Animated Dojo Discussion

[silatman]

While exploring the options of a particular move last night at training I noticed that two of my partners were always coming up with a submission to break for a finish.
My solution to this move was to shoot, mount, then punch to the face. I reasoned that breaking a limb unless it was a life or death situation was not a good option and that maybe they should look for a KO instead.
At this point the class stopped and everyone got into a debate about breaking limbs in an "average" street fight. By average I mean 1 on 1 no weapons or mates to worry about just a straight forward fight over something like a split beer or a carpark ding. We all agreed that we would only fight if the other person instigated the first blow but this is where we parted philosophys.
I would hope that I would be able to think rationally enough to be able to control the aggresion to a point where I could stop the guy without breaking a limb but most of the other guys think that if the fight is on you dont know what the capabillities are of your opponent and therefore need to go in all guns blazing and stop any action of his using the best technique availible, that is break the limb, you cant punch with a broken arm, cant kick with a broken leg.
I can see there point but I worry about the legalities of the decision to break a limb when it was for all intents and purposes a "fair fight" the law says that you can use appropriate force but that is the most subjective wording you could use.
Whats your opinion break first or escallate your techniques gradually

 

[MJS]

IMO, what we do, should be determined by what the other person is doing. It certainly is easy to 'lose control' during the heat of the battle, but it is important to keep a level head. We're not mind readers, so we don't know what the person is capable of until the fight is already underway. It is important though to escalate our force accordingly. We need to think about how our actions are going to look to others, such as bystanders, the Police and the court. We already have a slight advantage over the average person with our training. If this person is unarmed, how is it going to look if we break his arm or leg? Were there no other methods we could have used to de-escalate the situation?

Mike

 

[ppko]

You never know what the other person is going to do, with that said if you always make it look like an accident, ie he/she was to close I just pushed them away (if they are are knocked out) and the witnesses saw it the way you discribed it, or he threw a punch I moved out of the way he fell to the ground and I slipped and fell on top of him. Those are perfect examples, my thoughts are thhis in the world we live in today if you come out alive than you are doing alright. Like the saying goes its better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Whats your opinion break first or escallate your techniques gradually

So let me get this straight. In a life or death situation (as that's the only one worth fighting for in the first place) you have the time and skill to worry about how badly the other guy gets hurt? I think that once the fight has begun (all attempts to de-escalate have failed at this point) you have to assume that the other person is (1) capable of casuing you serious harm, (2) means to cause you serious harm, and (3) is not worried if they cause you serious harm. That being said if you're "laying off the power" in your techniques trying not to hurt the other person you're giving them more oppurtunites to hurt you. I say take what option presents itself first so that you come out alive and well enough to go home to your family. Worry about the legalities after your "fat is out of the fire." Don't "stay in the oven searching the area for a cool spot." My original instructor was KILLED doing just what you mentioned. Some guys were trying to steal his car, he proceeded to continually knock them down trying NOT to hurt them. After one guy had had enough of the ground he got up pulled his gun and killed my instructor. Had my instructor been trying to hurt these guys while they hadn't pulled the gun I don't believe they would have had the time to pull the weapon. He could have broken things, KO'd them or killed them given his skill level and how the "fight" was going. Long story short take a good HARD look at the comment in your sig. You know the one about being judged by 12 instead of carried by 6? Really spend sometime thinking about that and understand what you may have to do to ensure that you get the chance to be judged instead of carried. When you think about it I'm pretty sure that you won't have time to continually 'escalate the level of force as necessary.' The only way you can do that is when you're in TOTAL CONTROL of the fight due to a VAST DISPARITY in skill level. That's about the time you're question shouldn't be about level of force but about why you're fighting and victimizing this person in the first place. Just make sure that they don't have gun when you back off.

