds appropriate, although it had better not be one of these new, ridiculous terrorism-related charges that we've invented in the past 10 years.

I do not know how the people on the plane in question were dressed. However, I have spent plenty of time in NYC, and we also have a Hasidic community here in Detroit; some dress somewhat more, er, conservatively than that. All black, black hats, huge long black beards, sidelocks, and so on. It can get a little intimidating-looking. Now have them all chanting at a loud volume, ignoring instructions from the crew and doing some of the things they were said to have done, like all go to the bathroom at the same time, with one guy 'standing guard' while the other two used the facilities...ah, that's not something I'd be feeling comfortable with.

And I'd react the same way if they rolled out prayer rugs and started chants to Allah with little boxes strapped to their heads. Or to Vishnu. Whatever.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Chance of dying in a terrorist attack: approximately 1 in 650,000 - and this is all terrorist attacks. I found no data for terrorist attacks on planes only.

Situations that are more common by at least an order of magnitude: getting a hole in one, bowling a 300 game, fatally slipping in the shower, dying in a car crash, being murdered (not terrorist), getting away with murder, finding a 4-leaf clover on the first try, dying from suicide, dying in a fall and dying from a catastrophic collision with an asteroid in the next 100 years.

The chances that the crackpot praying with a phylactery on his head, or a tinfoil hat to protect him from alien control, is gonna blow up the plane are astronomically low. It's this kind of thinking that's responsible for the TSA agent fondling me whenever I travel.

I wish we'd all just settle down a bit. Or at least hire better looking TSA agents.

 

[Empty Hands]

I do not know how the people on the plane in question were dressed.

Right, I was getting at the tefilin themselves, I didn't mean to imply that the men were all dressed in shawls and yarmulkes. My point is that the tefilin are obviously not explosives, and a little education would help anyone realize what they are when confronted with someone wearing one. That isn't meant to excuse their behavior, it was clearly a problem.

What I find funny is that my first and longest exposure to phylacteries was from Dungeons & Dragons, it's what a lich wears to preserve its undead life. Imagine my confusion when I read about Jews wearing phylacteries when I was much older.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

What I find funny is that my first and longest exposure to phylacteries was from Dungeons & Dragons, it's what a lich wears to preserve its undead life. Imagine my confusion when I read about Jews wearing phylacteries when I was much older.

+1 for geek solidarity

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Chance of dying in a terrorist attack: approximately 1 in 650,000 - and this is all terrorist attacks. I found no data for terrorist attacks on planes only.

Situations that are more common by at least an order of magnitude: getting a hole in one, bowling a 300 game, fatally slipping in the shower, dying in a car crash, being murdered (not terrorist), getting away with murder, finding a 4-leaf clover on the first try, dying from suicide, dying in a fall and dying from a catastrophic collision with an asteroid in the next 100 years.

The chances that the crackpot praying with a phylactery on his head, or a tinfoil hat to protect him from alien control, is gonna blow up the plane are astronomically low. It's this kind of thinking that's responsible for the TSA agent fondling me whenever I travel.

I wish we'd all just settle down a bit. Or at least hire better looking TSA agents.

I wish people understood statistics a bit better.

The odds are low as applied to a group. Not applicable to individuals. Let's put it another way.

The odds of winning a raffle are low. But someone will win the raffle. Would you like to be that person? If you don't buy a ticket, you can't be, you've excluded yourself from that group.

The odds of getting cancer are low. But someone will get cancer. Would you like to be that person? If you smoke, you might be increasing the risk that you are that person, but you can't exclude yourself from the group that might get cancer no matter what you do.

The odds of being in a bar fight are low. Lower for an individual who never goes in bars. Higher for a person who does. Higher still for a person who goes into bars in certain cities, and certain neighborhoods. The odds for the individual vary quite a bit based on lots of factors, but the only way to exclude oneself from the risk group is to not go in bars.

