Anyone look into the inside of folding knives on the construction?

[Alan0354]

That's way too expensive. I am too cheap for that. Also, a lot of study knives are not that expensive.

Like I said over and over, My demand is NOT unreasonable. Based on result, almost 1/2 of the knives I bought is good. Problem is there's no way to tell unless opening it. AND you cannot buy a different model of the same brand even if you have one that is really good. Case in point the OFF-GRID Baby Rhino is the best, but the Enforce is crab.

 

[jks9199]

May I suggest that you aren't looking at the physics and stresses on the blade properly. You've taken apart some knives, and decided that the ball bearing design is too thin. Maybe some research into lock design and methods will help...

Of course, if you insist on using a knife as a pry bar, screwdriver, hammer, or pretty much anything other than a knife... There's no folder that'll do you well... For that matter, even a full tang will fail you eventually.

Good piece on locks: 13 Types of Knife Locking Mechanisms (with Pictures) - Marine Approved
Another: Folding Knife Lock Types Guide | KnivesAdvice
30 minutes of info... with moving pictures.:

 

[Dirty Dog]

What data do we have that show that this area is the failure point? Or are we just assum

Benchmade? Microtech? Chris Reeves? Those are my go to brands. I have been happy with all of them. Microtech is a fine tool and not something I would pry with. I work my Benchmade folders pretty hard. I have a fixed blade “pacific” from Chris Reeves that is rock solid and far more durable than anything I would ever need. Keep in mind that Microtech and Chris Reeves knives can set you back anywhere from $350.00 to $3,500.00 depending on model and materials. Benchmade is more reasonable for a work tool in general and are guaranteed. I am picky (persnickety even) and have never had a failure to function so that’s my best experience based advice.

Add Cold Steel to the list. They've got a reputation for solid work, and they're cheap, compared to the good stuff. Heck, Gerber and Buck make some decent, usable knives, and they're quite cheap.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's way too expensive. I am too cheap for that. Also, a lot of study knives are not that expensive.

Like I said over and over, My demand is NOT unreasonable.

You can say it over and over and over and over. Doesn't make it true. Expecting a small, cheap, folding knife to perform crowbar duty is unreasonable.

Based on result, almost 1/2 of the knives I bought is good.

You can say that over and over too. But until you do more than just look at them, you don't really have a clue if they're any good or not.

Problem is there's no way to tell unless opening it.

Yes, there is. You can tell how good they are without disassembling them. It's called using them. A real world evaluation is a bazillion times more worthwhile than just looking at it.

 

[Alan0354]

You can say it over and over and over and over. Doesn't make it true. Expecting a small, cheap, folding knife to perform crowbar duty is unreasonable.

You can say that over and over too. But until you do more than just look at them, you don't really have a clue if they're any good or not.

Yes, there is. You can tell how good they are without disassembling them. It's called using them. A real world evaluation is a bazillion times more worthwhile than just looking at it.

This is BS. There goes to show you have no idea about the mechanics and physics. You really have no common sense on how things works. You look at the video on testing, all of them are not expensive knives. Just most of them don't have ball bearings.

Please stop and read and THINK instead of start out by putting people down. You should be better than that to say only expensive knives are better. You have NO IDEA about physics.

 

[Alan0354]

Add Cold Steel to the list. They've got a reputation for solid work, and they're cheap, compared to the good stuff. Heck, Gerber and Buck make some decent, usable knives, and they're quite cheap.

So is OFF-GRID knives. You have NO IDEA about physics how to look at the weak points. In the video, it shows the tip of the blade can be a weak point. OF CAUSE, that's common sense. BUT there can be other weak points and I am looking at it also. THAT'S WHY ALL THE ONE I CHOSE IS TANTO OR WIDER KNIVES so the blade is not pointy and narrow. That's why I did not talk about it. IT'S COVERED!!!

I am trying to stay very objective and be polite with you. BUT you are really testing me. You have NO IDEA what you are talking just like gun smithing.

