animal roots of Karate?

[Same Trick]

The "comprehensive" military version you are referring to, despite having the same name, is not the Bubishi that MaCarthy translated and has little to do with civilian MA and its impact on karate. They are two different books.

"The bible of karate" Bubishi seems to be an assembled collection of Chinese articles that made its way to Okinawa via a few independent pathways thru Miyagi, Matsumura and others, each version a bit different since they were individually hand copied as they were (very selectively) passed down from master to disciple. Some copies were lacking one or more articles and as the early karate guys were not artists, the illustrations are slightly different from copy to copy.

McCarthy's latest version is quite complete with additional added historical information and illustrations. The "revelations" this work contains is the emphasis on pressure points and Chinese medicine and confirmation that Crane kung fu and Arhat boxing were influential on early karate. The fact that the early karate masters put such high value on the Bubishi is an indicator of its importance to the development of the art.

So I googled a little and found about the book I had in mind - Ji Xiao Xin Shu..

“Qi Jiguang regarded unarmed fighting as being useless on the battlefield. However, he recognized its value as a form of basic training to strengthen his troops, improving their physical fitness and confidence.”

“Qi's discussion of hand-to-hand combat makes no mention of a spiritual element to the martial arts, nor to breathing or qi circulation By contrast, Chinese martial arts texts from the Ming-Qing transitiononward represent a synthesis of functional martial arts techniques with Daoist daoyin health practices, breathing exercises, and meditation”

Jixiao Xinshu

Some more on General Qi and his book -

戚继光 Qi Jiguang (1528-1588) 'Tiger General' stops Japanese pirates

DURING the Sengoku Period or Warring States Period in Japan from the mid-15th century to the beginning of the 17th century, many defeated samurais and impoverished peasants turned to piracy for a living. They were...

archive.shine.cn

Essentials of the Fist 拳經捷要 - Chinese Martial Arts Manuals

"Essentials Of The Fist" is based on 2 Ming Dynasty manuals: 紀效新書 (Ji Xiao Xin Shu) by General Qi Ji-guang 武備志 (Wu Bei Zhi) by Mao Yuan-Yi

www.chineselongsword.com

 

[isshinryuronin]

When did the Okinawan Bubishi come into being ? Somehow it doesn’t seem that “very old”, did it come into being by Miyagi’s(founder of gojuryu ryu) teacher’s generation ?. Was it originally only a Naha-te(gojuryu) possession?

Its origin is unknown. Probably compiled early 1800's? Made its way into Okinawa late 1800's. Matsumura (Shuri-te) and Miyagi (Naha-te) spent time in China as did his teacher, Higashionna. Others ended up with copies as well, including isshinryu founder Shimabuku and I believe Mabuni. My copy of McCarthy's book vanished last year but it goes into detail on its origins and transmissions.

 

[isshinryuronin]

the book I had in mind - Ji Xiao Xin Shu..

This book by Gen. Qi (1561) appears to be similar in content to the comprehensive military Bubishi (Wubei Zhi - early 1600's). Mr. McCarthy has noted a tiny bit of Qi's work in the Okinawan Bubishi.

“Qi's discussion of hand-to-hand combat makes no mention of a spiritual element to the martial arts, nor to breathing or qi circulation By contrast, Chinese martial arts texts from the Ming-Qing transitiononward represent a synthesis of functional martial arts techniques with Daoist daoyin health practices, breathing exercises, and meditation”

Yes, Daoist philosophy didn't permeate CMA till mid 1600's - 1700's, about the time (coincidentally?) that Shaolin began to emphasize empty hand combat along with their already notable spear/staff skills. This may be related to the new Qing dynasty not needing the monks for military service, CMA taking on a more civil purpose.

 

[Same Trick]

Its origin is unknown. Probably compiled early 1800's? Made its way into Okinawa late 1800's. Matsumura (Shuri-te) and Miyagi (Naha-te) spent time in China as did his teacher, Higashionna. Others ended up with copies as well, including isshinryu founder Shimabuku and I believe Mabuni. My copy of McCarthy's book vanished last year but it goes into detail on its origins and transmissions.

