Anti-Grappling Techniques...

[Kababayan]

Regarding age, as many have asked, I'm 42. Not old by any means. I probably should have left the "at my age" comment out. The main reason that I don't train in bjj is that
I have a newborn daughter at home and don't want to be gone at night a few days a week. (The closest bjj school is about 40 min away.) Plus I never really had the passion for it like the stand up arts. When I would train I would get injured after a few sessions and have to take a break. That would mean that I couldn't train in my other arts. Everyone says that there is a break-in period that your body has to go through in bjj and once I go through it the injuries won't happen as frequently.

 

[hoshin1600]

When you are 80, you may not be able to box 15 rounds, or wrestle 15 rounds, you can still play ground game. The ground game does not involve

- punch to the head,
- land on the body.

Since you can tap out whenever you want to, I just don't see the ground game can have any age limitation. Many BJJ schools skip the stand up game and directly go to the ground game.

While age is not the constraint factor, your health and fitness at whatever age you are is a restriction. It's getting difficult for me to kneel down. I can't sit in Japanese Seiza anymore. The pain in my knees is just too much. So yes as we age it gets harder to do ground work for some of us.

 

[drop bear]

See this is what is interesting about systems like Mc Map in that they have all these systems and ideas to choose from but you need to prune the hell out of it to get mabye a few basic principles as a sort of get out of jail card.

So if it were me and just to train grappling as a supplemental to striking. It would be.

Escape mount.
Escape side control.
Escape scarf hold.
Escape knee ride.

From there you go into turtle. learn sit outs and stand ups.

You would need how to do mount, side control etc.

That should see you through in an absolute bare bones system.

 

[Charlemagne]

Thank you all for your great responses. I was originally asking about what to do during the ground-fight that would be dirty and effective...

Any dirty trick you could use can be used against you as well. Try biting someone while they are choking you and you just have them license to gouge your eyes out and there won't be a thing you can do to stop it.

In addition, effectiveness is highly suspect. As you can see in that vid I posted, it's not easy to pull that stuff off against someone who is good on the ground.

Sent from mTalk

 

[Andrew Green]

- When a triangle choke was attempted: Before the choke was cinched in the person in the choke bit the inner thigh and then hammered the groin of the grappler and then stood up.

This is the sort of technique that gets created by someone that doesn't know what they are doing on the ground. If you are in a decent triangle choke you aren't biting anything. But you are going to go unconscious without a proper defence, and if the last thing you do before going unconscious is try to bite a chunk out of the persons leg I imagine that will make waking up after less pleasant.

Not only that... you are on top. If you are fighting someone that knows how to wrestle and you don't, you'll be on the bottom

- Off of a double leg (Paul Vunak's Kina Mutay): The person being taken down wraps the grappler in a guard, holds the grappler's head tight, and bites into the grappler's cheek. When the grappler pushes back, you release and stand up.

And at that point you've seriously escalated the situation. You might get out with a mouth full of cheek and make your escape, or you might wake up in the hospital with no teeth as they aren't going to take kindly to escalating the fight that far.

- Off a side control: Reach in between the legs of the person on top and grab and squeeze the groin to get your opponents hips up, either your opponent lets go or you have a chance to get your legs under and pull to your guard.

More likely that arm get pinned and you get smashed for attempting to grab their junk...

- If you are in a person's guard: Sit back, hammer or punch your opponent's groin. Stand up and get away. (Krav move)

Again, this is not going to have that effect.


The problem with all this anti-grappling stuff is it relies on you being in a grappling situation with someone that also doesn't have any skill in it. In which case fundamental grappling techniques and tactics will serve you much better anyways. If you don't know what you are doing and are facing someone who has a high level of skill they will be able to do all of that stuff to you, and you will end up pinned and unable to do much of anything.

So "anti-grappling" is really just dirty tricks to use on other non-grapplers that will escalate a fight to pretty serious levels. Once you take a bite out of someone or try to crush their testicles... that fight is ending in the emergency room for someone, probably both of you.

