any lord of the rings fans?

[Xue Sheng]

Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger

 

[bushidomartialarts]

you know that the 'nazgul scream' from the movies was made by peter jackson's wife?

how could they get her to make that sound, you ask?

peter told her he bought the rights to the silmarillion.

 

[HG1]

Thanks guys for the excellent posts. It's been a while since I've read the books. Here are some questions.

Illuvatar created the Valar, then together in song they created Middle Earth or the Universe?

Illuvatar had a plan(?) for mankind only known to himself. Was it ever explained?

The Valar were shown a vision by Illuvatar of what Middle Earth will look like. Those Valar that went to Middle Earth were responsible for making the vision a reality. Did I get it right?

Why did the Valar leave Middle Earth?

Were the Men of Numenor nearly wiped out for attempting to sail to the undying lands?

Is there any explanation of what happens to the Dwarf race during the fourth age?

I could go on but I'll stop here.

 

[stickarts]

Fan? You kidding? "Fan" would be an understatement

(although I did laugh *hard* at the Randall vs LoTR fan scene in Clerks II )

Stickarts: I had to laugh at what you wrote. In sixth grade, our teacher would have us come forward and read our favorite poems out loud to the class on occassion.

On one occassion, I read one one of the poems Tolkien wrote entirely in Elvish Talk about worried looks!

Me and a buddy also used to pass notes in Middle Earth languages. I had to look at your name and make sure I wasn't about to reconnect with a long-lost friend.



Me too — very much so. I get the same from the Silmarillion, although understandably most people just can't get into those stories as well as LoTR.

Somehow, his books touch me deep inside.

Good discussion, by the way.

- Faramir is also one of my favorite characters.

- Sam WAS very heroic. Based on the relationship of British officers and their enlisted orderlies, so I've read (They're not gay — they're HOBBITS! -- another Clerks II quote )

Tom Bombadill (Tom Bombadill-oh!): he was not Valar nor Maia. He was "first." From what I understand, he was the first created life in creation.
(He was based orginally on a toy Tolkien's children had )

The Ring had no power over him — nor did he have any power over the Ring. Two lines that just don't intersect.

- Sauron was NOT more powerful than the other Maia. He just brokered his power in a way that made him more powerful and more vulnerable by committing a great deal of his power and essence into the Ring. And he was unencumbered by any mandate of non-interference.

Back "in the day," there were even Elves who could defeat Sauron in a one-vs-one battle.

There was, by the way, a Maia that eventually grew so powerful by sucking the essence from the Silmarills that she made Morgoth Bauglir (formerly the Valar known as Melkor) afraid: Ungoliath, who took the form of a giant spider and belched and spun webs of darkness. She was the mother of the spiders that went on to terrorize the elves and attack Frodo and Sam.

She would have kicked Sauron's butt.

From what I understand, there were indeed five Maia that were sent to Middle Earth to help oppose Sauron.

Saruman the White, sent to the western men
Mithrandir the Grey, sent to the elves
Radagast the Brown, sent to the animals

and two others.

Mithrandir/Gandalf wasn't the ONLY one that stayed faithful — he just ended up being most involved in the action without becoming corrupt, like Saruman, or tricked into becoming mostly ineffective, like Radagast.

Presumably, the other two were semi-effective in that Sauron was not able to recruit as many of the other races of men as he would have liked, thanks to their efforts.

It is my belief (Christopher's copywrite notwithstanding )

that one of the other two was Sar'Dacat the Blue, sent to the seafaring and southern men.

The other, his name escapes me (because I haven't made it up yet.. cough.. ) was sent to the men of the east.

All jokes aside, I would very much like to write a couple of novels which would be about what these two Maia did during the Great War of the Ring.

Anybody want to help me convince Christopher to let me do it?

Scary that there are some other people out there like me!
Yeah, at the end of my paper that I handed in, I put a footnote "for more information, contact Dain Ironfoot in the Iron Mountains"
I think I got a "C" for composition and an "A" for originality.

 

[stickarts]

Thanks guys for the excellent posts. It's been a while since I've read the books. Here are some questions.

