animal roots of Karate?

[Same Trick]

Not at all. The patch was designed by an early US Marine student of Shimabuku, Sensei Advincula, a few years after the style was founded. It was based on a dream Master Shimabuku had. How this dream was transmitted to Advincula, I don't know. There may have been a senior Okinawan student "middleman" involved. It's inconceivable the Master would confide his dreams to a junior blackbelt foreigner. How much the patch accurately portrays the dream and how much was embellished by Advincula (and possibly other students at the time) cannot be known. But the patch was made and endorsed by the Master.

As for the patch's meaning, one would have to be an interpreter of dreams as it was not purposefully designed. A lot of features exist in this complex, colorful and beautiful design which were probably given meaning after the fact IMO. A stormy sea, a calm goddess, a dragon, etc. All of it can be given to various interpretations, some obvious in Oriental culture, some just made up to fill out the story. It all sounds good, but I don't personally put too much importance to the mostly made-up symbolism. To me it simply represents a great traditional Okinawan karate style.

That’s interesting,, that there’s no specific clear symbolism in it, thanks for the explanation.

 

[Same Trick]

An exhaustive list, indeed!

I’m not very familiar with Chinese arts but when I have seen some animal forms being performed, there’s an attempt to mimic the movements of the particular movement; snakes rapid strike and retreat, the monkey’s leaping manner, hands and arms held in a tiger’s claw-like pose. This ‘mimicry’ is completely absent in Karate.

Dragons are, of course, mythological and so their movements can be whatever you want them to be!

Xin/xingyiquan there’s some mimic features in their animal forms but not so obvious as in as what I can imagine is done in southern Chinese styles. Tongbeiquan (a northern Chinese style) is sometimes referred to as a sort of monkey style because of its big swing arm movements that actually doesn’t look any monkey like at all, however in China at a time tongbeiquan was seen as a black people style meaning people into shady businesses favored the style - monkey business

 

[Flying Crane]

Xin/xingyiquan there’s some mimic features in their animal forms but not so obvious as in as what I can imagine is done in southern Chinese styles. Tongbeiquan (a northern Chinese style) is sometimes referred to as a sort of monkey style because of its big swing arm movements that actually doesn’t look any monkey like at all, however in China at a time tongbeiquan was seen as a black people style meaning people into shady businesses favored the style - monkey business

Tongbei is “white ape.”

There are several white or white-ish species of gibbons that live in SE Asia, areas like Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. Gibbons are small apes that live mostly in the trees and move through brachiation. They have very long arms compared to their bodies and I surmise might inspire a loose, long swinging method such as Tongbei. I do not know if northern Chinese would have encountered the animal to use it as inspiration for a methodical martial method, but perhaps the method migrated, or the people encountered the animals while traveling. Otherwise I suppose a monkey from Northern China could have been the source of inspiration, and it was translated as “ape”. The classification distinctions that separate monkeys and apes as distinct species in modern mammalogy probably were meaningless in the China of a couple centuries or more, ago.

The large, loose arm movements of the Tongbei method are reminiscent of long, swinging arms of an ape, hence the name.

Typically an animal method has some root inspiration that comes from a specific animal. It is usually deeper and more meaningful than simply physically mimicking the posture and movements of the animal, although there often is at least some of that, and that is what typically stands out to an observer. Very often the movements and exercises of the method bear little resemblance to the animal, leaving one wondering just what aspect of the animal provided the inspiration. Fujian white crane as well as Southern Praying Mantis (in contrast to the Northern Mantis methods) are good examples that often look little like the animal.

Tiger style is not simply using aggressing clawing attacks. Money style is not simply rolling around and trying to mimic the monkey. Crane is not simply standing on one foot and striking with the fingertip “crane beak” punch. Tibetan white crane actually does very little of that kind of thing at all.

An animal style will have a deeper methodology based on some movement or aspect of spirit (imagined or observed) of the animal and the system will be built upon a series of exercises designed with that in mind. The principles underneath all of this will guide how the method is practiced and applied.

 

[Flying Crane]

I’m not a Japanese language maestro so I don’t know for a fact that “kiba dachi” actually translate to “horse stance”, anyway if so that would pick up to a count of three karate “animal” stances -horse, cat and crane.

My understanding of the horse stance is that it is shortened from the full name “horseback riding stance” because the shape your legs take while in that stance resembles the shape they would take while riding a horse. It has nothing to do with anything that the horse is doing. It is not an “animal” stance.

 

[Flying Crane]

"...as i have learned them the five animals are five different fighting strategies. Tigers are more direct using heaviness and grabs and breaks and frontal attacks more than the leopard which uses more angles of attack and quick shifts to generate power with less holding than a tiger would use. the crane uses evasion and disrupts the balance of its opponets..no frontal attacks no meeting force with force, the snake is of two types constictor and viper the constictor style of fighting will wrap limbs and use chokes, the viper works on attacking vital point and vulnerable areas. the dragon combines different aspects of the other animals and also moves around the opponent attacks different zones simultaneuosly."