Respectfully,
James

P.S. -- Don't mean to be jerk if that's how that reads but this topic HITS HOME with me. I lost my instructor, his two sons, and his daughter in several incidents that can be summed up as "they held back, the other person got a second chance and used it to kill them" from the stories the witnesses relayed to me. Then I ask why didn't the witnesses help, but I know the answer to that question already.

 

[chinto01]

I believe in the heat of combat things may happen that you did not intend to. The physical conditioning of people varies. What breaks on persons arm may or may not break anothers. That being said I think it becomes a question of what becomes to much force after the initial engagement. If the person is down and you have time to get away, to follow up with another technique is in my opinion wrong. On the other hand if the person keeps engaging you even after you must do what you need to get out of the situation.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[MJS]

So let me get this straight. In a life or death situation (as that's the only one worth fighting for in the first place) you have the time and skill to worry about how badly the other guy gets hurt? I think that once the fight has begun (all attempts to de-escalate have failed at this point) you have to assume that the other person is (1) capable of casuing you serious harm, (2) means to cause you serious harm, and (3) is not worried if they cause you serious harm. That being said if you're "laying off the power" in your techniques trying not to hurt the other person you're giving them more oppurtunites to hurt you. I say take what option presents itself first so that you come out alive and well enough to go home to your family. Worry about the legalities after your "fat is out of the fire." Don't "stay in the oven searching the area for a cool spot." My original instructor was KILLED doing just what you mentioned. Some guys were trying to steal his car, he proceeded to continually knock them down trying NOT to hurt them. After one guy had had enough of the ground he got up pulled his gun and killed my instructor. Had my instructor been trying to hurt these guys while they hadn't pulled the gun I don't believe they would have had the time to pull the weapon. He could have broken things, KO'd them or killed them given his skill level and how the "fight" was going. Long story short take a good HARD look at the comment in your sig. You know the one about being judged by 12 instead of carried by 6? Really spend sometime thinking about that and understand what you may have to do to ensure that you get the chance to be judged instead of carried. When you think about it I'm pretty sure that you won't have time to continually 'escalate the level of force as necessary.' The only way you can do that is when you're in TOTAL CONTROL of the fight due to a VAST DISPARITY in skill level. That's about the time you're question shouldn't be about level of force but about why you're fighting and victimizing this person in the first place. Just make sure that they don't have gun when you back off.

Respectfully,
James

P.S. -- Don't mean to be jerk if that's how that reads but this topic HITS HOME with me. I lost my instructor, his two sons, and his daughter in several incidents that can be summed up as "they held back, the other person got a second chance and used it to kill them" from the stories the witnesses relayed to me. Then I ask why didn't the witnesses help, but I know the answer to that question already.

Good points, but not every situation is going to be life and death. I don't think its a matter so much of laying off the power compared to beaking a limb. A hard knee shot to the midsection may put that person down. Hard shots can be delivered and not break something. As for waiting until after the fact to worry about the legalities...I have to disagree there. We still need to be aware of what we're doing. The theory of 'shoot now, ask questions later' may not be the best road to take.

Mike

 

[searcher]

I have only one argument about the break or KO. If you hit them in the head there is a greater risk of giving that person brain damage or a spinal injury. If you break a bone there is a gretaer chance that the person will fully recover. If you actually have a choice I would go for the bonebreak. JMHO.

 

[ppko]

I have only one argument about the break or KO. If you hit them in the head there is a greater risk of giving that person brain damage or a spinal injury. If you break a bone there is a gretaer chance that the person will fully recover. If you actually have a choice I would go for the bonebreak. JMHO.

I am not going to fret I will do what I must to survive the fight, weather that be breaking bones, giving them brain damages or anything else if I am attacked and I feel it to be a threat to my life or my families I will have no remorse in offing the individual. I understand where you are coming from but you don't have time to think about what you are doing, and what if the guy/girl has a knife that you don't see I no longer go to bars if I am attacked I see it as a threat to my life.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I am not going to fret I will do what I must to survive the fight, weather that be breaking bones, giving them brain damages or anything else if I am attacked and I feel it to be a threat to my life or my families I will have no remorse in offing the individual. I understand where you are coming from but you don't have time to think about what you are doing, and what if the guy/girl has a knife that you don't see I no longer go to bars if I am attacked I see it as a threat to my life.

