Anyone have any Endust?
- Thread starter Edmund BlackAdder
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bydand
Senior Master
Don Roley said:
I couldn't agree more with you!
Don Roley said:
As a student that started in the Bujinkan and whose school shifted to To-Shin-Do, I could see this coming long ago. I am just kind of suprised it took this long. My hat is off to Hatsumi Sensei for being such a patient man and letting it slide for so long, I know I couldn't have "turned the other cheek" for such a long time. That is why I hold him such high esteem and wish I could show half as much wisdom and understanding as Hatsumi Sensei.
Don Roley said:
I wish it would happen like this, but don't forsee it. There has been so much Bujinkin -vs- To-Shin-Do discussion and bickering that I fear it will continue on, but at an accelerated pace for the near future. It just goes and makes BOTH "sides" look bad and turns the Arts I personally love into the laughing stocks of the MA world. "Look at them, they come from the same roots and can't agree to disagree" I can read it now. Just so there is zero debate over where I train: To-Shin-Do, because it is the only school within 6 hours of where I live and it is MUCH better than the others offered in my area (hodge-podge Partial Arts that are almost as effective as throwing oatmeal at your adversary.) I do know a Bujinkan instructor in the state and plan on trying to get back to some training through him also.
OP
OP
Edmund BlackAdder
<B>Rabid Wolverine</B>
wow. And all I was interested in was how did the trip go.
So, if what I read is true, Mr. Hayes is denying this is happening, only claiming that its an internet rumor started by people who were jealous of him?
Hmm.
Ok, So, is there anyone on here who witnessed this? Or is it just a rumor?
Hmm.
Ok, So, is there anyone on here who witnessed this? Or is it just a rumor?
Dale Seago
Black Belt
Well, lessee. . .
15th dan Phil Legare witnessed it at Hombu on May 14, heard Soke's explanation translated in near-real time by George Ohashi, Soke's Hombu Administrator, and announced it on his site on May 16.
The Hombu Administrator confirmed it a few days later in an announcement on his site (May 20).
So for SKH to still, as of today on his own blog, be calling it a "rumor" seems a little disingenuous at best.
15th dan Phil Legare witnessed it at Hombu on May 14, heard Soke's explanation translated in near-real time by George Ohashi, Soke's Hombu Administrator, and announced it on his site on May 16.
The Hombu Administrator confirmed it a few days later in an announcement on his site (May 20).
So for SKH to still, as of today on his own blog, be calling it a "rumor" seems a little disingenuous at best.
lalom
Green Belt
So, although Dale Seago has so eloquently documented all this that has transpired on this issue... Techno, no, no one here has witnessed this personally. It'll be interesting to see how this all finishes up. Apparently, Mr. Hayes has written Hatsumi sensei to find out personally from him his status since Soke's symbolic public gesture of things so private...
Dale Seago
Black Belt
As far as the "witnessed" part goes, one of my own students was training in the Hombu class during which SKH's name board was taken down, and he mentioned it to me on his return. However, he doesn't post on Internet forums. . .
lalom said:
Honestly... I went over and read what Mr. Hayes had to say about things, and I read what Mr. Ohashi wrote, and all I can say is wow.
Mr Hayes seems to have said on his own... uh, blog, I guess it is, that Hatsumi no longer teaches, only performs, and that he is has changed the art from the way things are done so it can actually be useful.
If *I* were Someones instructor, I would take a dim view of that being said of me as well... plus given Mr. Ohashi's status as Hombu administrator, I have no reason to doubt him.
Thanks for your responses guys, I didnt mean to dig this all up, I was just looking for clarification.
lalom said:
Anyone who wants to can see for themselves that the tablet is gone. It has been gone for a few weeks and has not been replaced. It is hard to believe at this point that Hatsumi is unaware of it being gone and the trouble on the internet that has gone on and yet he has not ordered it replaced. I know several people that were there, including the guy who was ordered by Hatsumi to take it down.
I don't think you can say that there is a lack of evidence unless you really, really don't want to accept reality. I have seen a few good people attacked over this matter for merely passing along the story as they were asked to. It sickens me to see that type of thing go on. To not like a fact and to try to discredit the messenger is not what I would call a good personality trait.
