Another school shooting... damn it....

[exile]

Paul---this is a great post, full of insight, giving me much to chew on. You are quite right: empathy is the issue, and my conception of autism for a long time has been based on certain research that I've read that autistic children lack what is sometimes called a `theory of mind'---meaning that they do not attribute to other people the capacity for mental states that they themselves experience firsthand; I've read some arguments somewhere or other that the way in which clinically autistic children acquire lexical items reflects in a systematic way this failure to attribute cognitive states parallel to their own to others. And such a failure would automatically entail a failure of empathy with others (if they have no cognitive/affective states comparable to yours, what is there for you to empathize with?) Thanks very much for the reference on autism---it's something I'm interested in in a general way for a variety of reasons.

I especially like the point you make when you say that

We can value an emphasis on social issues that would curb maladaptive behavior patterns in the first place. Perhaps making sure that our schools are educating our children with a gestalt approach (the whole is greater then the sum of its parts), and that families and parents aren't stretched to the max working multiple jobs, leaving children to raise themselves. Perhaps ensuring that adults, particularly in depressed socioeconomic area's where violence tends to be seen as the only solution to have needs met, have access to therapy where maladaptive patterns can be identified and helped while the person is still willing to be helped, and before something drastic occurs. Perhaps the medical and insurance community demphasizing the 15 minute doctor visit followed by a prescription of anti-depressants in favor of more therapeutic, holistic solutions where problems can be identified and solved would be a good move.

I agree heartily with every single sentence in this paragraph.

So far as anticipating that someone is going to do something radically violent, I'm not sure how easy that ever is in practice. So you note that

Because hindsight is 20/20, there is almost always recognizable patterns that are individualized, but evident that someone is preparing to do something violent. This is obvious simply from reading news accounts of these stories, such as this one from the Christian Science Monitor on the Amish school shooting:

"On Monday, however, he left suicide notes for his family, then drove his pickup truck to a school he no doubt passed many times on late-night milk routes. He brought to the school a semi-automatic pistol, hundreds of rounds of ammunition, a 12-gauge shotgun, and a rifle - along with restraints, lumber to block the doors, and a change of clothing.
In a scene that seemed to echo the Bailey shooting, the gunman ordered boys and school aides out, then bound 10 girls ages 6 to 13. He called his wife on his cellphone."

"Law-enforcement officials, working to unearth Roberts's motive, said Tuesday that sexual assault seemed the most likely one. In a suicide note, they said, Roberts recalled an incident 20 years ago when he, a pre-teen at the time, molested younger children. The note indicated he had been haunted by dreams about molesting young girls, police said."

You can't convince me that no one could notice this kind of preparation. As you can see, there are always warning signs that if the guys wife, people he delivered too or worked with, or what have you, had responded to sooner, the tragedy may have been prevented.

But was it clear that anyone was actually aware that this guy had a history of molesting young children (or fantasizing actively about it, which is another possibility consistent with his note and which should raise pretty much the same red flags as an actual episode)? And did anyone actually notice what kind of stuff he was up to in the time frame just before the shooting? That's where things get tricky. I agree, a lot of times people close to someone with severe mental/emotional disorders are in long-term denial about the existence of a problem. But isn't it also true that many people with severe psychopathologies are very good at disguising their disorders and covering their tracks? He may have concealed his arsenal from his family, or at least transfered into his truck without anyone knowing about it, and so on.

So...solutions? I have named a few, but the issue is far deeper then what I could cover in an Internet discussion, I think. And of course, there are unanswered questions as well. I think that if all of us could take responsibility for ourselves and our environment, and work towards a more holistic and free society, then that would be a start.

Paul

This is about as close to the heart of the matter as anything I've ever read on violence as a social problem. Again, great post.

 

[MJS]

I know what you're saying, but the overwhelming stumbling block is identification of the dangerous cases before the fact. This guy who shot all those children in the Amish school... I don't think, from any of the news accounts I've read, that he had given any signs to anyone else that he was deranged, certainly not to the degree he really was. There's no mental Geiger counter you can turn on to tell you when you're in the presence of lethal derangement. Put the sex criminals, the paedophiles and those cases in oubliettes and melt the keys down, sure, but with this guy Roberts... no clues. What do you do?

I heard that he had something tramatic happen to him in the past and I believe recently as well, which led him to do this. I hear you though...it is hard to pinpoint every single case. I did find this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15113706/

Now, I don't know if he was showing any signs since then, but if he was....

Mike

 

[exile]

I heard that he had something tramatic happen to him in the past and I believe recently as well, which led him to do this. I hear you though...it is hard to pinpoint every single case. I did find this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15113706/

Now, I don't know if he was showing any signs since then, but if he was....

Mike

Mike---thanks for the link---yes, it seems to be difficult to say what's going on in this case---new stuff keeps emerging. I'm not getting a clear story from the new coverage about who, if anyone, noticed strange behavior on this guy's part and just when they did notice it (assuming that anyone did).

Then you have the really tough question: what do you do about it once you notice that something is amiss? Presumably you talk to the person and try to get them to seek help if you think they're troubled; but at what point is it reasonable to decide that you may be looking at not just a depressed or troubled spouse/friend/associate, but a genuine catastrophe in the making? Who do you talk to then? What happens if you're wrong...? Does anyone have a good take on any of this?