I wish people in Physics Forums are into knives, I bet we can really analyze the situation because they have the SCIENTIFIC knowledge. Too bad they don't, it's not their thing.

 

[Alan0354]

So is OFF-GRID knives.

May I suggest that you aren't looking at the physics and stresses on the blade properly. You've taken apart some knives, and decided that the ball bearing design is too thin. Maybe some research into lock design and methods will help...

Of course, if you insist on using a knife as a pry bar, screwdriver, hammer, or pretty much anything other than a knife... There's no folder that'll do you well... For that matter, even a full tang will fail you eventually.

Good piece on locks: 13 Types of Knife Locking Mechanisms (with Pictures) - Marine Approved
Another: Folding Knife Lock Types Guide | KnivesAdvice
30 minutes of info... with moving pictures.:

My question has nothing to do with locking if you read my thread. It's the pivot point that is weaken by the ball bearings.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That's way too expensive. I am too cheap for that. Also, a lot of study knives are not that expensive.

Like I said over and over, My demand is NOT unreasonable. Based on result, almost 1/2 of the knives I bought is good. Problem is there's no way to tell unless opening it. AND you cannot buy a different model of the same brand even if you have one that is really good. Case in point the OFF-GRID Baby Rhino is the best, but the Enforce is crab.

I understand that budget is a concern. Buy, and return if the product is unsatisfactory.

 

[Alan0354]

I understand that budget is a concern. Buy, and return if the product is unsatisfactory.

That's what I am going to do. I am trying to be nice, I even communicated with Amazon, they said it's ok, so that's what I am going to do. I am happy.

Too bad people talked about Cold Steel, I don't like anyone of them, I want the flipper tap so I can use the index finger to flip the knife!!! I really don't mind if I have to pay like $80 to $100, just not over $200 like some of the fancy ones. I want a knife that has a long extension to prevent the knife from being pushed back into my hand when I thrust like this picture:

You can see in the picture with the Red mark. This is for safety to prevent the knife from being driven into my hand when I thrust hard(shanking). Cold steel doesn't seem to have that many like that.

 

[Alan0354]

I look at the Cold Steel AD10, It doesn't have ball bearing, that's the reason this is a strong knife:

It's a decent knife, it's a little long, but I'll keep that in mind. It's about $100, so it's acceptable. Just I want the index finger flipper tap.


I am looking at this one, Steel Will Lennar:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QQF1TK6/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_3?smid=AVK2FQXQF9PPN&psc=1

No ball bearing, 3.25"

 

[drop bear]

So is OFF-GRID knives. You have NO IDEA about physics how to look at the weak points. In the video, it shows the tip of the blade can be a weak point. OF CAUSE, that's common sense. BUT there can be other weak points and I am looking at it also. THAT'S WHY ALL THE ONE I CHOSE IS TANTO OR WIDER KNIVES so the blade is not pointy and narrow. That's why I did not talk about it. IT'S COVERED!!!

I am trying to stay very objective and be polite with you. BUT you are really testing me. You have NO IDEA what you are talking just like gun smithing.

I wish people in Physics Forums are into knives, I bet we can really analyze the situation because they have the SCIENTIFIC knowledge. Too bad they don't, it's not their thing.

There are knife forums.

 

[Alan0354]

There are knife forums.

I tried that first already, somehow, everywhere talked about everything else instead of just tell me what did they see when open up their knives. Like I said, I so wish people in Physics Forums are into knives so they know exactly what I am asking for.

My question is so simple, I just want to find anyone that open their knives can tell me if they see anyone that is what I want and give me the name and I'll go look it up. That's it, not asking for opinions or judgement. Just someone that see the inside. I have to explain what I am looking for, thereby all the pictures. It's not to justify whether I am right or wrong. Just describe what I am looking for.

 

[tkdroamer]

Sure you can. Acoustic panels and other forms of sound dampening are readily available.
That said, I do not believe there is any need to forge small blades. The benefits of forging are mostly applicable only to large blades. Stock removal and a good heat treat will yield an outstanding blade.