Some very well written takes on the Okinawan Bubishi -

“it is worth remembering that the oldest extent hand copied Bubishi manuscripts date to 1930. This is only a few years prior to the first translations of the text appearing for sale in Japan in the middle of the 1930s. To paraphrase Paul Bowman, we are once again confronted with a book that is treated as ancient yet, upon closer inspection, turns out to not even be all that old.”

The Bubishi: Innovation, Tradition and the Southern Chinese Martial Arts

And -

“While a respectable number of late imperial martial arts manuals still exist, most of them lack the unique structure and emphasis on medicine (specifically, trauma medicine), that we see in the Bubishi. That does not mean that the book is utterly unique. Wing Chun students are probably already thinking about “Leung Jan’s Book,” inherited by Ip Man, that is now on public display in his museum in Foshan. This handwritten, two volume collection, also includes a mixture of medical and martial material. In fact, readers who are already familiar with the Bubishi will find its medical illustrations quite familiar.”

“that the Bubishi belongs to the genre of popular literature known as “Bronze Man Notebooks.” These works were the prized possessions of the sorts of physician/martial artists who were such a fixture in the towns, temples and marketplaces of southern China.”

The Bubishi Gets its Due: Returning the ‘Bible of Karate’ to its Chinese Roots



Sorry for the derail from the thread topic.

 

[Same Trick]

double post

 

[isshinryuronin]

“it is worth remembering that the oldest extent hand copied Bubishi manuscripts date to 1930.

But these were copied from older ones. It's thought Itosu (d. 1915) had one, so the compilation must have been around prior to 1900. There were just a few hand copied ones to begin with. Maybe half of all Okinawan documents were lost during the US bombing and invasion of Okinawa. One out of eight Okinawans died. That would be proportionate to about 25 million Americans. The emphasis on Chinese medicine and old blood flow theory to me points to prior 1900 as this would not be of great interest to practitioners in the world of modern Western medicine. McCarthy lays out a much-researched study of possible avenues of transmission.

The second book you quote said "...very little in this work outwardly resembles modern karate practice." I disagree. Many of the illustrations show techniques that can be found in modern Okinawan kata. Also notable is the lack of kicks depicted. This aligns with traditional Okinawan practice.

 

[Same Trick]

But these were copied from older ones. It's thought Itosu (d. 1915) had one, so the compilation must have been around prior to 1900. There were just a few hand copied ones to begin with. Maybe half of all Okinawan documents were lost during the US bombing and invasion of Okinawa. One out of eight Okinawans died. That would be proportionate to about 25 million Americans. The emphasis on Chinese medicine and old blood flow theory to me points to prior 1900 as this would not be of great interest to practitioners in the world of modern Western medicine. McCarthy lays out a much-researched study of possible avenues of transmission.

The second book you quote said "...very little in this work outwardly resembles modern karate practice." I disagree. Many of the illustrations show techniques that can be found in modern Okinawan kata. Also notable is the lack of kicks depicted. This aligns with traditional Okinawan practice.

Not from these above articles I linked to but from other sources within the Goju-ryu sphere, it’s claimed that the founder of Goju-ryu Chojun Miyagi was of a wealthy family that did business in pharmaceuticals(traditional Chinese medicine).

From that I can think that it was Chojun Miyagi who acquired such “bronze man” text(as mentioned in the article) during his trips to China/Fuijian province, and then in the 1930’s had the manuscripts translated to Japanese and piled together in book format

As for the two links I posted, it seem to argue that any Bubishi manuscript existing prior 1930 in Okinawa was not translated from original Chinese copies - question then, could karate masters such as Itosu understand the texts ?

 

[isshinryuronin]

any Bubishi manuscript existing prior 1930 in Okinawa was not translated from original Chinese copies - question then, could karate masters such as Itosu understand the texts ?

Itosu was not classically educated (that's why Funakoshi was the front man with the Japanese school system) so it may have been difficult since the Bubishi was written in old classical Chinese (another indicator maybe of it being pre- 1900). Many of the aristocratic Okinawans spoke Chinese (they were more closely allied with China than Japan for most of their history, up to 1879, and many of the old karate masters lived there for a few years (I don't think Itosu did). I don't know if any of the Okinawan versions were translated into a simpler form.