Illuvatar created the Valar, then together in song they created Middle Earth or the Universe?

Illuvatar had a plan(?) for mankind only known to himself. Was it ever explained?

The Valar were shown a vision by Illuvatar of what Middle Earth will look like. Those Valar that went to Middle Earth were responsible for making the vision a reality. Did I get it right?

Why did the Valar leave Middle Earth?

Were the Men of Numenor nearly wiped out for attempting to sail to the undying lands?

Is there any explanation of what happens to the Dwarf race during the fourth age?

I could go on but I'll stop here.

As far as the Dwarf question goes, I believe they dwindled because there were so few Dwarf Women and many of those chose not to marry.
I remember reading about some of your other questions but its been so long reading about that era that I would hate to give incorrect answers!

 

[Flying Crane]

quote=HG1

Thanks guys for the excellent posts. It's been a while since I've read the books. Here are some questions.

Illuvatar created the Valar, then together in song they created Middle Earth or the Universe?

Essentially, it was the Void, or kind of the Universe I guess, not clearly defined exactly, and thru song they created Middle Earth

Illuvatar had a plan(?) for mankind only known to himself. Was it ever explained?

Yup he had a plan, nope, it was never explained. Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and his Creation Myth, while unique to Middle Earth, also didn't directly conflict with Genesis too much. I think part of this is that it is just beyond the scope of any being to know the mind of God/Illuvatar. Think of Illuvatar as God, and the Valar as the highest ranking Angels, the Maiar as lower ranking Angels. The downfall of Melkor the first Dark Lord, who was the brightest, strongest, and most promising of the Valar, parallels the downfall of Lucifer. He became the Enemy Number One, and the rest of the Valar, along with the Elves and later the Men, fought him.

The Valar were shown a vision by Illuvatar of what Middle Earth will look like. Those Valar that went to Middle Earth were responsible for making the vision a reality. Did I get it right?

Don't remember exactly, but that's kind of it, perhaps. Or really, I think in their Music, Middle Earth was created without the Valar even knowing it. Then Illuvatar revealed Middle Earth to them, and they recognized their work within it.

Why did the Valar leave Middle Earth?

First, they entered Middle Earth, and then withdrew to the lands across the sea. I believe they did this to give room to the Elves, who were newly born as children of Illuvatar. Middle Earth was meant to be for the races of Elves, Humans, and the other races that came later. The Valar didn't have a hand in creating them. The Dwarves were created by the Vala named Aule, who was the Smith and Master Craftsman. Illuvatar almost made him destroy the dwarves, but then relented and allowed them to exist, but they were always separate from the elves and men.

Were the Men of Numenor nearly wiped out for attempting to sail to the undying lands?


Yup, some recognized the folly of this attempt, and fled back to the mainland before the island was destroyed.

Is there any explanation of what happens to the Dwarf race during the fourth age?

I don't recall any of this...

 

[exile]

Interesting point.

When Tolkien began writing the book, he really didn't know where it would go, nor even what its purpose was. It took a while before he even decided upon the ring as the central focus, and even longer to decide exactly what the ring was, and why it was so dangerous. But in the mean time, he just began writing to get things moving. The first half of the Fellowship of the Ring show this pretty clearly. The four hobbits, upon leaving Bag End, are just sort of on a random series of adventures that they stumble into, not exactly with any culminating purpose. While Mr. Tolkien tightened things up once he determined the purpose of the story and the journey (elements like the presence of the Nazgul in the Shire were added later), I think Bombadil was one of those sort of random encounters that they had in the mean time. It wasn't until they reached the village of Bree, and more so when they reached Rivendell, that the story began to go in a more focused direction. Still, Bombadil found a place in the story, and I think it was good that Mr. Tolkien didn't eliminate him.

That's an interesting angle on why the part before they all get to Rivendell has this... what? kind of picaresque quality, like a road movie. The dangers they face, like the Barrow-wight, seem to have no further role or bearing on events---the kind of thing you might conjure up if you wanted to have something menacing to keep readers engaged with the story, but not driving them to any big narrative target. Once they get to Rivendell, and the Council is held, though, everything become very tightly connected and you have a sense of a lot of economy in the narrative.

