An interesting phone call today

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
However, at what point does the desire to remain friendly expose board members to fraudulent instructors and their wily schemes with no protection whatsoever?

You make many good points in this post. I have much sympathy with your viewpoint and as a member, not an admin., I might well agree. I am working principally on the "broken windows" theory (despite that fact that it has had some doubts cast upon it recently)--if potential new members come here and see lots of such bickering, will they want to join?

As to your point that I quoted above, this is a tough call. With the Canadian Kenpo instructor who was convicted of crimes involving his students, we allowed great leeway. In this case the only allegation is that a dan rank may--I emphasize, may--not have been earned, or not have been earned through accepted channels. (I take no position on the matter.) Since the instructor is clearly teaching his own style, I don't see ut as being important enough to warrant repeated discussion when there is such an obvious case of being at loggerheads. Certainly, it's a judgment call.

But MartialTalk is for friendly discussion of the martial arts--discussion of techniques, history, training methods, and so on. That's why we're here. That's what draws people in (we believe). That's what we want to be known for; we have no desire to be all things toall people.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

RSK has bashed "too many people?" How many is too many? I have seen him go toe to toe with several, but by no means has it been "many."

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Here you go... Try contacting these folks: RyuShu.com

RyuShiKan's dojo is listed under International listings...

Oh yeah… Good idea.…..I forgot I was listed there.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

And just because others don't read books and do research doesn't mean the arts they follow aren't suspect...

I don’t actually do much “research” I just ask questions.
Those questions are either answered honestly, or dishonestly.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Quite frankly I am surprised this thread has gotten so many responses.
All I wanted to do was post what transpired through a phone conversation……..I was going to do it on the “Your style” thread but it got locked down.

I think people have read enough to form an opinion one way or another on this subject.

All I have ever asked of people is that if they make a claim be able to prove it somehow.

If I said I was a former karate world champion you would expect me to be able to corroborate it somehow right?

As for being a “senior” student of Mr. Oyata……..sorry, just a lowly yudansha that is pretty far down the totem poll of rank.

 

[chufeng]

You may be far down on the totem, but with the quality of instruction you've received and continue to pass on to your students, you are head and shoulders above the majority.

I think that the interest that this thread (and previous threads) points out is that there are people who REALLY want to find quality instructors...they want to be able to trust their instructor's credentials...after all, they pay good money for instruction, shouldn't they get the best value for their dollar?

A teacher may be a good fighter with excellent real world experience...he may even hold legitimate rank...but the appearance of dishonesty, or evasiveness, sets up a bad situation in that his students may no longer trust what he says...

The best way to avoid that situation is to put your cards on the table...state "this is me, if you don't like it, go somewhere else," and go from there...

I think that we've come about as far as possible on this subject, but it is telling (the number of posts generated in such a short time) that people want to be able to trust those to whom they turn to for advice or instruction...

I think we owe the moderators a big thank you for letting it go this far...I figured it would have been locked about 20 posts back...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

I have no problem with guys that say “I made my own style and call it Fred’s Bar Room Ryu”
It’s when they make claims (lie about) to have connections to organization, ranks and titles they don’t that degrades what the rest of the honest martial arts population is trying to do. I cannot sit idle by and watch.

I saw a saying on a Marine Corps. base one time.
It said: “If you see something that’s not right and can you fix it but don’t you’re a coward”

I tend to agree with this statement on many levels.

 

[chufeng]

“If you see something that’s not right and can you fix it but don’t you’re a coward”

Kind of hard to argue with that...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

Ya gotta love the Marine Corps. mind set!

 

[Disco]

First, thanks to all who have read and answered any of my posts and furnished me with information. Hey! learn something new everyday. RyuShiKan and friends, I respect your principles and applaud your determination. Allow me to ask or reflect on this last question/comment. In all of the hostilities that have transpired, has the other party (MyaRyu) left the building? His rank may be in question, but you have to admit that he did not slink away or just disappear. He stayed to defend himself, granted not to the satisfaction of some, but non the less he stood his ground. Surely, that should/must account for something. A real fake or fraud, I doubt would have the courage to stand and fight. In reading the history behind this, I never read anything that suggested that he was trying to sell anything or dictate to anyone how great his style was. Just a thought.