The odds of dying in a terrorist attack are of course very low. But people die in terrorist attacks. There are risk factors that make it more or less likely that you, as an individual, will be a member of the group that represents the victims of terrorist attacks. Certain occupations, such as a member of a military stationed in a war zone, or living in a particular geographical area, or being a passenger in a conveyance struck by terrorists such as bus, train, plane, or enroute to or from same, such as an airport terminal, etc. Again, you might be able to eliminate yourself from the risk group by not traveling, but if you travel, your risk is higher than a member of the general public.

All this said means this - companies sell insurance because the members of a risk group represent a predictable cost which can be offset by charging more for a premium than the anticipated payout will be. People buy insurance despite the fact that they have a low risk in the aggregate because if they happen to be the one ill fortune befalls, they wish to have the benefits of insurance applied to them.

By the same token, the chances of me being in a plane attacked by terrorists is quite low. But if I detect people behaving in an odd or frightening way on a plane, and ignoring employee instructions to sit down, etc, I'm going to have a problem with it. The 'odds' have very little to do with it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Right, I was getting at the tefilin themselves, I didn't mean to imply that the men were all dressed in shawls and yarmulkes. My point is that the tefilin are obviously not explosives, and a little education would help anyone realize what they are when confronted with someone wearing one. That isn't meant to excuse their behavior, it was clearly a problem.

I don't think they are 'obviously' not explosives. And asking every airline passenger to be up-to-date on the religious practices of some rather obscure sects (and yes, tefilim wearers are quite rare) is asking a bit much. There is simply no need for them to perform their rituals on the plane and especially not to ignore airline employee instructions.

Let me put it this way - if the flight attendant tells ME to sit down and I ignore him or her, I get hog-tied and handed over to the FBI when we land. But if I'm ignoring them for religious reasons it's OK? Not seeing that.

What I find funny is that my first and longest exposure to phylacteries was from Dungeons & Dragons, it's what a lich wears to preserve its undead life. Imagine my confusion when I read about Jews wearing phylacteries when I was much older.

Yeah, never did the D&D thing. For that matter, I'm an IT guy who doesn't play computer games. Never have. I don't get the idea of why they're supposed to be entertaining. No Gameboy, Xbox, or PlayStation for me. Never had 'em.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

The "it matters to this starfish" argument doesn't indicate not understanding statistics. It indicates having a different set of values.

Had the airline trained their staff better on identifying dangerous behavior, this would never have happened.

On the other hand, if I decide to blow up a plane I'm definitely planting a bomb in a phylactery after this.

 

[granfire]

Yeah, never did the D&D thing. For that matter, I'm an IT guy who doesn't play computer games. Never have. I don't get the idea of why they're supposed to be entertaining. No Gameboy, Xbox, or PlayStation for me. Never had 'em.

GASP!!!

<feint>

 

[MJS]

While I understand the concern, this:

is clearly not a man wearing a bomb. A little religious education would do everyone some good, and at least prevent unnecessary panic.

That said, they certainly didn't acquit themselves well. Some sort of charge sounds appropriate, although it had better not be one of these new, ridiculous terrorism-related charges that we've invented in the past 10 years.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. First, its not my job to learn about every single religion out there, except for the one I choose to practice. Second, given the fact that these **** bag terrorists will use every trick in the book to smuggle explosives on board a plane, yeah, I'd be a bit on edge if I saw guys that're in this pic. on a plane.

 

[MJS]

Chance of dying in a terrorist attack: approximately 1 in 650,000 - and this is all terrorist attacks. I found no data for terrorist attacks on planes only.

Situations that are more common by at least an order of magnitude: getting a hole in one, bowling a 300 game, fatally slipping in the shower, dying in a car crash, being murdered (not terrorist), getting away with murder, finding a 4-leaf clover on the first try, dying from suicide, dying in a fall and dying from a catastrophic collision with an asteroid in the next 100 years.