You can feel anything you like, but that's not how it works. The right tool for the job. Using your own example, if you use the wrong size bit, you will destroy the screw. If you use a knife as a crowbar, you will destroy the knife.

If you want a Ferrari, you have to pay for a Ferrari. You can get a 74 Vega with 280,000 miles on it for cheap. But it's not really reasonable to complain that it won't perform like the Ferrari.

You do. Millions. But none of them will work as a crowbar. If you want tools other than what a knife is intended to do, maybe get a multitool. I like Gerber. Every car anybody in my family owns has one in the glovebox or center console.

It won't, if you use it for a knife.

So you want a knife that can do everything, but you don't actually use it for those things.

Those, like any other material, are in the price range of $5 to $20,000.
The Infidel, for example, which you say is too expensive. The standard blade for that knife is D2 with an HRC of 60-62. Mine is a limited run offering with a CPM-S30V blade. The HRC is 58-60.
The blade material is a minor factor in determining the price of a knife.

Taking a knife apart and taking measurements doesn't really tell you much. If you want to know if the knife is any good, use it for the intended purpose. If you insist on using it as a crowbar, a folder will always be your absolute worst choice. Get a fixed blade knife with a thick blade and a full tang. You will still destroy it, but it will last longer than any folder.

I want to see the Vega with 280,000 miles!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That's what I am going to do. I am trying to be nice, I even communicated with Amazon, they said it's ok, so that's what I am going to do. I am happy.

Too bad people talked about Cold Steel, I don't like anyone of them, I want the flipper tap so I can use the index finger to flip the knife!!! I really don't mind if I have to pay like $80 to $100, just not over $200 like some of the fancy ones. I want a knife that has a long extension to prevent the knife from being pushed back into my hand when I thrust like this picture:
View attachment 29174

You can see in the picture with the Red mark. This is for safety to prevent the knife from being driven into my hand when I thrust hard(shanking). Cold steel doesn't seem to have that many like that.

Look at Benchmade griptilian. It’s very grippy.

 

[Alan0354]

Look at Benchmade griptilian. It’s very grippy.

thanks, I just bought the second one of this, I cannot refuse when they are on sale for $24.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09G2FNM5C/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here is the picture of my 3 favorite knives from big to small:

They ALL fit everything I want, the part of the blade of my concern are at least 0.053", side frame of 0.06", wide blade front so it's not easy to break. Long index finger guard show as the RED arch. All heavy duty knives. On the big and the cheapest one at the top of the picture, everything is thick, I don't care how good the quality of the metal of the expensive, nothing beats the sheer thickness of the metal. The blade is 0.14" thick!!! hell, all 3 have 0.14" thick blade.

What I am looking for are not uncommon, just have to know which one. I bought the second big one(on top of the picture) that is 3.25" because that's the compromise between size and effectiveness.......AND price I cannot refuse. It's still a strong D2 steel blade with a lot of good reviews. One doesn't have to pay an arm or a leg for a good one.

Now, I can look for a 3.5" blade. That should be easier to find.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hi Alan,

I get physics. Yet physics is not always the answer for the question.
One knife might be great for the guy with the small farm and horrible for the EMT.
And yet there could be a knife with a good compromise and good overlap of usage.

I am a luddite and a fast adapter.
That means in some areas it takes me forever to engage the new tech, and in other areas I am on the cutting edge.
It also means that when I find something I have a tendency to stick with it.

e.g. Emerson Wave Knives are $1xx - $2xx when they were being made and now they are not the blades are going up for more than that on the used market. Or at least they did a year or so ago when I checked.

They have licensed the Wave Patent / Tech to the cheaper knife makers and one can get a $19-$50 on Amazon.
That part makes sense and it is cool.

And for those who have never used an original Emerson Wave, will never understand why after buying and testing them I do not like them.
The pull is too high a resistance to get a clean and continuous motion and open every time.

This has to do with some of what you are talking about and taking them apart one can see the difference mainly in the washer quality and tolerances and stack tolerance overall.