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
Technopunk said:
I would say, he's walking around, and interesting things happen around him while he's doing it.
My brain Hurts after all of this...
I used to train with the Tampa Bujinkan Shibu... I now train at a Quest Center under Mark Russo... I will say that Toshindo is more gimmicky, but by using the name Toshindo it helps to sell the product as self defense, and not an "assassin" art as many perceive Ninjutsu. Eh, I train where I can to get Ninjutsu training, it just so happens that the closest place is toshindo... Does that mean that I would not be accepted as a student in the Bujinkan? I don't have much of an option on where to train, and feel it insulting to think that I would no longer be bujinkan due to nowhere to train locally anymore except a Quest center...
I used to train with the Tampa Bujinkan Shibu... I now train at a Quest Center under Mark Russo... I will say that Toshindo is more gimmicky, but by using the name Toshindo it helps to sell the product as self defense, and not an "assassin" art as many perceive Ninjutsu. Eh, I train where I can to get Ninjutsu training, it just so happens that the closest place is toshindo... Does that mean that I would not be accepted as a student in the Bujinkan? I don't have much of an option on where to train, and feel it insulting to think that I would no longer be bujinkan due to nowhere to train locally anymore except a Quest center...
Dale Seago
Black Belt
Stealth said:
Yep, pretty much.
Toshindo is not, and never was, Bujinkan training as such.
On the other hand, a number of Toshindo instructors are separately ranked in the Bujinkan as well, and some of them (gasp!) even go and train periodically in Japan. I could be mistaken, but I think Mark Russo is also a Bujinkan shidoshi -- and just BTW, I've never heard anything bad about him.
Bottom line, though: You're only likely to be accepted as a student in the Bujinkan if you're training under a currently recognized Bujinkan instructor and have a current-year Bujinkan membership card from the Bujinkan hombu dojo in Japan.
Dale Seago said:
Yes, Mark Russo is a Bujinkan Shidoshi... But he teaches Toshindo. So would that make him no longer a Bujinkan Shidoshi?
Here is a funny question.... Since I did train in Bujinkan, and now train in Toshindo, I would never be allowed back into the Bujinkan since I started training in Toshindo??? What if I just ordered one of Van Donk's videos and tested up to my level? Would I then be again a member of the Bujinkan if I got my I.D. card? It all seems kind of silly to me. I understand that they are different in a sense, but just because I now train in one style of the art I should be banned from another?
This is in regards to the statements made about how Bujinkan Students are banned form learning Toshindo.
lalom
Green Belt
Stealth, I would imagine that one could still potentially ranked in both arts - either To-Shin Do or Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Of course them being separate arts, one would have to demonstrate whatever knowledge or technique is required for the requested kyu level by whatever teacher you are under. This would be the same for any other art for that matter.
About one being banned from training in either art? I don't think that is the case. Whoever said it must be wrong.
About one being banned from training in either art? I don't think that is the case. Whoever said it must be wrong.
Stealth said:
If he is no longer actively training under a Shihan in the Bujinkan then he is a Godan, not a Shidoshi. Licenses for teaching need to be renewed annually. It is possible that he has been sending in his fee and renewing but if he is not actively training in the Bujinkan then it is a bit misleading.
Of course you would be allowed back in, but to do both would be poor etiquette IMO.Stealth said:
I doubt RVD would let someone "test to their level", I think you would have to complete his program, after all, it is about business, but that's a whole other issue.Stealth said:
Again, etiquette.Stealth said:
lalom said:
lalom said:
Guys, it is kinda like this, imagine you had a friend that says rude things about your wife, and/or just blatantly does things that disrespect her. Now, hanging out with this friend would also be disrespectful to your wife. It is a lot like that.
Now training with people that don’t have a history like that with Hatsumi sensei would not be an issue, but training in To Shin Do would be a slap in the face to Soke. You need to make a choice, simple as that.
Just depends where your loyalty is. No one said you had to train in either art. And before you say no one can tell you who or who not to train with read this (a more refined version appears in the current issue of Bujinmag www.bujinmag.com):
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=779796&postcount=164
And:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=779344&postcount=158
Markk Bush
Tengu6 said:
Ah, I think snake made an excellent point there.
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