By the way, there was no answer to a question I asked earlier, so I'll present it again. It kind of fits here. Could it be possible that his rank was from some other Organization/Country other than Okinawa? And if that's the case, would/does that change anyone's opinion? Again, thanks to all.........

 

[Matt Stone]

Actually, the quote is attributable to Confucius. Originally, it went more like:

"To see the right thing, and fail to do it, is to want of courage."

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Jill666]

Originally posted by chufeng
I think that the interest that this thread (and previous threads) points out is that there are people who REALLY want to find quality instructors...they want to be able to trust their instructor's credentials...after all, they pay good money for instruction, shouldn't they get the best value for their dollar?

Yes this is very much my point. When I joined up, I didn't know much about the martial arts. (Hell I still don't, relatively speaking)

I went to a studio near my house, and liked what I saw being taught. I met with the head instructor, and saw he was the same man who I had seen teaching. Lastly, he showed me the family tree for the school. The name over the door and on the family tree was found easily on the net, in association with GM Parker, who I had heard of. That was the assurance I needed, to be sure I wasn't going to John Smith's McDojo.

Can all these things be faked? Sure. But in time it really isn't hard to separate the men from the buys. Direct men can answer direct questions without endless frills and dancing.
:shrug:

 

[chufeng]

Could it be possible that his rank was from some other Organization/Country other than Okinawa?

Yes and No...

He might have gotten his rank from somewhere else, but the Honbo said, "No one outside of Okinawa could promote to that level..." so even if he did, it wouldn't be legitimate by the standards of the Honbo...

Again, I don't care one way or the other, he is probably a good fighter, a decent man, and has a good heart...it's just that he somehow wants to "connect" to the past to legitimize the thing he created...it simply smells wrong...

One of his students didn't even know what I was talking about when I referenced something he said earlier...what does that say about teaching the "roots" of a system?

:asian:
chufeng

 

[arnisador]

My understanding was that there are several Pangainoon schools that are off-shoots/devolutions of Uechi-ryu--that there is more than one such karate style and at least one that considers itself a kung fu style (but comes via Uechi, not via the original Pangainoon of China). It may not be quite so simple.

There's also Shohei-ryu (see also here). Hmmm, then there's also Kirisutokyoo-Ryu ("The Christian Way"), another Uechi off-shoot:

Kirisutokyoo-Ryu does not endorse Asian religious ideas, but requires Biblical study in order to advance through the ranks.

 

[Matt Stone]

Kirisutokyoo-Ryu does not endorse Asian religious ideas, but requires Biblical study in order to advance through the ranks.

Uh, yeah...

Whatever.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[chufeng]

I'm not opposed to someone learning "scripture" to advance...but it certainly limits the membership...or you will have really old white belts.

I am a Christian...a zen, contemplative Christian...I don't kow-tow to any religions...and I respect the beliefs of others...I don't try and force feed my beliefs on them...

I do expect my students to read John (new testament)...
But I also expect them to read LaoTze, Chuang Tze, Buddhist scripture, Hindu texts, and many other ideas...they are adults and can make up their own mind about WHAT they choose to follow...

All I ask of my students is that they investigate another idea before criticizing it.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by chufeng
DAC,

Mya (according to YOUR teacher is an Arabic word which refers to the quality of water...sometimes flowing, sometimes splashing, sometimes coming in as a torrent...his words, not mine)


chufeng,
Maybe you misunderstood what my question.
water flows into and threw anything if you pour water into a glass it becomes that glass ect. Martial arts should flow and conform to any scituation like water, wich is the reason for the word mya in our styles title. I do know what the title means!


Mya Ryu Jitsu = (arabic)Some quality of water/(japanese)established school/(japanese)art...How come you don't know that if you are a student of that system?

I DO.

How is that twisting anything?

chufeng,
Use the whole sentence rather than just splashing!

I've met Mr. Oyata, twice, he is one of the very few real Masters left on the planet...Mr. Rousselot is one of Oyata Sensei's senior students...that is very easy to establish...and RSK is not ashamed to post any number of ways to verify it...unlike someone else.

chufeng,
I think I already made it clear that MRJ choses not to justify himself to certain individuals on this forum due to the way he was treated day one on entering, there are many people who frequent this forum that he has respect for and has revealed and backed up his credentials with! As for the ones who dont know yet they will never know because he owes them nothing!