Exactly.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Good points, but not every situation is going to be life and death. I don't think its a matter so much of laying off the power compared to beaking a limb. A hard knee shot to the midsection may put that person down. Hard shots can be delivered and not break something. As for waiting until after the fact to worry about the legalities...I have to disagree there. We still need to be aware of what we're doing. The theory of 'shoot now, ask questions later' may not be the best road to take.

Mike

If it's not life or death then why are you fighting? Awareness...yes...thinking about the law when your life is on the line....foolish distraction that can get you killed. And again if your life isn't on the line then why are you fighting? it's not so much "shoot first, ask questions later". It's more so "after the questions didn't work to calm the situation down it's now time to shoot." When someone attacks you do you take that as threat to your life or do you go the optomistic route of thinking they ONLY want to hurt you? That's one question you can't afford to be wrong on. And agan, if they're not attacking you why are you fighting? and If they are attacking you how do you know your life isn't what they want? Food for thought as you can never truly know what the attacker is thinking.

 

[MJS]

If it's not life or death then why are you fighting? Awareness...yes...thinking about the law when your life is on the line....foolish distraction that can get you killed. And again if your life isn't on the line then why are you fighting? it's not so much "shoot first, ask questions later". It's more so "after the questions didn't work to calm the situation down it's now time to shoot." When someone attacks you do you take that as threat to your life or do you go the optomistic route of thinking they ONLY want to hurt you? That's one question you can't afford to be wrong on. And agan, if they're not attacking you why are you fighting? and If they are attacking you how do you know your life isn't what they want? Food for thought as you can never truly know what the attacker is thinking.

Once again, good post! I guess where I was going with this was, until the altercation begins we're not going to know this persons intentions. Does he want to intimidate us verbally? Does he want to show us how tough he is by taking a few swings and leaving us in a heap on the ground? Does he want to kill us? I still say that we need to base our response off of what is happening. If the situation continues to escalate, then we need to escalate our response. I'm certainly not against breaking the guys arm, but why not take your other options into consideration?

Mike

 

[MJS]

I am not going to fret I will do what I must to survive the fight, weather that be breaking bones, giving them brain damages or anything else if I am attacked and I feel it to be a threat to my life or my families I will have no remorse in offing the individual.

Hmm...I think that the courts will have a field day with you.

I understand where you are coming from but you don't have time to think about what you are doing, and what if the guy/girl has a knife that you don't see I no longer go to bars if I am attacked I see it as a threat to my life.

Well, I would hope that nobody would stand there thinking, "Well, this guy is going to punch me. Which one of my 30 punch techniques do I do?" IMO, you still need to be responsible for your actions. Swinging away wildly having no idea what you're doing certainly doesn't seem to be the best option IMO.

Mike

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Hmm...I think that the courts will have a field day with you.
Mike

Would you rather it be the morticians having a field day with what's left of you? Just a thought?

But "offing" the guy is a little extreme but I can think of a few scenarios where that would be a course of action (example: attempting to maliciously harm my 4-year old son? see you in.....)

Yours in MartialTalk,
James

 

[ppko]

Hmm...I think that the courts will have a field day with you.

That is fine with me at least I will be alive or my family will what ever it takes to survive I will do

Well, I would hope that nobody would stand there thinking, "Well, this guy is going to punch me. Which one of my 30 punch techniques do I do?" IMO, you still need to be responsible for your actions. Swinging away wildly having no idea what you're doing certainly doesn't seem to be the best option IMO.