This is in reference to Kenpo.

May I ask, from where does the above quote come? I spent some years in a Chow/Parker Kenpo lineage. Some of those Kenpo lineages claim a connection to Shaolin five animals. It is my opinion that there is no legitimate connection there, despite the claims.

 

[isshinryuronin]

My understanding of the horse stance is that it is shortened from the full name “horseback riding stance” because the shape your legs take while in that stance resembles the shape they would take while riding a horse.

I believe horse stance is not the literal meaning of "kiba dachi," but rather a nickname that accurately describes the general posture of a rider, not the animal itself. The literal translation of "kiba" seems to be "fang/tusk." Not sure how this relates to the stance, if it does at all. Not really important in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Flying Crane]

I believe horse stance is not the literal meaning of "kiba dachi," but rather a nickname that accurately describes the general posture of a rider, not the animal itself. The literal translation of "kiba" seems to be "fang/tusk." Not sure how this relates to the stance, if it does at all. Not really important in the grand scheme of things.

Yes, I do not speak Japanese and actually have no idea how the term translates. But the English convention of “horse” stance is, I believe, a shortened form of “horseback riding” stance.

 

[Same Trick]

Tongbei is “white ape.”

There are several white or white-ish species of gibbons that live in SE Asia, areas like Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. Gibbons are small apes that live mostly in the trees and move through brachiation. They have very long arms compared to their bodies and I surmise might inspire a loose, long swinging method such as Tongbei. I do not know if northern Chinese would have encountered the animal to use it as inspiration for a methodical martial method, but perhaps the method migrated, or the people encountered the animals while traveling. Otherwise I suppose a monkey from Northern China could have been the source of inspiration, and it was translated as “ape”. The classification distinctions that separate monkeys and apes as distinct species in modern mammalogy probably were meaningless in the China of a couple centuries or more, ago.

The large, loose arm movements of the Tongbei method are reminiscent of long, swinging arms of an ape, hence the name.

Typically an animal method has some root inspiration that comes from a specific animal. It is usually deeper and more meaningful than simply physically mimicking the posture and movements of the animal, although there often is at least some of that, and that is what typically stands out to an observer. Very often the movements and exercises of the method bear little resemblance to the animal, leaving one wondering just what aspect of the animal provided the inspiration. Fujian white crane as well as Southern Praying Mantis (in contrast to the Northern Mantis methods) are good examples that often look little like the animal.

Tiger style is not simply using aggressing clawing attacks. Money style is not simply rolling around and trying to mimic the monkey. Crane is not simply standing on one foot and striking with the fingertip “crane beak” punch. Tibetan white crane actually does very little of that kind of thing at all.

An animal style will have a deeper methodology based on some movement or aspect of spirit (imagined or observed) of the animal and the system will be built upon a series of exercises designed with that in mind. The principles underneath all of this will guide how the method is practiced and applied.

Yes, but “tongbei” doesn’t translate as “white ape” it means something else. But yes a branch of tongbeiquan carries the nickname “white ape”, according to legend something to do with the physical features of the supposed creator of the style if I recall the story correctly?

I’ve not studied monkeys particularly but I believe them all have rather long arms in contrast to rest of body ? so any monkey up in the more north of China could have been inspirational for the nickname “white monkey”.

As for the particulars of the style tongbeiquan, the large swing/windmilling of the arms in many exercises are mostly to develop the shen-fa to power smaller actual combat techniques, as contradicting this may sound the practice is rather effective and quick to develop real pugilistic powers compared to for example taijiquan, Baguazhang and even Xingyiquan .
So that’s why the style to some extent came to be favored among the “black” people, which is not a reference to people of specific ethnicity but to people into shady/(not inline with the law) businesses .
I myself learned and study “wuxing(five element) tongbeiquan “ which I learned during my ten years up in the Dongbei region of China, it’s a branch of tongbeiquan popular up there.
I got some interesting insights into the tongbeiquan community in the city I lived in up there.
Despite the styles “black people” connection I’m very far from being a wise guy - I’m just a nice guy……with hairy long arms

 

[Same Trick]

My understanding of the horse stance is that it is shortened from the full name “horseback riding stance” because the shape your legs take while in that stance resembles the shape they would take while riding a horse. It has nothing to do with anything that the horse is doing. It is not an “animal” stance.

Yes of course, I’ll deduct my horse stance reference

 

[Same Trick]

My understanding of the horse stance is that it is shortened from the full name “horseback riding stance” because the shape your legs take while in that stance resembles the shape they would take while riding a horse. It has nothing to do with anything that the horse is doing. It is not an “animal” stance.

