any lord of the rings fans?

[jks9199]

Y'know...

They were movies. I thought that they were pretty well done, all things considered. (Though I, for one, wanted to see Tom Bombadil!)

But there was no way they were going to live up to the MiddleEarth of my imagination, reading, and dreams. 'Cause Peter Jackson, Ian McKellan, et al just ain't in my head! What they saw when they read them wasn't the same as what I saw.

But the trilogy was a reasonable interpretation, acceptably faithful to the books. (The DVD extended versions are more faithful. I don't see how they could trim so much of the stay in Lothlorien from the theatrical release...)

I never expect a movie to hew directly to the book, with notable exceptions like The Princess Bride or 2001: A Space Oddysey where the screenwriter and the novelist are one and the same. And even then -- there were differences! Heinlein's books have been butchered everytime someone turned them into films. I can't recall who said it -- but I recall one novelist making a comment to the effect that having a book made into a movie was akin to watching a child be murdered in front of you.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Oh yeah, thats all granted. Just a little venting is all.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I also have an issue with the treatment of Denethor. He was changed from a wise man, who was burdened, flawed and deluded by Sauron, but still more of a pathetic (as in you had a bit of understanding and sympathy for him) character than despised. The move turned him into a pure villain.

And Gandalfs almost defeat to the witch king, the breaking staff, the panicked look...where did that come from?

Yeah, I was disappointed with the portrayal of Denethor too. The situation with Gandalf and the Witch King. I don't know. Maybe they were trying to present the whole siege situation as essentially hopeless. To the point that even Gandalf was overwhelmed. The thing is , earlier in the same film they had established a wizard's staff breaking as a symbol of the breaking of his power (Saruman at Orthanc). Continuity problems again.

But the trilogy was a reasonable interpretation, acceptably faithful to the books. (The DVD extended versions are more faithful. I don't see how they could trim so much of the stay in Lothlorien from the theatrical release...)

I can accept the trimming of certain scenes and the axeing of other all together. What I found a little annoying was the fact that early on everyone seemed to know everything about every thing (like the Ring and Aragorn) even though these events took place over the course of 3000 years. But in the second and third movies people seem unaware of who Aragorn is (perhaps Boromir was just special).

Then there is the time scale throughout the course of the book and the film. The quest to destroy the Ring took about a year, with significant stops at Rivendell and Lothlorien. These are implied in the films but so much of what went on is not even hinted at, especially in Lothlorien.

Oh yeah, thats all granted. Just a little venting is all.

Most assuredly just venting. I have enjoyed the films many times now, but sometimes you just have to shout and gnash your teeth. And speaking of venting - Elves at Helms Deep!!!!! Aargh!!!

 

[Sukerkin]

I do have to admit that of all the things that were 'changed' for the movies the thing that breaks the suspension of disbelief the most is that confrontation between the Witch King of Angmar and Gandalf within the walls of the White City.

Even if you don't know anything about who Gandalf really is, I would imagine that scene would make no sense to you, given that you've already seen some of the extent of his power - kicking a Balrog's butt is no mean feat .

If you do know anything about the backstory of LOTR then seeing the Witchking breaking Gandalfs staff gives rise to a severe case of "Yeah, right!".

However, I am mightily irked also by the twisting of Faramir and Denthor into being such lesser men than they are in the story 'proper'.

I know that some of the dialogue hints at what has happened to Denethor but you'd really have to be a well read LOTR 'fan' to catch it - a single short scene showing him using a Palantir would've been enough to show the viewer that he wasn't just a malicious lunatic.

As for Faramir, the man widely regarded as being second only to Aragorn in the nobility of his Numenorian blood and the purity of his spirit ...

I have to confess that I find it hard to moan about the elaboration of the role of Arwen in the films tho', I know it's shallow of me but Liv Tyler as an Elf makes me weak at the knees :lol:. Still, I would've loved to have seen the Ford scene as it appears in my imagination, with Glorfindel standing on the shore holding back the Nazgul by his sheer prescence and their rememberance of just how powerful he was.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I can accept the trimming of certain scenes and the axeing of other all together. What I found a little annoying was the fact that early on everyone seemed to know everything about every thing (like the Ring and Aragorn) even though these events took place over the course of 3000 years. But in the second and third movies people seem unaware of who Aragorn is (perhaps Boromir was just special).

I also have no problems with cutting scenes to reach time constraints and that can require a little tinkering with the story to make it all fit. I understand that. What I take issue with is the changing of characters "character"...Sam and Frodo being broken up by Gollum, Sam leaving Frodo, Faramirs charcater tampering, Denethor, Aragorn (the whole battle with the wolf riders/falling off the cliff/being saved by his horse crap...why leave out the Barrow downs and add in that non-existant crap?), Gandalf etc. The only reason to alter the basic character of these personas can only be hubris on the part of the writers or they were trying to make some sort of personal statement about human character. Save me your take on human behavior when you are making a movie based on a book. Stick to the authors concept, theres a reason people loved the book "as is".