Mike

who said anything about swinging away wildly, but the person that attacks me has to be responsible for what becomes of them. do what becomes natural hit what presents itself those are the keys to being successful in an altercation :asian:

 

[ppko]

Would you rather it be the morticians having a field day with what's left of you? Just a thought?

But "offing" the guy is a little extreme but I can think of a few scenarios where that would be a course of action (example: attempting to maliciously harm my 4-year old son? see you in.....)

Yours in MartialTalk,
James

Great post agree with the example as well.

 

[MJS]

That is fine with me at least I will be alive or my family will what ever it takes to survive I will do

Well, thats perfectly fine as long as they don't mind going to visit you while you're locked up.

who said anything about swinging away wildly, but the person that attacks me has to be responsible for what becomes of them. do what becomes natural hit what presents itself those are the keys to being successful in an altercation :asian:

Maybe I misunderstood what you were implying here, but I took this:

I understand where you are coming from but you don't have time to think about what you are doing,

not having time to think, as being careless with your actions. My apologies, I should have been a bit clearer with what I was saying.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Would you rather it be the morticians having a field day with what's left of you? Just a thought?

But "offing" the guy is a little extreme but I can think of a few scenarios where that would be a course of action (example: attempting to maliciously harm my 4-year old son? see you in.....)

Yours in MartialTalk,
James

So because I choose not to break this guys arm, I'm going to end up on a cold slab?? Sorry my friend, but I have to disagree. If I can defend myself long enough to allow myself to escape the situation, that is what I'm concerned with, not standing there, trading blows for 10 min. If I can deflect that blow, counter with strikes of my own, and get out of there, thats what I'm going to do.

Mike

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

So because I choose not to break this guys arm, I'm going to end up on a cold slab?? Sorry my friend, but I have to disagree. If I can defend myself long enough to allow myself to escape the situation, that is what I'm concerned with, not standing there, trading blows for 10 min. If I can deflect that blow, counter with strikes of my own, and get out of there, thats what I'm going to do.

Mike

Mike, I was kidding! LOL but on the subject I hope you can defend yourself long enough to run away. I also hope that the assailant isn't faster than or doesn't have more cardio than you so he can't catch you and make you try to repeat the process. My point is this. Every second you spend concentrating on the other guy's safety is a second you're not focused on defense and that's a second where you're vulnerable. The way is in training. If you don't want to hurt the other guy then train constantly to use non-injuring forms of defense. That way it's second nature and you don't have to "think" about not hurting the other guy. But American Kenpo is quite injurious by design so that training methodology may be difficult.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

OK Mike here we go. And before I began I'm just discussing not trying to be a jerk. Suppose all diplomacy has failed. No chance of de-escalation (man that terms getting used alot LOL). You are now fighting and we'll assume this guy wants your life. At what point of the fight do you realize that you've given this guy too many chances and you also realize it's your life he's after? We'll go from there if you're up for it my friend.

James

 

[MJS]

Mike, I was kidding! LOL but on the subject I hope you can defend yourself long enough to run away. I also hope that the assailant isn't faster than or doesn't have more cardio than you so he can't catch you and make you try to repeat the process. My point is this. Every second you spend concentrating on the other guy's safety is a second you're not focused on defense and that's a second where you're vulnerable. The way is in training. If you don't want to hurt the other guy then train constantly to use non-injuring forms of defense. That way it's second nature and you don't have to "think" about not hurting the other guy. But American Kenpo is quite injurious by design so that training methodology may be difficult.

LOL, see how easy it is to misunderstand what people are saying on these forums!! I guess we can come up with countless ways of looking at something. What if? What if? I never said that I didn't want to hurt that guy. Sorry if I gave that impression. And you're right, Kenpo is quite injurious. But heres something to look at. For a lapel grab we have the tech. Lone Kimono. Now, if this guy is simply grabbing our lapel, do we have to break his arm, or could we opt for a joint lock? Depending on the situation and whats being presented to us, either option has its positives and negatives.

Mike