Yes of course, I’ll deduct my horse stance reference

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes, but “tongbei” doesn’t translate as “white ape” it means something else. But yes a branch of tongbeiquan carries the nickname “white ape”, according to legend something to do with the physical features of the supposed creator of the style if I recall the story correctly?

I’ve not studied monkeys particularly but I believe them all have rather long arms in contrast to rest of body ? so any monkey up in the more north of China could have been inspirational for the nickname “white monkey”.

As for the particulars of the style tongbeiquan, the large swing/windmilling of the arms in many exercises are mostly to develop the shen-fa to power smaller actual combat techniques, as contradicting this may sound the practice is rather effective and quick to develop real pugilistic powers compared to for example taijiquan, Baguazhang and even Xingyiquan .
So that’s why the style to some extent came to be favored among the “black” people, which is not a reference to people of specific ethnicity but to people into shady/(not inline with the law) businesses .
I myself learned and study “wuxing(five element) tongbeiquan “ which I learned during my ten years up in the Dongbei region of China, it’s a branch of tongbeiquan popular up there.
I got some interesting insights into the tongbeiquan community in the city I lived in up there.
Despite the styles “black people” connection I’m very far from being a wise guy - I’m just a nice guy……with hairy long arms

How would you translate Tongbei into English? I don’t speak Chinese, I’ve seen the method a few times and was told it is “white ape.” Google translate simply says “peer” without any context to understand what that means.

If it is an animal style, I would say it is not inspired by a monkey. The large, swinging arm strikes seem to me to be reminiscent of the brachiation and other body postures done by smaller apes like gibbons and siamangs. That is why I was suggesting a white gibbon, but their natural range is not northern China.

Monkeys don’t brachiate, their body structure is quite different from the apes. Monkeys run on all fours, even in the trees. The smaller ones will run on top of the tree limbs, leaping from tree to tree as they move across the canopy. Gibbons swing from one arm to the other, beneath the limbs, grasping above them as they go. They are amazingly agile when they do this and can move very quickly, changing directions on a whim. Their shoulder structure is very different from a monkey and I believe their arm to torso ratio is quite longer than what is typically seen in a monkey.

From what little that I know of Tongbei, the movement reminds me more of an ape such as a gibbon or siamang, and not really at all of a monkey. In my previous post I had suggested a monkey from northern China as a possibility in the absence of a gibbon, but based on the movement I don’t believe it.

 

[Same Trick]

How would you translate Tongbei into English? I don’t speak Chinese, I’ve seen the method a few times and was told it is “white ape.” Google translate simply says “peer” without any context to understand what that means.

If it is an animal style, I would say it is not inspired by a monkey. The large, swinging arm strikes seem to me to be reminiscent of the brachiation and other body postures done by smaller apes like gibbons and siamangs. That is why I was suggesting a white gibbon, but their natural range is not northern China.

Monkeys don’t brachiate, their body structure is quite different from the apes. Monkeys run on all fours, even in the trees. The smaller ones will run on top of the tree limbs, leaping from tree to tree as they move across the canopy. Gibbons swing from one arm to the other, beneath the limbs, grasping above them as they go. They are amazingly agile when they do this and can move very quickly, changing directions on a whim. Their shoulder structure is very different from a monkey and I believe their arm to torso ratio is quite longer than what is typically seen in a monkey.

From what little that I know of Tongbei, the movement reminds me more of an ape such as a gibbon or siamang, and not really at all of a monkey. In my previous post I had suggested a monkey from northern China as a possibility in the absence of a gibbon, but based on the movement I don’t believe it.

Monkeys or apes, yeah for me that’s not a zoologist it’s a somewhat non issue. But there at least was any of the such primates in the wilds of north China times ago, and of course the legend of the white-ape/monkey-man which tells as the founder of tongbeiquan say he was around some 2000 years ago, so it’s some time ago - but it’s just a legend/tale, the man was supposedly called white-monkey/ape because of his appearance(long white hair) and that he lived in the wilderness.
Come to think of it - those snowy monkeys/apes in Japan that hang out in hot springs, that’s probably the species that could be/have been found in northern China .
See, hear, say no evil(the three monkeys) is a Buddhist thing ? And of course the story of the monkey king, ape tales have been around all over China quite some time.