The chances that the crackpot praying with a phylactery on his head, or a tinfoil hat to protect him from alien control, is gonna blow up the plane are astronomically low. It's this kind of thinking that's responsible for the TSA agent fondling me whenever I travel.

I wish we'd all just settle down a bit. Or at least hire better looking TSA agents.

And I'll respectfully disagree with this as well. IMHO, its the relaxed type of attitude that people have, that the terrorist dirtbags take advantage of. Seems to me there've been quite a few terror attempts lately. That being said, I'd rather be more cautions than think it'll never happen.

 

[MJS]

I actually feel sympathy for Alaska Airlines:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/airline-apologizes-for-plane-prayer-scare/?iref=NS1


But wait, there's more...

Yes, I know what Tefillin is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefillin

And this has happened before on airplanes. I remember reading about a similar incident a couple years back.

However; I don't much care who is doing the praying or what they're praying about. Strapping little boxes to their heads whilst chanting and ignoring safety instructions gets you tackled and tied down, in my opinion. I'll apologize later, after we land; I have no intentions of being blown to little tiny bits because I'm afraid to offend someone's religious practices. Too bad for them; the airplane is not the place for it. Jewish, Muslim, Christian, whatever. Knock that crap off whilst on the plane, please.

I've only had one experience with someone wearing this religious article. I was trying to walk from a hotel parking garage to the main hotel, and there was a narrow passageway I had to walk down. One of the men wearing this was literally standing in front of the only exit, eyes shut, bowing and chanting, with this on his head. He utterly ignored everyone who was trying to get past him, he had completely blocked the doorway. People were trying to get his attention, he pretended he could not hear them and chanted louder. I finally pushed him out of the way. Sorry if I offended you, sir, but I need to get by and frankly, you don't have the right to block the doorway just because you chose that moment to respond to some religious requirement you have. I'm all for the right to do whatever you need to do, but don't get in my way and don't freak me out on a plane, thanks.

IMO, given the strong effects 9-11 had on people, I for one, wouldn't offer any apology for anything. I mean really, did these idiots actually think that by doing this stuff, that it wouldnt cause a stir? Are they that dumb? Apparently so, or they just dont give a ****. I may say a silent prayer to myself when I fly, hoping that we all have a safe trip. But I dont disregard the flight attendants, get up when I'm not supposed to, pray loud enough for the others to hear me and in another language and strap weird looking things to myself.

Sorry, doing stuff like that, is just inviting an *** whoopin!

 

[David43515]

The "it matters to this starfish" argument doesn't indicate not understanding statistics. It indicates having a different set of values.

Had the airline trained their staff better on identifying dangerous behavior, this would never have happened.

On the other hand, if I decide to blow up a plane I'm definitely planting a bomb in a phylactery after this.

I would say that ignoring the instructions of the flight crew IS dangerous behavior. That`s why it is usually considered a crime as well.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I would say that ignoring the instructions of the flight crew IS dangerous behavior. That`s why it is usually considered a crime as well.

This is a lot like use of force situations. The best use of force training teaches police how to avoid escalating a confrontation into a fight.

Had the flight crew been educated on this kind of behavior, they may not have needed to take it further.

On the other hand, I'm not discounting the possibility that these guys were being asshats and would have pushed the situation regardless.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Perhaps a dumb question but is there specific times of the day when those of the Hebrew or Muslim faith HAVE to pray? Like they get kicked out of the club, or get a penalty or something if they don't? Can it be made up for later, no problems? Surely there must be circumstances when you can't pray at the time as your community requires you to do.

There needs to be some common sense, you're on a friggn airplane, what till it lands.

 

[granfire]

Perhaps a dumb question but is there specific times of the day when those of the Hebrew or Muslim faith HAVE to pray? Like they get kicked out of the club, or get a penalty or something if they don't? Can it be made up for later, no problems? Surely there must be circumstances when you can't pray at the time as your community requires you to do.

There needs to be some common sense, you're on a friggn airplane, what till it lands.

I am sure there are provisions for make-up prayers though....