I appreciate you coming to the defense of your teacher...I already acknowledged that he probably is a skilled fighter...that is NOT what this debate is about...and quite frankly I'm tired of it...

Good day...

:asian:
chufeng

I am also tired of it!

Please take no offence to this but of all people on this forum I would have never expected the yilis to act like this. If I remember your sifu starr created yiliquan from more than one style and your rank can only be backed up by him, I have never heard of yiliquan until here nor do I have proof that it even exists, I have never questioned it or disrespected any of you and yet you and others continue to attack my teacher and mentor I am 28 years old and have never seen such jealousy as I see in this forum, cant anyone just realize that there are many MRJ students here and where not going away the sooner your envy and personal gripes against MRJ go away the sooner this debate will end.

In my opinion anyone who judges someone in this forum they have never met, and make statements that they can not back up they are IGNORANT this may or may not be directed toward you, those whom I am directing it towards know who they are. :asian:

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by KennethKu
None of my business, but this really sends the message that you are inviting all the cons and "fakers" to come to Martial Talk, where they are welcomed to lie and be protected by the mods. You are basically telling people that if they are interested in legitimacy and honesty then they should not come to Martial Talk, but to go to other forums.

It does give the appearance that you are willing to cater to liars and to protect them from the honest decent folks who would not put up with lie.

This may not be what you have in mind. But that is the message you are presenting, unfortunately.

Respectfully

Your Ignorance has also been reveiled, you make statements you can not back up about people you have never met!

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Uhhhh I forgot…….. what rank have I claimed?




Yes I read, and have Internet access and also train almost everyday.
Do you have better connections than me? If so great.

I never said you claimed any rank I'm simply asking what your rank is and how you can prove it! I have veiwed the web sites that have been posted by either chufeng or yiliquan1 and that still doesnt prove anything I'm not about to call someone whom I do not know to check on your credentials for all I know it could be a buddy or a family member.

I also train every day, dont aviod the question you have much knowledge and claim to have connections that can prove other peolpe do not have rank they claim. I just want you to prove these connections and how they can prove that MRJ doesnt have such rank. You know as well as I do that this cant be done because you dont know every grandmaster in the world and I'm sure that whom ever you called has never heard of MRJ but is he the only authority on this matter?

My maturity is based on the level of maturity of the person I am dealing with and in my opinion you are acting like a child on this debate, just because MRJ will not reveal to you the name of the instructor who last promoted him doesnt mean it never happened.

Much to common belief MRJ owes nothing to anyone on this site.
I believe that I am allowed a error in spelling once in a while.

P.S. I have been studying Kong Feuy for 1 week now and my instructors name is hong kong feuy, I just recieved my 22 degree black belt prove I didnt ( get my point )

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Always remember to think before you speak/write/post. It bites you in the butt every time when you don't...



I seem to remember it being used in conjunction with either ZDW or MRJ, but have trouble finding where...



Not at all... Just as in MA when you use your opponent's attack against him, in a battle of words, words are used against those issuing them. No twisting required at all... That's why I always quote the entire post I am rebutting, inserting my comments where appropriate, so no portion of the other person's comments can be considered to have been deleted.



RSK has bashed "too many people?" How many is too many? I have seen him go toe to toe with several, but by no means has it been "many."



Here you go... Try contacting these folks: RyuShu.com

RyuShiKan's dojo is listed under International listings...



And just because others don't read books and do research doesn't mean the arts they follow aren't suspect...



I'm looking forward to RyuShiKan's response when he sees how this thread has expanded while he's been away...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Yiliquan,
check out the responces I have given chufeng above I think some of your cocerns here have been adressed.

Also you did use the word splashing out of text wich caused my question!

There alot of people on this site making alot of claims that can never really be proven RSK being one of those people, the above adresses dont prove anything I have Know clue as to whom is on the other end of this!