“(Spread/open)Through the back” - that’s “Tongbei”- from the ground up along the legs through the back out into the arms - not exactly as the gibbon swinging in tree branches

 

[Flying Crane]

Monkeys or apes, yeah for me that’s not a zoologist it’s a somewhat non issue. But there at least was any of the such primates in the wilds of north China times ago, and of course the legend of the white-ape/monkey-man which tells as the founder of tongbeiquan say he was around some 2000 years ago, so it’s some time ago - but it’s just a legend/tale, the man was supposedly called white-monkey/ape because of his appearance(long white hair) and that he lived in the wilderness.
Come to think of it - those snowy monkeys/apes in Japan that hang out in hot springs, that’s probably the species that could be/have been found in northern China .
See, hear, say no evil(the three monkeys) is a Buddhist thing ? And of course the story of the monkey king, ape tales have been around all over China quite some time.

“(Spread/open)Through the back” - that’s “Tongbei”- from the ground up along the legs through the back out into the arms - not exactly as the gibbon swinging in tree branches

Ok, I did a little more searching on the internet and found some info about it. I had never looked into Tongbei before because I’ve never trained it. I took at face value what I had been told and believed it was an animal system. Apparently it is not. In what I found, there was no mention of any animal as the inspiration for the development of the method. I stand corrected and I learned something today. Thanks!

 

[Prince_Alarming]

The bubishi spends a lot of time covering white crane stuff. The trouble is a lot of it is absolute dim mak tommyrot, but it does make me wonder whether this is one of karate's roots.

 

[Same Trick]

Ok, I did a little more searching on the internet and found some info about it. I had never looked into Tongbei before because I’ve never trained it. I took at face value what I had been told and believed it was an animal system. Apparently it is not. In what I found, there was no mention of any animal as the inspiration for the development of the method. I stand corrected and I learned something today. Thanks!

It’s ok, tongbeiquan is not so well known in the west, and for some time was not very openly taught in China either .
However there is a vauge “animal” connection, at least in some branch of wuxing tongbeiquan in Dalian where I lived and learned, well not animal but insect as in tanglang - the praying mantis. Dalian is near to Yantai in Shandong by ferry crossing, in Yantai tanglangquan has a strong presence and there has been some interchange between tanglangquan and tongbeiquan practitioners

 

[Same Trick]

The bubishi spends a lot of time covering white crane stuff. The trouble is a lot of it is absolute dim mak tommyrot, but it does make me wonder whether this is one of karate's roots.

The Okinawan bubishi seemingly is just a very small part of the Chinese original that is a comprehensive work on all things related to military tactics and stuff.
The “pugilistic” drawings in the book look kinda funky but not unrealistic.
Perhaps English translations and copy of the Okinawan bubishi is just a small part of the actual Okinawan version? I bought the Patric MaCarthy Bubishi book when it was first published years back and thought it was extremely thin in supposed revelations .

I just googled his book and see it nowadays has the mural painting of monks at Shaolin temple sparring on the cover, something not related to Baihequan of Fujian .

 

[isshinryuronin]

The Okinawan bubishi seemingly is just a very small part of the Chinese original that is a comprehensive work on all things related to military tactics and stuff.
The “pugilistic” drawings in the book look kinda funky but not unrealistic.
Perhaps English translations and copy of the Okinawan bubishi is just a small part of the actual Okinawan version? I bought the Patric MaCarthy Bubishi book when it was first published years back and thought it was extremely thin in supposed revelations .

I just googled his book and see it nowadays has the mural painting of monks at Shaolin temple sparring on the cover, something not related to Baihequan of Fujian .

The "comprehensive" military version you are referring to, despite having the same name, is not the Bubishi that MaCarthy translated and has little to do with civilian MA and its impact on karate. They are two different books.

"The bible of karate" Bubishi seems to be an assembled collection of Chinese articles that made its way to Okinawa via a few independent pathways thru Miyagi, Matsumura and others, each version a bit different since they were individually hand copied as they were (very selectively) passed down from master to disciple. Some copies were lacking one or more articles and as the early karate guys were not artists, the illustrations are slightly different from copy to copy.

McCarthy's latest version is quite complete with additional added historical information and illustrations. The "revelations" this work contains is the emphasis on pressure points and Chinese medicine and confirmation that Crane kung fu and Arhat boxing were influential on early karate. The fact that the early karate masters put such high value on the Bubishi is an indicator of its importance to the development of the art.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The bubishi spends a lot of time covering white crane stuff. The trouble is a lot of it is absolute dim mak tommyrot, but it does make me wonder whether this is one of karate's roots.

Pressure/vital points/blood flow/nerve meridians were definitely important in early karate. Uechi ryu and to a lesser extent goju ryu employ a lot of open hand and finger techniques to facilitate accurate striking of these points. These and other Okinawan styles used the "toe kick," not the ball of the foot, to strike and penetrate the opponent's vital points. There is a story of Arigake, I think, (it may be another master, my memory fades) kicking a man on a stairway with a toe kick to his armpit causing his death a couple of days later. Such technique was obviously not taken to Japan to teach the general public. Chinese medicine was also part of early training to treat broken bones and bruises, etc.