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I have to confess that I find it hard to moan about the elaboration of the role of Arwen in the films tho', I know it's shallow of me but Liv Tyler as an Elf makes me weak at the knees :lol:. Still, I would've loved to have seen the Ford scene as it appears in my imagination, with Glorfindel standing on the shore holding back the Nazgul by his sheer prescence and their rememberance of just how powerful he was.

Yeah, Arwen wasnt as huge of a problem as I expected her to be. The change from mighty elf warrior to wilting elf-maid having daddy issues was needless IMO. And that whole amulet..Arwens fate is tied to the ring bit. That was needless and confusing.

 

[Flying Crane]

In his later life JRR started to completely reorganise the mythos and history of Middle-earth. He discussed some of these changes in notes and letters. Included was some information about the blue wizards who went into the east. Here is a little something culled mercilessly from the Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp

One of the five Wizards who came to the northwest of Middle-earth in the Third Age; he journeyed into the east with Pallando, and never returned to the western lands.
Alatar was one of the original three2 Wizards selected by the Valar for the journey from Valinor to Middle-earth (the other two being Curumo and Olórin - Saruman and Gandalf).
Alatar and Pallando arrived in Middle-earth dressed in sea-blue. For this reason, they were together given the name Ithryn Luin, the Blue Wizards. With Saruman, they journeyed into the far east of Middle-earth, but while Saruman returned to the west, Alatar and Pallando did not. Of their fate, we know almost nothing3.


Notes 1The name Alatar can be interpreted (somewhat awkwardly) as 'after-comer'. If this is correct, it must be a reference to his being selected as the second Wizard, after Curumo (Saruman). It might equally have been given to him after his arrival in Middle-earth (he arrived after Saruman), but Tolkien specifically states that neither Alatar nor Pallando had a name in the known regions of Middle-earth - in this case, Alatar must be viewed not so much as a name, but rather as a simple description.
A curious, and probably spurious, alternative meaning is álat ar, 'noble giant'.

2The Valar originally intended to send just three Maiar as emissaries to Middle-earth. Aiwendil (Radagast) was added to this number by Yavanna, and Pallando was taken by Alatar 'as a friend'.

3Tolkien tells us 'What success they [Alatar and Pallando] had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were the founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No. 211).


Later on JRR suggested that their mission was similar to Gandalf's and that they may have achieved similar success. But this also involved name changes and such things.

Yes, some of this is familiar, as I've waded about halfway thru the later volumes published by Christopher Tolkien.

Perhaps, if some modern authors could get access to all notes in existance about these characters, including any that might not have been published yet by Christopher, it would give them enough of a rough background and a base to work from, and maybe they could do justice to them. It's probably never going to happen, but it's a thought.

On another note, JRR actually began writing a sequel to TLOR, but didn't get very far, maybe 30 pages or so. I think it was set in the late years of Aragorn's rule, I believe as he was ageing. The rough draft of this work is contained in one of the later volumes published by Christopher, I think the title of the volume is "Peoples of Middle-Earth," or something like that. It's probably volume 12 or so. I haven't read it yet, but it's interesting to know that there is more out there...

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Yes, some of this is familiar, as I've waded about halfway thru the later volumes published by Christopher Tolkien.

Perhaps, if some modern authors could get access to all notes in existance about these characters, including any that might not have been published yet by Christopher, it would give them enough of a rough background and a base to work from, and maybe they could do justice to them. It's probably never going to happen, but it's a thought.

On another note, JRR actually began writing a sequel to TLOR, but didn't get very far, maybe 30 pages or so. I think it was set in the late years of Aragorn's rule, I believe as he was ageing. The rough draft of this work is contained in one of the later volumes published by Christopher, I think the title of the volume is "Peoples of Middle-Earth," or something like that. It's probably volume 12 or so. I haven't read it yet, but it's interesting to know that there is more out there...

You can find bits of it in the appendix of some issues of LOTR. Talks about Aragorns death and Arwen leaving for the abandoned realm of Lothlorien to await death. Which, even though she would age and die, was supposed to have been at a far slower pace than a norman human. Although elves were stated to be able to die of grief so maybe thats what he implied.

 

[Flying Crane]

You can find bits of it in the appendix of some issues of LOTR. Talks about Aragorns death and Arwen leaving for the abandoned realm of Lothlorien to await death. Which, even though she would age and die, was supposed to have been at a far slower pace than a norman human. Although elves were stated to be able to die of grief so maybe thats what he implied.

Yes, I recall what you are referring to, but this is not what the new story was. I think the Appendix was written at the same time the LOR was written, and was simply meant to sort of round out the end of the story and tell a little more of what happens later.

