Anyone have any Endust?

[lalom]

And for those who don't care about the childish politics and who is upset with whom; who disrespected whom? What about the guy who just loves the art and appreciates learning dynamics from both organizations? c'mon...

I agree to disagree. What Mr. Hayes has against Soke (he's never said anything to me or anything in print) OR what Soke has against Mr. Hayes is their personal issue. Nobody has disrespected anyone's wife here. I've never personally heard either side disrespect each other. It's their immature children that continue to berade each others father with, "my dad is stronger than your dad" comments. What they have between each other as men and teachers of their perspective art, I leave it between them and attempt to continue to progress in my life journey of Budo.

 

[saru1968]

You surely can't be comparing SKH as the same level of Soke as per your 'Father analogy'

SKH was a student or moreso should have been a student like anyone else.

And not paying Shidoshi-Kai memberships is not childish politics.

But how about just leaving the thread to die unless you have something productive to add.

 

[Dale Seago]

If he is no longer actively training under a Shihan in the Bujinkan then he is a Godan, not a Shidoshi. Licenses for teaching need to be renewed annually. It is possible that he has been sending in his fee and renewing but if he is not actively training in the Bujinkan then it is a bit misleading.



Of course you would be allowed back in, but to do both would be poor etiquette IMO. . .


. . .Again, etiquette.


Guys, it is kinda like this, imagine you had a friend that says rude things about your wife, and/or just blatantly does things that disrespect her. Now, hanging out with this friend would also be disrespectful to your wife. It is a lot like that.

Now training with people that don’t have a history like that with Hatsumi sensei would not be an issue, but training in To Shin Do would be a slap in the face to Soke. You need to make a choice, simple as that.

Just depends where your loyalty is. No one said you had to train in either art. And before you say no one can tell you who or who not to train with read this (a more refined version appears in the current issue of Bujinmag www.bujinmag.com):

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=779796&postcount=164

And:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=779344&postcount=158

Markk Bush

Yep, pretty much how it looks from where I sit too, Markk.

 

[lalom]

You surely can't be comparing SKH as the same level of Soke as per your 'Father analogy'

I sure am. Don't like the analogy? Tough. This is how I see it. You can disagree if you desire.

But how about just leaving the thread to die unless you have something productive to add.

Feel better? I still see you contributing! I am so enamored with your productive responses!

 

[Don Roley]

What Mr. Hayes has against Soke (he's never said anything to me or anything in print) OR what Soke has against Mr. Hayes is their personal issue.

The fact that Hayes is not recognized as a teacher of Bujinkan is far from a personal issue between the two. It is something that people coming into the art must know if they are to make an informed choice.

Hayes is out in the eyes of Hatsumi. If you like Hayes, then that should not be a problem. If you are searching for what Hatsumi teachers, then you had best know that you will not get it from Hayes.

I prefer Hatsumi myself. I do not think Hayes is anywhere near his level. Strange of me to believe that, don't you think? :wink1:

 

[eyebeams]

I'd still like to know if Hayes has any licenses and if so, which ones at which level.

 

[lalom]

Hayes is out in the eyes of Hatsumi. If you like Hayes, then that should not be a problem. If you are searching for what Hatsumi teachers, then you had best know that you will not get it from Hayes.

Don, I agree with you on this one. My point in this is this: Hayes and Hatsumi are two different men with two different arts. Whether they are equal or not cannot be disputed. Mr. Hayes isn't better than Hatusmi and Hatsumi isn't better than Hayes. They are each heads of their own perspective organizations of which are distinct and separate. Bujinkan folks need to stop trying to compare the two arts with each other as to which one is right or not, better nor not. To-Shin Do people must do the same. Again, they are two different arts.

You prefer Hatsumi. Others prefer Hayes. Reasons for that are your own reasons. That is what prompted me to refer to those things as people trying to compare fathers in my earlier thread to which Saru1968 became agitated. What I mean by fathers is their headship in their organizations. Mr. Hayes doesn't know better then Soke in BBT. Soke doesn't know better than Hayes in To-Shin Do (boy, how many are gonna get upset with that one?). They are both "the source" for their perspective arts whether anyone likes the tone of that or not.