At one point I felt the Ents were kind of a reversion to that same episodic pace, but I realized after a while they they were essential both for the destruction of Orthanc and the final part of the victory at Helm's Deep. As the epic goes on, Tolkien's narrative style---not his descriptive prose, but his plot development---seems to get more and more lean and spartan, as though, like Sam and Frodo, his choices are becoming increasingly limited and everything is forcing him toward a single point.

 

[exile]

Middle Earth was meant to be for the races of Elves, Humans, and the other races that came later.

Everything else you've got here seems familiar, Michael, but I didn't think that Middle Earth was for the Elves, in particular---otherwise, why would they have had their own Undying realm, east of the Valinor but west of Middle Earth, to dwell in? And look at the Elves who go to Middle Earth at the beginning, the Exiles (distant spiritual kinsman to me, I suppose!), like Galadriel, who try to recreate Elvenholm in Lothlorien---their existence there is a long exercise in penitence for the Kinslaying in Elvenholm, and the hope of eventual forgiveness. I had thought from all this that Middle Earth was really created for the mortal races, humans and dwarves (though it's not clear that Dwarves are exactly mortal---aren't they supposed to reincarnate after a few generations?), and that the Elves who were there were there because of their transgressions or because they got restless in the Undying Realms and went east.

And now, while we're all together on this great thread and there's all this expertise here, will someone please, please, FINALLY explain to me why Celeborn stays behind when Galadrial returns over the seas to the Undying Lands. Please????

 

[Blotan Hunka]

If hes a leader and any of his people are left behind than he should stay and lead them.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

That's an interesting angle on why the part before they all get to Rivendell has this... what? kind of picaresque quality, like a road movie. The dangers they face, like the Barrow-wight, seem to have no further role or bearing on events---the kind of thing you might conjure up if you wanted to have something menacing to keep readers engaged with the story, but not driving them to any big narrative target. Once they get to Rivendell, and the Council is held, though, everything become very tightly connected and you have a sense of a lot of economy in the narrative.

But the way he ties the past history into the story. The barrow being the resting place of a king of the carin of the last prince of Cardolan and the swords that were forged to fight the ancient evil being recovered to fight the current evil. It all seems pretty well planned. I think Tolkien realized he had to pick up the pace after Rivendell or this story was going to need 6 books.

 

[exile]

If hes a leader and any of his people are left behind than he should stay and lead them.

It's more than that, Blotan---they were husband and wife, and things seemed to be quite good between them. And it seems, from what Celeborn says to Aragorn shortly before the end, that he knew well in advance that she would be returning over the seas once the Valar finally determined that---by her willingness to forego the One Ring when it was in her power after the Fellowship reached Lothlorien---she had earned an end to her exile.

Which, of course, is what we all long for...

 

[Blotan Hunka]

It's more than that, Blotan---they were husband and wife, and things seemed to be quite good between them. And it seems, from what Celeborn says to Aragorn shortly before the end, that he knew well in advance that she would be returning over the seas once the Valar finally determined that---by her willingness to forego the One Ring when it was in her power after the Fellowship reached Lothlorien---she had earned an end to her exile.

Which, of course, is what we all long for...

Still, hes a King and Im sure not all the Galadhirim (sp?) had left yet so it was his duty to stay. I also dont think he was finished with middle earth yet and as he had not come from the undying lands like his wife (or bore a ring) his desire to go there wasnt as strong.

Also remember they are immortal, Im sure their concepts of love and being together or apart for a long time would be far different from ours. A few hundred years apart for them would be like a "you go ahead Ill catch up with you in a bit" for us.

 

[exile]

If hes a leader and any of his people are left behind than he should stay and lead them.

Thinking some more about what you've said...

so you think it was kind of a conscious sacrifice on his/their part? She had to leave in a sense because her exile had been so long and she needed to return (and maybe also because when the Elven Ring of Power she had borne finally lost its power with the destruction of the One Ring, then she experienced something like what Frodo experienced when the One Ring was destroyed, a pain that couldn't be healed as long as she stayed in Middle Earth)? But that he decided to stay to lead the Elves who were not yet ready to take ship to Elvenholm?