And even if the stack tolerance is within the original spec the material of the components are cheaper and have different mu, or coefficient of friction. The also have a different lubrication or no lubrication. Or if the original had none , the cheaper version may have some to offset the cheaper material (* even if made within the stack tolerance *).

I and one of my Black Belt students can have this discussion and he can list the washer plastic content and metal content and the differences and ... , I just do not have it memorized like he does. He was in the business of repairing equipment so it was part of his trade. Now he repairs industrial lasers.

Another example are Glocks (* I am not trying to start a Glock war if you (All posters / readers / lurkers) love them cool for you, I have a different opinion. *) , I was shooting a friends, who meticulous on care and maintenance (He waxes the bucket of his Kubota) and I had a K-B. I would type the letter together as that is the proper term but some Glock fanatics search for it as it stands for K-A-B-O-O-M. Which years ago was a term that was created to have these discussions with the Gen 3. Yes they have fixed any issues since then.
But I had a .40 cal KB in my hands while it discharged.

Supposedly , the feed angle is better and the triple internal safety are better. Yet on the handgun TV Show the Glock expert lost just about ever competition and each time and in between he complained so much I had to fast forward through him all the time, that it was the grip angle and he was not used to it. So one company has something they think is better. Some adapt, others who have not bought into only have iPhone and iGear as an example with Glock and only Glocks , and no other manufacturers. .
So I prefer to not appreciate any cool technology they may have because it takes away from my goals and then the accident / critical failure makes me always wonder , and not trusting a critical tool because of fear of critical failure I choose not to use them.

Also why I will not have a simple push lock on the back of a knife as I can grip most of them tightly ( Different discussion on grips in a different thread ) and have the lock be compromised the knife blade will flop free.
So, finding the person who is into physics or repair and maintenance , or material strength and o the same hobby is a small chance.

I am not saying do not post.
Just do not take it personal nor to be upset if people do not share your passion of that topic.

As to just taking them apart, everything can stack tolerance line up and have decent retention and strength, and still not meet the requirements of the user.

I like thicker point or tanto (Even half) points to pierce the inside of a door to access a lock or mechanical release.
I like half serrated for assistance to cut seatbelts and to have the blade be large enough so that the knuckle of the blade when closed is outside my fist grip. So I can use it to shatter a window if required.

Many EMTs may have a similar need for Seatbelts or clothes and yet the size of the handle I like would be large for most.
And what most people like would be nothing more than a hidden palm knife for me.

So the field application to me is more important, and the use case is critical for the review of the tool. Then if two are close or similar in some areas and different in others, then taking it apart to understand why is also good.

Also taking one apart to make sure its internal designs are good after it has passed the other tests is also a good plan.
Only for me I see the application and use case studies as more important for the initial discrimination / selection process.

 

[Alan0354]

I have been trying to clarify, I am not asking about what is important for the knife, that's subjective. I was very specific on one specific part of the the knife that I am concern with, NOT that it's the most important, it's just my specific question. I know different things are important to different people, but that's not this thread is about.

Of cause you can see the video on testing the knives, a few broke the tip of the blade, the shape of the blade is important, BUT that's not the question of this thread. For that, I tend to choose Tanto shape that the tip becomes wider fast as shown in the picture of my 3 knives.

It's interesting that you mention you want serrated knife, I want that too, it's just hard to find. I want my EDC to be able to cut the seat belt fast. I just found one interesting one:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09QBVJRY1/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=A2X6NDN9Z5CRN7&psc=1

This one also use bronze washer, not ball bearing. So the part I am concern with should be nice and robust without the cutout for the ball bearings.

I don't like the Emerson Wave Knives design that rely on the pants pocket to open the knife. What if it fails to hook onto the pants?!!! I only want flipper tap on the blade so I can flip the knife open with the index finger. Too bad that ruled out Cold Steel. I got to have the tap, it also serves to keep the knife more secure in the hand to prevent the knife being shove back into the hand when thrusting.