One question that is raised for me also is what about the guy who doesn't care about how all this present situation transpired in there being a perverbial line in the sand between BBT and TSD? Can he still be a part of both organizations? Soke hasn't banned anyone from training in another art has he? Can a Jinenkan or Genbukan train in the Bujinkan as well? There are those that don't care of the politics and just enjoy taijutsu and can unbaisedly assimilate teachings from the x-kan and To-Shin Do? Is this a problem to which Soke has directly prohibited?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Tough. This is how I see it.

Yeah, me too. That's why they call Hayes the father of American ninjutsu, right? He's just like a father - initially, he knows and is capable of everything, then you get a little older and realize that this guy doesn't know jack about anything. How's that for an analogy to take a slice at my rep?

Hatsumi isn't better than Hayes

Yes. He. Is.

There are those that don't care of the politics and just enjoy taijutsu and can unbaisedly assimilate teachings from the x-kan and To-Shin Do? Is this a problem to which Soke has directly prohibited?

Yes, and if you don't see it, it's because you don't want to. Either that, or your ego's writing checks your footwork can't cash. Or both.

 

[lalom]

Yeah, me too. That's why they call Hayes the father of American ninjutsu, right? He's just like a father - initially, he knows and is capable of everything, then you get a little older and realize that this guy doesn't know jack about anything. How's that for an analogy to take a slice at my rep?



Yes. He. Is.



Yes, and if you don't see it, it's because you don't want to. Either that, or your ego's writing checks your footwork can't cash. Or both.

My point exactly... Some people can't help themselves I guess.

 

[Dale Seago]

One question that is raised for me also is what about the guy who doesn't care about how all this present situation transpired in there being a perverbial line in the sand between BBT and TSD? Can he still be a part of both organizations?

On paper, at least: Probably, though not ethically.

Soke hasn't banned anyone from training in another art has he?

Yes: Genbukan & Jinenkan. He also stated a year or two ago that those training with SKH were "not welcome in the Bujinkan".

Can a Jinenkan or Genbukan train in the Bujinkan as well?

No, they can't. Not only does Hatsumi sensei prohibit this, but so do the heads of the Genbukan & Jinenkan as I recall.

There are those that don't care of the politics and just enjoy taijutsu and can unbaisedly assimilate teachings from the x-kan and To-Shin Do? Is this a problem to which Soke has directly prohibited?

Yes he has, and it is not merely a matter of "politics". If what Hatsumi sensei received and is transmitting from Takamatsu sensei were nothing more than a set of physical techniques, then it would make little difference whether you learned them from Hatsumi, Tanemura, Manaka, or Hayes. Unfortunately, that looks like the level of experience and martial maturity from which you're viewing this.

Shiigata ga nai. . .

 

[Don Roley]

Mr. Hayes isn't better than Hatusmi and Hatsumi isn't better than Hayes.

If we are talking about ninjutsu, you could not be more wrong.

Maybe Hayes has more experience with firearms than Hatsumi since pistols are banned in Japan. Only the police and the criminals have them. And maybe Hayes has a better understanding of legal situations in America in regards to self defense. I have not seen anything that indicates that, but it might be the case.

But if we are talking about things like kenjutsu, Shinden fudo ryu dakentaijutsu, bojutsu, Togakure ryu ninpo and shurikenjutsu then there is no way you can make the case that Hayes knows as much about the subject as Hatsumi.

 

[lalom]

What I have referred to as to each man not being better than the other is in regards to their perspective organizations and art. Soke obviously knows more about BBT than anyone and is the source. Hayes is more knowledgeable about TSD and is the source for it.

Agree or don't agree. That's okay too.

 

[lalom]

Yes he has, and it is not merely a matter of "politics".

Of course everyone can expect you to say this...

As Don Roley put it, basically we'll keep going round n-round about this... Those that seek Mr. Hayes' teachings will and those that seek to learn Hatsumi's will as well.

We should all just join Jinenkan and be done with this whole argument!

 

[MrFunnieman]

We should all just join Jinenkan and be done with this whole argument!

I second that motion.

Stage direction:
MrFunnieman slips quietly back to the Aikido forum, where Steven Seagal's technique and ethics are debated.

 

[Dale Seago]

Of course everyone can expect you to say this...