RSK has a huge ego and seems to enjoy belittling others and that is the reason he has been suspended more than once, I dont feel as thow anyone is being fare with MRJ or even giving him a chance. You feel strongly about RSK because you know him and have trained with him, if you were to get to know MRJ and trained with him I know beyond the shadow of a doubt you would change your mind about him unfortunately this is difficult due to the distance between us but I dont think you should judge him or his style until you have had such an oportunity.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
Yiliquan,
check out the responces I have given chufeng above I think some of your cocerns here have been adressed.

Thanks, but I've already caught up with the posting...

Also you did use the word splashing out of text wich caused my question!

You need to re-read the posts... Chufeng used the word "splashing," not me... I know all of us Yili people look alike, but try to keep us straight, okay?

There alot of people on this site making alot of claims that can never really be proven

And that is what started the entire disagreement between your teacher and others...

RSK being one of those people, the above adresses dont prove anything I have Know clue as to whom is on the other end of this!

Well, www.ryushu.com is the website for Mr. Mike Minor. You could discover that on your own with a very brief review of the main page, since his picture is splashed across it, and his bio is posted right there in plain sight. Mr. Minor is another one of Taika Oyata's personal students. There is also an extensive listing of the Ryu Te dojos worldwide... Pretty simple, really.

RSK has a huge ego and seems to enjoy belittling others and that is the reason he has been suspended more than once,

No, he has been banned because he doesn't always play nice and he doesn't always back off when he sees someone trying to portray themselves as something they are not. He (and others, myself included) take "self-policing" pretty seriously, since there are plenty of others in the MA community that are okay with all sorts of bogus claims being levied by anyone and everyone...

And the only folks that seem to think his comments are belittling are the folks on the receiving end. There have been a number of posts supporting RyuShiKan's questions... Not so many supporting MRJ's resistance to providing the requested proof of rank.

I dont feel as thow anyone is being fare with MRJ or even giving him a chance.

Not at all. He was given every opportunity to provide the answers to the questions posed to him. He balked at every turn. I don't recall anyone calling MRJ names like the ones you called RyuShiKan. All I remember were questions being asked with no answers given.

Whatever. I really don't care anymore, and am only replying to you this one final time because you addressed me directly in this post.

You feel strongly about RSK because you know him and have trained with him, if you were to get to know MRJ and trained with him I know beyond the shadow of a doubt you would change your mind about him unfortunately this is difficult due to the distance between us but I dont think you should judge him or his style until you have had such an oportunity.

You're right. I feel strongly about RyuShiKan because I have seen and read his rank certificate, I have trained with him and his students, and have trained with others who have trained with RyuShiKan, his students, and others in his organization. I feel strongly because my teacher knows RyuShiKan's teacher, and I feel that, in a particular way, he and I are "brothers" of a sort. Perhaps I would feel strongly about MRJ... Then again, maybe not. But I know that right now, with what I know of him from this exchange alone, I am not terribly motivated to go out of my way to give him a chance of any kind. Had he offered answers when asked, I know I would be differently inclined.

Enjoy the rest of the thread. I'm unsubscribing to this thread and moving on to other, more interesting topics.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
If there are questions on an individuals qualifications, ask them. Give the other side to respond or to not respond. If you believe his 43rd degree in woodworking isn't valid, put up the info. Call those in the know, trace back lineages and get the facts as you can find them. Use the 'horror stories' (I'm renaming it soon) forum for that means. If the person is a poster here, put a 'Hey, question on credentials' type post in their main forum, and then point them at the main discussion in the bad budo forum.

So let me see if I understand this. If Ryushikan posts a thread entitled "Mya Ryu Jitsu" in the horror stories forum and posts all that he has learned about it while inviting the members of th eorginization to respond in a civilized and repectfull manner (which they do not seem to be capable of so far) then that is OK? And the next time a person makes a statement like, "After the decades of experience I have had as a master, it is my exaulted opinion that....." we are allowed to respond to that type of statement by posting the url of the discussion on their credentials? That may be either a good way to stop fights, or a good way to start some constant hounding.

And I have to agree that some people do not want to talk about their past for soem very good reasons. But if they are willing to make statments about their credentials ina public manner, then they should be able to verify those claism in just as public a manner. If they are tryingot hide their past, it does not make sense for them to make public statements that refer to that past.