Those are all very important features I got to have with the knives, BUT I did not said that BECAUSE I am not asking for what is important, I just asked about the ONE specific thing in this thread. I am NOT asking for opinion, just if anyone open a knife, tell me if they see what I like and let me know the model so I can look at it.

People kept mistaken I was asking for opinion of a knife. then it would be like what you said that everyone has different needs. I think people read part of my post and assumed I was asking for opinion and start telling me that this part is NOT critical. I read your post 3 times before I reply back.

Ha ha, I bought a Glock 26, but I yet to fire it for over a year!!!

 

[jks9199]

I tried that first already, somehow, everywhere talked about everything else instead of just tell me what did they see when open up their knives. Like I said, I so wish people in Physics Forums are into knives so they know exactly what I am asking for.

My question is so simple, I just want to find anyone that open their knives can tell me if they see anyone that is what I want and give me the name and I'll go look it up. That's it, not asking for opinions or judgement. Just someone that see the inside. I have to explain what I am looking for, thereby all the pictures. It's not to justify whether I am right or wrong. Just describe what I am looking for.

If you're asking the same questions in different places, and getting the same answers in different places, maybe you should examine the point in common, and see if maybe your question isn't the problem....

 

[Alan0354]

If you're asking the same questions in different places, and getting the same answers in different places, maybe you should examine the point in common, and see if maybe your question isn't the problem....

Maybe I should specify loud and clear in the first post I am not asking for opinion, just observation. BUT how many times since I tried to clarify this point?

If only I can edit after one hour, I would have done that to add to the first post.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I have been trying to clarify, I am not asking about what is important for the knife, that's subjective. I was very specific on one specific part of the the knife that I am concern with, NOT that it's the most important, it's just my specific question. I know different things are important to different people, but that's not this thread is about.

Of cause you can see the video on testing the knives, a few broke the tip of the blade, the shape of the blade is important, BUT that's not the question of this thread. For that, I tend to choose Tanto shape that the tip becomes wider fast as shown in the picture of my 3 knives.

It's interesting that you mention you want serrated knife, I want that too, it's just hard to find. I want my EDC to be able to cut the seat belt fast. I just found one interesting one:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09QBVJRY1/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=A2X6NDN9Z5CRN7&psc=1

This one also use bronze washer, not ball bearing. So the part I am concern with should be nice and robust without the cutout for the ball bearings.

I don't like the Emerson Wave Knives design that rely on the pants pocket to open the knife. What if it fails to hook onto the pants?!!! I only want flipper tap on the blade so I can flip the knife open with the index finger. Too bad that ruled out Cold Steel. I got to have the tap, it also serves to keep the knife more secure in the hand to prevent the knife being shove back into the hand when thrusting.

Those are all very important features I got to have with the knives, BUT I did not said that BECAUSE I am not asking for what is important, I just asked about the ONE specific thing in this thread. I am NOT asking for opinion, just if anyone open a knife, tell me if they see what I like and let me know the model so I can look at it.

People kept mistaken I was asking for opinion of a knife. then it would be like what you said that everyone has different needs. I think people read part of my post and assumed I was asking for opinion and start telling me that this part is NOT critical. I read your post 3 times before I reply back.

Ha ha, I bought a Glock 26, but I yet to fire it for over a year!!!

The Flipper style have issues as well.
Balisong requires a couple of wrist movements.
The others usually require a loose screw for where it gets tightened.

I have used both, just does not fit my needs.

The secondary and beyond motions take too long in a situation when a knife is required for self defense.
And practice in a car the pull is not easy, yet not any harder than any other blade to clear and deploy .

I also have an Emerson Trainer which not only allows for day to day practice, it allows you to roll with a knife and see if you can clear and deploy it.


PS: I am not a fan of the FOX Karambit - just felt cheap and poorly made and as with 99.99% of all Karambits my hand aligns with the blade and my finger does not fit into the finger hole.


As to the Wave requiring pants to hook, yes true for a single motion deploy and open.
If pulled straight up it remains closed and can be handed to anyone asking you to clear your pockets.
It also can be opened with the thumb, just not the HUGE thumb hole that some like spider co use.