No, not everyone -- just those who are still "babies" in these arts.

Although in fairness, I should point out that I've only been involved in the Bujinkan for a bit over 22 years at this point. (I'm not even going to get into issues regarding rank, although like SKH, I'm never going to get any more from Hatsumi sensei. . .but for different reasons than SKH.)

As compared to . . .I'm sorry, how long did you say you've been training under Hatsumi sensei and/or recognized teachers under his guidance?

 

[Don Roley]

As compared to . . .I'm sorry, how long did you say you've been training under Hatsumi sensei and/or recognized teachers under his guidance?

Fair question. To make comparisons, you would really want to listen to people who have trained under both people.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Fair question. To make comparisons, you would really want to listen to people who have trained under both people.

I train occasionally on tuesdays and thirsdays with someone who has since 1975.

 

[Stealth]

Of course you would be allowed back in, but to do both would be poor etiquette IMO.

That was my only concern... Since I do not know of any Bujinkan Dojos around here, Toshindo is my only choice. If I had the opportunity I would still be training with the Bujinkan.

 

[lalom]

No, not everyone -- just those who are still "babies" in these arts.

Although in fairness, I should point out that I've only been involved in the Bujinkan for a bit over 22 years at this point. (I'm not even going to get into issues regarding rank, although like SKH, I'm never going to get any more from Hatsumi sensei. . .but for different reasons than SKH.)

As compared to . . .I'm sorry, how long did you say you've been training under Hatsumi sensei and/or recognized teachers under his guidance?

Okay here we go. Yeah, Yeah, "I too have been told that my taijutsu's better than SKH's." We've heard it before Dale. Please... "I'm not going to get into issues regarding rank..." whatever! You're the same as the rest of em'!

Here's about the time I say I'm done with this thread. Now the thread has changed to how we're NOT comparing our ranks. Oh my gosh! I'm done with this thread. Guess I'll go hang out with MrFunnieman in Steven Seagal's forum!

 

[Dale Seago]

I basically was just wondering if you'd gotten through puberty yet. You've answered that to my satisfaction, so thank you.

In any case, here's another interesting post. Whatever one thinks about RVD using the term "Master" or his misspelling of the Hombu Administrator's name, this looks pretty definitive:

Here is the follow-up on what Soke Hatsumi and the Bujinkan Hombu dojo officially state regarding Stephen Hayes and the ranking issue.

Since the question was one that only the Hombu Dojo could answer I contacted Soke Hatsumi through George Osashi (the Bujinkan Hombu Dojo administrator) providing him with the proper web-links and copies of the Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu, Togakure and other Toshindo Ryu diplomas that Mr. Hayes is issuing. I told him, “Many students are asking us about Mr. Hayes issuing specific ryu related certification diplomas such as the Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu as shown below. As a Senior Bujinkan member it is my understanding that this is a violation of Bujinkan rules. Please clarify if Mr. Hayes has been given the authority to issue these diploma licenses and ask if Soke Hatsumi now supports us in issuing diploma licenses?

This reply came directly from Soke Hatsumi: "Absolutely NOT! Stephen Hayes has not really been a Bujinkan member for many, many years (he has not paid any Shidoshi-kai fees, nor has done much training with us) and Steve has created his own system of Toshindo and has really left the Bujinkan by his actions."

At the next hombu dojo class Soke Hatsumi authorized the senior Bujinden Hombu Dojo Administration staff to remove Stephen Hayes' name board from the Bujinden Hombu Judan ranking board, no longer recognizing him as a Judan in the Bujinkan. This was witnessed by George Osashi, 12th dan & several 15th dans, including Phil Legare. Soke stated once again that since Mr. Hayes has not been a Bujinkan member for many years he feels it is now best to more formally authorize his removal as a Bujinkan member in this way.

Now we all know the true status of this matter. There are NO grey lines on this issue nor anything else to read into it. This is as official as it gets. It is wrong to issue these licenses, Soke does not aggree and Steve Hayes is not considered to be in the Bujinkan any longer.

Sincerely,
Richard Van Donk, Senior Bujinkan Shidoshi

http://www.ninjutsuforum.com/showpost.php?p=1691&postcount=14