So you can train to bite, claw, eye gouge and make wine out of testicles. Or, learn some actual grappling, which will allow you to control things rather then simply escalate them and do so with a much greater likelihood of success.

Is there situations that might warrant that sort of thing? Sure, very extreme ones that most of us will never face, but they exist. But you'll amplify their chances of success greatly by stacking them on top of some solid fundamentals.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Regarding age, as many have asked, I'm 42. Not old by any means. I probably should have left the "at my age" comment out. The main reason that I don't train in bjj is that
I have a newborn daughter at home and don't want to be gone at night a few days a week. (The closest bjj school is about 40 min away.) Plus I never really had the passion for it like the stand up arts. When I would train I would get injured after a few sessions and have to take a break. That would mean that I couldn't train in my other arts. Everyone says that there is a break-in period that your body has to go through in bjj and once I go through it the injuries won't happen as frequently.

Yeah, 42 is definitely not too old for grappling. I'm about to turn 53 and I train BJJ typically 4 days per week.

If you were getting injured every few sessions on a consistent basis, that probably indicates a problem either with the way you or your training partners roll. Relax, focus on learning not winning, tap early and often.

I do understand not wanting to take extra time away from your family to make a long commute for classes that don't personally excite you. If you can find any competent open minded grapplers closer to you, perhaps you could trade some striking lessons in exchange for lessons in basic defense and escape from the ground. That way you wouldn't be spending excess time on stuff you don't care about, like fancy guards and advanced submissions. Alternately, you could realize that your odds of being mugged by an expert in BJJ, Sombo, Judo, or Catch Wrestling are pretty darn small, so it's probably fine if you don't have the skills to defeat someone like that on the ground.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

BTW - I haven't seen much of Paul Vunak's Kino Mutai material, but I have noticed one thing that seems to be missed by both detractors and supporters. When he shows biting techniques against grappling, he first neutralizes the immediate threat, then bites, then uses the reaction to the bite to set up an escape. He doesn't start biting until he has some control of the situation. Grappling fundamentals are what gives him that initial control.

 

[Andrew Green]

Alternately, you could realize that your odds of being mugged by an expert in BJJ, Sombo, Judo, or Catch Wrestling are pretty darn small, so it's probably fine if you don't have the skills to defeat someone like that on the ground.

pfft... your art is not complete unless I can defeat anyone of any style on "The Streetz", now buy my 5 dvd set on how to defend yourself in a street a track from a Roman centurion in full gear.

 

[Charlemagne]

If you are fighting someone that knows how to wrestle and you don't, you'll be on the bottom

Exactly right.

If you are against someone who knows what they are doing and you don't, you won't have to worry about getting triangled. They'll be in full mount pounding your head in, or in back mount choking you unconscious.


I can understand some of these ideas as a desperation move, because hey, if you are in the crap, and have nothing to lose, why not? But, if they represent your plan... well, let's just say, it's not a good plan.

 

[JR 137]

You guys have obviously not seen this (I'm sure BJJers are fighting to keep it out of the mainstream for obvious reasons)...

 

[Kababayan]

You need to prune the hell out of it to get mabye a few basic principles as a sort of get out of jail card.

So if it were me and just to train grappling as a supplemental to striking. It would be.

Escape mount.
Escape side control.
Escape scarf hold.
Escape knee ride.

From there you go into turtle. learn sit outs and stand ups.

You would need how to do mount, side control etc.

That should see you through in an absolute bare bones system.

Thank you very much for this. This is very helpful.

 

[Kababayan]

Relax, focus on learning not winning, tap early and often.

I do understand not wanting to take extra time away from your family to make a long commute for classes that don't personally excite you. If you can find any competent open minded grapplers closer to you, perhaps you could trade some striking lessons in exchange for lessons in basic defense and escape from the ground. That way you wouldn't be spending excess time on stuff you don't care about, like fancy guards and advanced submissions. Alternately, you could realize that your odds of being mugged by an expert in BJJ, Sombo, Judo, or Catch Wrestling are pretty darn small, so it's probably fine if you don't have the skills to defeat someone like that on the ground.