Could be, could well be... I'd never thought of it from that angle...

 

[exile]

Still, hes a King and Im sure not all the Galadhirim (sp?) had left yet so it was his duty to stay. I also dont think he was finished with middle earth yet and as he had not come from the undying lands like his wife (or bore a ring) his desire to go there wasnt as strong.

Also remember they are immortal, Im sure their concepts of love and being together or apart for a long time would be far different from ours. A few hundred years apart for them would be a "you go ahead Ill catch up with you in a bit" for them.

You know something? I do believe you're right. And for some reason it makes me feel much much better about that part of it. Thanks much for the new perspective on it! :asian:

 

[Flying Crane]

Everything else you've got here seems familiar, Michael, but I didn't think that Middle Earth was for the Elves, in particular---otherwise, why would they have had their own Undying realm, east of the Valinor but west of Middle Earth, to dwell in? And look at the Elves who go to Middle Earth at the beginning, the Exiles (distant spiritual kinsman to me, I suppose!), like Galadriel, who try to recreate Elvenholm in Lothlorien---their existence there is a long exercise in penitence for the Kinslaying in Elvenholm, and the hope of eventual forgiveness. I had thought from all this that Middle Earth was really created for the mortal races, humans and dwarves (though it's not clear that Dwarves are exactly mortal---aren't they supposed to reincarnate after a few generations?), and that the Elves who were there were there because of their transgressions or because they got restless in the Undying Realms and went east.

And now, while we're all together on this great thread and there's all this expertise here, will someone please, please, FINALLY explain to me why Celeborn stays behind when Galadrial returns over the seas to the Undying Lands. Please????

Essentially, the Valar jumped the gun and started meddling where they weren't supposed to. They brought the Elves across the sea, but the elves should have stayed in middle earth. The elves then returned to Middle Earth to chase Morgoth and reclaim the Silmarils and all that stuff. But they never should have left Middle Earth in the first place, at least not until Men came into their own and were prepared to be the dominant race in the world. The only reason the Elves are in exile, so to speak, is because the saw Valinor and know its beauty, but have rejected it. They never should have seen Valinor in the first place. The Valar were trying to be nice and overly protective by bringing them to Valinor, but it shouldn't have been done.

As to your last question, I have no idea.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

You know something? I do believe you're right. And for some reason it makes me feel much much better about that part of it. Thanks much for the new perspective on it!

Yes. I also dont think it would have been a big deal for them as neither of them was going to die before they could meet again. If you think about it thats part of the human grasping most of us call love. I want to enjoy as much of my time (and worry about them) with my loved ones before any,or ultimately all of us die. The elves wouldnt have that drive.

 

[Flying Crane]

But the way he ties the past history into the story. The barrow being the resting place of a king of the carin of the last prince of Cardolan and the swords that were forged to fight the ancient evil being recovered to fight the current evil. It all seems pretty well planned. I think Tolkien realized he had to pick up the pace after Rivendell or this story was going to need 6 books.

That's true, but I think those points may have been worked into the story in a later draft. I think in the early draft, this also would have been one of those random encounters, altho I could be wrong. There is so much stuff in the later volumes published by Christopher Tolkien, it is quite confusing and not exciting reading, hard to remember all the detail.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Of course, Celeborn WAS sort of an emasculated "lesser light" to his wife. If all you ever read was the trillogy you may be hard pressed to even remember him..."CeleWHO?".

 

[Blotan Hunka]

That's true, but I think those points may have been worked into the story in a later draft. I think in the early draft, this also would have been one of those random encounters, altho I could be wrong. There is so much stuff in the later volumes published by Christopher Tolkien, it is quite confusing and not exciting reading, hard to remember all the detail.

You are probably right. I think he probably had an outline of what he wanted to accomplish and like any endeavor, theres a point where you pick up steam and drive on through a project until you reach the spot where you see the finishline, and round that turn heading for home.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I've read them many times, but always wind up with a kind of melancholy feeling afterwards that sometimes lasts for days... wonder if this happens to anyone else....

YES! I cant put it down then am a little sad that its over.