The new story I am referring to was written in the style of a brand new novel, with new characters and new villians and whatnot. It was written quite a bit later than the LOR. I think there is a reference to one character, he was the young child who befriends Pippin at Minas Tirith, while Pippin was stationed there in service to Denethor. This child was the son of one of the city soldiers, but I don't remember their names. At any rate, I believe in the new story, this child is an old man. It had dialog and everything, it just didn't go very far before JRR stopped working on it.

Too bad he never finished it.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Yes, I recall what you are referring to, but this is not what the new story was. I think the Appendix was written at the same time the LOR was written, and was simply meant to sort of round out the end of the story and tell a little more of what happens later.

The new story I am referring to was written in the style of a brand new novel, with new characters and new villians and whatnot. It was written quite a bit later than the LOR. I think there is a reference to one character, he was the young child who befriends Pippin at Minas Tirith, while Pippin was stationed there in service to Denethor. This child was the son of one of the city soldiers, but I don't remember their names. At any rate, I believe in the new story, this child is an old man. It had dialog and everything, it just didn't go very far before JRR stopped working on it.

Too bad he never finished it.

Would have been nice. I dont think anybody but JRRT could pick it up now and do it justice though.

 

[Flying Crane]

Would have been nice. I dont think anybody but JRRT could pick it up now and do it justice though.

oh, most definitely. It was very much in it's beginning stages. I don't know what it's like to write something like this, but it seems to me that even if he had a fully fleshed outline set up, it would be tough for any other author to pick it up and get even close to what JRR had in mind. I think it's pretty difficult to re-create another author's creative intentions and stuff. Keep in mind, it took some 15-20 years or so for him to write the LOR. He just worked very slowly, took a long time to figure out what the story was even about, who the characters would be, etc. His publisher kept telling him that his fans wanted a sequel to The Hobbit, so he started working on it, thinking it would be quite short, but it just kept growing and it took a long long time. Compare that to modern authors who often bang out a new novel every few months or so. It's just a very different approach. Tolkien would write a bunch, then change his mind and re-write it, and then do that several more times. Very slow process. I suspect it would have been the same with the new work, so who knows what he even had in mind?

 

[Steel Tiger]

On another note, JRR actually began writing a sequel to TLOR, but didn't get very far, maybe 30 pages or so. I think it was set in the late years of Aragorn's rule, I believe as he was ageing. The rough draft of this work is contained in one of the later volumes published by Christopher, I think the title of the volume is "Peoples of Middle-Earth," or something like that. It's probably volume 12 or so. I haven't read it yet, but it's interesting to know that there is more out there...

I believe he was considering the rise of some new dark threat during the reign of Eldarion. From what I understand it was rather like what had already come and that is why he abandoned it. Of course, he might have gone back to the idea with something new, but the problem was he was a perfectionist of the first order and couldn't help tinkering and refining everything.

By the way "Peoples of Middle-earth" (volume 12) is a very good read with lots of interestinginformation on the different races of Middle-earth.

 

[zDom]

I always wanted to do a book on the Blue Wizards but... well, that's a lot of work only to be shot down by the JRRT Estate, not to mention the criticism I'm sure I would face by OTHER JRRT fans.

(How many JRRT wanna-be's does it take to screw in a lightbulb? A million: 1 to install the lightbulb and 999,999 to say they could have done it better...)

But at least I would stick to "the facts" as we know them instead of taking HUGE liberties with the story as Jackson did.

I agree that Jackson made all sorts of changes that simply weren't needed and definately were NOT improvement's on JRRT's story.

 

[Flying Crane]

I believe he was considering the rise of some new dark threat during the reign of Eldarion. From what I understand it was rather like what had already come and that is why he abandoned it. Of course, he might have gone back to the idea with something new, but the problem was he was a perfectionist of the first order and couldn't help tinkering and refining everything.

I think you've hit it on the mark.

By the way "Peoples of Middle-earth" (volume 12) is a very good read with lots of interestinginformation on the different races of Middle-earth.

I can't believe I actually got the title and volume number correct.

I've been slowly getting thru the volumes, but I stalled out a few years ago, around volume 8 or something. Much if it is pretty tedious to slog thru. Maybe I'll skip ahead to volume 12, if its more interesting reading...

 

[Bigshadow]

Huge fan of the books and movies (except that I HATED the love story inserted into the movies). Allways like Gandalf the best, ever since I first read the Hobbit way back when.

I agree! I thought the love story was a waste of time.

 

[Kreth]

Hollywood being what is it, I'm surprised the studio didn't demand an affair between Arwen and Legolas. You know, to provide more drama...

 

[Aikikitty]

Ack! How did I not see this thread until now?!?

I LOVE Lord of the Rings--the books and the movies. From both the books and the movies, my favorite characters have always been Frodo, Sam, and Legolas. But basically I like all the good guys/girls.

Robyn