Thank you. Great advice.

 

[Kababayan]

Thank you for all that have replied. I really appreciate your time and advice.

 

[drop bear]

Thank you for all that have replied. I really appreciate your time and advice.

The point with eyegouges and biting and head stomping is you really dont need expert advice to learn it.

There is no technique that makes your eyegouge that much more effective.

There is technique to striking,grappling and ground work. And good striking grappling and ground work is the key to good biting,eyegouging and head stomp.

So when you have limited resources and time. Don't pay to learn eyegouging. You could have come up with that for nothing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is no technique that makes your eyegouge that much more effective.

I find the following move is very effective in fighting.

You swing your right arm horizontally with your fingers open and loose "across" your opponent's eyes. You have 5 fingers and your opponent has 2 eyes. The chance that one of your finger can slide across one of your opponent's eyes are very high.

 

[drop bear]

I find the following move is very effective in fighting.

You swing your right arm horizontally with your fingers open and loose "across" your opponent's eyes. You have 5 fingers and your opponent has 2 eyes. The chance that one of your finger can slide across one of your opponent's eyes are very high.

Yeah eye gouges work but I am not going to a seminar and paying you for that.If I wanted to have a killer eyegouge. I will do a crap ton of boxing and then just do that five finger shot because my striking is up to speed.

 

[Charlemagne]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that eye gouges, etc. cannot work. The issue is that they work both ways. In other words, the person with good grappling skills can dominate you on the ground in such a way that you are not going to be able to use such things effectively. Or, if you do manage to pull one of those things off, and it is not the game changer that you think it is going to be, now you have really pissed the guy off, and he can do the same to you, and probably do it more effectively as he can control you in such a way that prevents you from countering.

There just isn't any substitute for knowing what you are doing. You don't have to be a ground-master, but you do need some basics and you need to both drill and spar those basics on regular basis in order to be able to pull them off. This is going to sound odd, but this is where a more "sport" mentality can be effective. In a sport BJJ setting for example, you don't have all day to wait things out, you need to work to improve your position right away (pretty much). This is an area where I disagree with the mentality that some in the GJJ camp have, of just hanging out in bad positions and not working to get out of them right away. In a real world fight, you may need to end things rapidly, so that mind set of moving NOW rather than waiting can be a good thing.

Bottom line, if you want to be able to handle yourself on the ground, train that.

 

[CB Jones]

Bas Rutten explained it perfectly.

Never use dirty tricks when your opponent has the advatage in position unless you just want the guy to mess you up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Never use dirty tricks when your opponent has the advatage in position unless you just want the guy to mess you up.

There is difference between "sport" and "fight for life". The sport has rules. The fight doesn't.

If it's "sport", using dirty trick can end with fist (or knife) fight.

If your opponent tries to kill you, it doesn't matter whether you use dirty trick on him or not. If dirty trick is your last thing that you can do before getting killed, you should use it so you won't regret in your coffin.

At the end of the 4 years university, students from the Taiwan Central Police University will need to compete in a Chinese wrestling mixed with Judo tournament in order to get their black belt before they graduate. A Chinese wrestling student bite on a judo student during a ground control. Both the Chinese wrestling coach and the Judo coach had to explain what had happened in front of the head of that university.

A: Are we training our police officers to fight against criminal on the street?
B: Yes!
A: When a criminal gets hold on one of our police officer on the ground, should our police officer fight back with everything he can (include biting), or should that police officer taps on the leg and hope the criminal will let him go?

The Chinese wrestling coach won that case.

 

[CB Jones]

There is difference between "sport" and "fight for life". The sport has rules. The fight doesn't.

If it's "sport", using dirty trick can end with fist (or knife) fight.

If your opponent tries to kill you, it doesn't matter whether you use dirty trick on him or not. If dirty trick is your last thing that you can do before getting killed, you should use it so you won't regret in your coffin.

I agree if you think the guy is trying to kill you but if it is a normal "street fight" and dirty trick could convince the person with the advantage to do more damage than he originally intended.