Any pointers, kata?

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, thank you! Every pose, posture of a kata has martial application. Whether or not one understands them is a different story. A kata may be practiced for a different reason, but that does not make the reason valid, or martial.

Well, that depends how you define "martial application". Some of the movements in my kata are there simply to challenge balance and smooth movement. Some are there to keep the kata more contained (in a physical space).

 

[MI_martialist]

Well, that depends how you define "martial application". Some of the movements in my kata are there simply to challenge balance and smooth movement. Some are there to keep the kata more contained (in a physical space).

This could be a couple of things. First, if there is movement simply to have movement, it is a total and complete waste of martial training time. More probably, the martial application is there, but you do not think of it as martial application. Challenge balance and smooth movement...stability and mobility, shifting, are all vital to fighting, are they not? As for space management, well...one can argue prevision of movement as one polishes application, or close quarter fighting, but you would have to drill those things. If it is truly only to save space, then you should rethink what it is you do in the kata.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This could be a couple of things. First, if there is movement simply to have movement, it is a total and complete waste of martial training time. More probably, the martial application is there, but you do not think of it as martial application. Challenge balance and smooth movement...stability and mobility, shifting, are all vital to fighting, are they not? As for space management, well...one can argue prevision of movement as one polishes application, or close quarter fighting, but you would have to drill those things. If it is truly only to save space, then you should rethink what it is you do in the kata.

You're saying there are martial applications I built into the kata without knowing them? Doubtful.

And no, a lack of direct application is not wasted time. Movement that challenges balance and smooth movement forces the students to work on those fundamental parts of their structure. They'll probably never make that oddly deep off-side turn into the Elbow Chop in the 1st Application Kata, but their off-side turns into other techniques will be smoother and better balanced for having been forced to do it.

As for the saving of space, that's so they can do the kata in smaller spaces. I could have gone with an easier choice in 3 places, but the kata would take the whole dojo.

 

[Sojobo]

Hello...are you comparing your training in Wado-ryu to Koryu bujutsu?

Shindo Yoshin-ryu have a set of exercises called 'Nairiki no Gyo'. These are solo forms that are designed develop and imbed core attributes such as balance, stability and correct muscular application. They are key to making the combative techniques / kata found within the greater curriculum of the system work!

Given that Hironori Otsuka was menkyo kaiden in Shindo Yoshin-ryu (prior to setting foot in a Karate dojo), I don't think it is surprising that he adopted a similar pedagogical approach when developing Wado-ryu.

 

[MI_martialist]

You're saying there are martial applications I built into the kata without knowing them? Doubtful.

And no, a lack of direct application is not wasted time. Movement that challenges balance and smooth movement forces the students to work on those fundamental parts of their structure. They'll probably never make that oddly deep off-side turn into the Elbow Chop in the 1st Application Kata, but their off-side turns into other techniques will be smoother and better balanced for having been forced to do it.

As for the saving of space, that's so they can do the kata in smaller spaces. I could have gone with an easier choice in 3 places, but the kata would take the whole dojo.

I am saying there is martial application but you do not see it as martial application. On a simple level, movements that challenge balance and smooth movement are fundamental to fighting, are they not? Are not balance, shifting, and movement core to managing distance and timing needed to fight? How is that not martial application? Now, were I to see the actual movement, I am sure there are other "technique" type applications involved.

Saving space...managing distance, movement, etc. These are martial strategies, are they not?

 

[MI_martialist]

Shindo Yoshin-ryu have a set of exercises called 'Nairiki no Gyo'. These are solo forms that are designed develop and imbed core attributes such as balance, stability and correct muscular application. They are key to making the combative techniques / kata found within the greater curriculum of the system work!

Given that Hironori Otsuka was menkyo kaiden in Shindo Yoshin-ryu (prior to setting foot in a Karate dojo), I don't think it is surprising that he adopted a similar pedagogical approach when developing Wado-ryu.

"Core attributes"...hmm...like core fundamentals needed to fight? Sounds martial to me...the problem is that people don't think basic enough. Balance, stability, shifting, mobility...these sound like core fundamentals necessary for fighting...martial application. So, these make the curriculum work? Yes! That sounds like martial application.

If the person was authentic Menkyo Kaiden, I would expect these to be not simply incorporated, but rather, part of everything that is done on the system.

 

[Sojobo]

"Core attributes"...hmm...like core fundamentals needed to fight? Sounds martial to me...the problem is that people don't think basic enough. Balance, stability, shifting, mobility...these sound like core fundamentals necessary for fighting...martial application. So, these make the curriculum work? Yes! That sounds like martial application.

Unless I am missing something - this seems to be at odds with what you originally said...

Before you do or learn the kata, do all of the potential armed and unarmed applications that are found, then do the kata and "relive" the applications as you do it.

What is kata without applications, after all?

You seem to suggest here that prior to learning and practicing solo kata (in order to imbed fundamentals like balance, stability, shifting and mobility) - you should first be exposed to all probable applications that may arise from having inculcated said qualities?

What are "all of the potential armed and unarmed applications"? - I would argue that it is impossible to know and confining the practice of kata into 'probabilities' is flawed and goes against its raison d'être.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am saying there is martial application but you do not see it as martial application. On a simple level, movements that challenge balance and smooth movement are fundamental to fighting, are they not? Are not balance, shifting, and movement core to managing distance and timing needed to fight? How is that not martial application? Now, were I to see the actual movement, I am sure there are other "technique" type applications involved.

Saving space...managing distance, movement, etc. These are martial strategies, are they not?

Actually, that's why I said it depends upon how you define "martial applications". To me, since we are training for SD, everything that improves technique is geared toward application. Forms, like drills, sometimes have only indirect application, but there is always application.

 

[MI_martialist]

Unless I am missing something - this seems to be at odds with what you originally said...

Hmm...I said that martial application needs to be trained before solo kata...so, core fundamentals need to be trained an an application environment before they are taught as kata. This way, the student know what the movements, poses, postures are of, and understands the application of them, thus making them meaningful, and not meaningless dance.



You seem to suggest here that prior to learning and practicing solo kata (in order to imbed fundamentals like balance, stability, shifting and mobility) - you should first be exposed to all probable applications that may arise from having inculcated said qualities?

No, if one does kata without training applications, there is no real application, so the kata becomes empty and dancelike.

What are "all of the potential armed and unarmed applications"? - I would argue that it is impossible to know and confining the practice of kata into 'probabilities' is flawed and goes against its raison d'être.

I would argue that it is not possible to know them all, thus making it a lifelong pursuit to understand and do them all...I really do not understand your point of "confining the practice of kata into probabilities"...and goes against the raison d'être...what are you saying?

 

[MI_martialist]

Actually, that's why I said it depends upon how you define "martial applications". To me, since we are training for SD, everything that improves technique is geared toward application. Forms, like drills, sometimes have only indirect application, but there is always application.

They all have application...and if we don't train the application, the work on the form with a productive method (imagery in a kata for example), then what are we really doing?

 

[Sojobo]

I would argue that it is not possible to know them all, thus making it a lifelong pursuit to understand and do them all

I didn't suggest that - you did!

I really do not understand your point of "confining the practice of kata into probabilities"...and goes against the raison d'être...what are you saying?

I'm not sure I can explain it any clearer.

[edit] my issue not yours.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

They all have application...and if we don't train the application, the work on the form with a productive method (imagery in a kata for example), then what are we really doing?

I'm not sure I follow how that relates to my comment:

Actually, that's why I said it depends upon how you define "martial applications". To me, since we are training for SD, everything that improves technique is geared toward application. Forms, like drills, sometimes have only indirect application, but there is always application.