An Inconvenient Truth

[Monadnock]

Ugh. I just can't live with myself anymore. Please, please everyone...won't you join me as I retreat to my room, lock the door and wallow in my shame? Thank you Al Gore, and may you someday find it in your heart to forgive me and the rest of mankind's sinners.

 

[Xue Sheng]

One of you guys explain to me how come we came out of the "mini" iceage we wre experiencing a few hundred years ago with out industry or the global warming activities that are oh so clearly responsible for todays climate shift. Cause if you can accept that the world is way more complex than Al Gore, maybe there's hope for you.

Wasn't the mini ice age brought about by a very large volcanic eruption? It is also speculated that a large underwater landslide may have disrupted the oceanic conveyor belt system that may have also been a contributing factor as well. I would I imagine its ending had a lot to do with the clearing of the ash in the atmosphere and the conveyor reestablishing itself.


And yes the world is incredibly complex, but not having read the book or seen the movie, I cannot comment on Al's interpretation, although he did invent the internet (sorry, I can't talk about Al without that). However increased hurricane strength and numbers is not proof. This is a cycle that last ended, I beilieve, in the early 60s and I also believe the cycles are 30 to 40 year apart so this may be normal Hurricane activity.


The complexities (to name a few) for example


1) The Earths orbit is not set in stone. There are times that it is more elliptical and times it is more circular
a) time of the dinosaurs it was more circular
b) During major ice ages it is more elliptical


2) The Earth's Axis is not as stable as most believe
a) time of the dinosaurs it was more vertical
b) During major ice ages it is more tilted


3) Ice caps melting do more than raise sea level, although beach property in Southern Georgia may not be so bad for those that live there.
a) Sea level rises
b) large amounts of fresh water cause desalination of oceans
c) Desalination can affect the oceanic conveyor belt system - this is very bad. Think of a HAVAC failure in a large office building. Some parts get very cold others get very hot. However if the system shuts down today likely none of us posting would probably be around to feel any major effects. Speculation is that it can take a long time to feel the effects…maybe.


4) Sun Sport activity affects the planet in many ways, but I cannot remember those off the top of my head, so look them up if you are interested. I believe one thing that can be affected can be the magnetic field of the planet


5) As the planet heats up, you get longer growing seasons in some areas, but you also get some areas once warm becoming to cold. Diseases that were once tropical and of little effect move to the new warm areas and cause some fairly major problems. There could also be planetary sifts of insect, and animal populations as well as plant life changes, not to mentions extinctions.


6) A warmer planet is generally a more humid planet. water vapor in the atmosphere begins to reflect sunlight back and your planet can cool, then we can be heading for another ice age.


7) Also there are several volcanoes under Antarctica. Any one of those goes off instant fresh water in the oceans and lots of it. Not to mention potentially large chunks of ice in shipping lanes.


8) If the ice caps melt off on Antarctica ground tends to get compressed under heavy ice. Once the ice is gone it tends to push up a bit. This could cause volcanic eruptions. Large enough eruption, with enough ash, colder temperatures globally.


9) we get another ice age, not bad if you want Cliffside property next to the ocean in what is now the Chesapeake bay. But mile thick sheets of ice heading towards a city near you just can’t be good.


There are a lot of things on the planet that can cause major catastrophes. part of the Hawaiian islands wants to shear off, can you say Tsunami. It will hit the West coast of the US. Another island off of Africa wants to do the same, Tsunami hits the east coast. This one could potentially put NYC under water


And yes, large amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere are a bad thing and we need to do something NOW!!!

 

[Kensai]

Wasn't the mini ice age brought about by a very large volcanic eruption? It is also speculated that a large underwater landslide may have disrupted the oceanic conveyor belt system that may have also been a contributing factor as well. I would I imagine its ending had a lot to do with the clearing of the ash in the atmosphere and the conveyor reestablishing itself.


And yes the world is incredibly complex, but not having read the book or seen the movie, I cannot comment on Al's interpretation, although he did invent the internet (sorry, I can't talk about Al without that). However increased hurricane strength and numbers is not proof. This is a cycle that last ended, I beilieve, in the early 60s and I also believe the cycles are 30 to 40 year apart so this may be normal Hurricane activity.


The complexities (to name a few) for example


1) The Earths orbit is not set in stone. There are times that it is more elliptical and times it is more circular
a) time of the dinosaurs it was more circular
b) During major ice ages it is more elliptical


2) The Earth's Axis is not as stable as most believe
a) time of the dinosaurs it was more vertical
b) During major ice ages it is more tilted


3) Ice caps melting do more than raise sea level, although beach property in Southern Georgia may not be so bad for those that live there.
a) Sea level rises
b) large amounts of fresh water cause desalination of oceans
c) Desalination can affect the oceanic conveyor belt system - this is very bad. Think of a HAVAC failure in a large office building. Some parts get very cold others get very hot. However if the system shuts down today likely none of us posting would probably be around to feel any major effects. Speculation is that it can take a long time to feel the effects…maybe.


4) Sun Sport activity affects the planet in many ways, but I cannot remember those off the top of my head, so look them up if you are interested. I believe one thing that can be affected can be the magnetic field of the planet


5) As the planet heats up, you get longer growing seasons in some areas, but you also get some areas once warm becoming to cold. Diseases that were once tropical and of little effect move to the new warm areas and cause some fairly major problems. There could also be planetary sifts of insect, and animal populations as well as plant life changes, not to mentions extinctions.


6) A warmer planet is generally a more humid planet. water vapor in the atmosphere begins to reflect sunlight back and your planet can cool, then we can be heading for another ice age.


7) Also there are several volcanoes under Antarctica. Any one of those goes off instant fresh water in the oceans and lots of it. Not to mention potentially large chunks of ice in shipping lanes.


8) If the ice caps melt off on Antarctica ground tends to get compressed under heavy ice. Once the ice is gone it tends to push up a bit. This could cause volcanic eruptions. Large enough eruption, with enough ash, colder temperatures globally.


9) we get another ice age, not bad if you want Cliffside property next to the ocean in what is now the Chesapeake bay. But mile thick sheets of ice heading towards a city near you just can’t be good.


There are a lot of things on the planet that can cause major catastrophes. part of the Hawaiian islands wants to shear off, can you say Tsunami. It will hit the West coast of the US. Another island off of Africa wants to do the same, Tsunami hits the east coast. This one could potentially put NYC under water


And yes, large amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere are a bad thing and we need to do something NOW!!!

Clap! Clap! Clap! Clap!... Finally, someone with a modicum of common sense. There are too many closed minded individuals on this planet as it is, without people denying that there's anything wrong with it.

Whether we're headed for an ice age next Tuesday, just after tea-time, or whether we're abusing the hell out of this incredible planet of ours is splitting hairs. We are, we have the power to change. A lot can't be arsed. The masses are too lazy. Will post more later.

 

[mrhnau]

Wasn't the mini ice age brought about by a very large volcanic eruption? It is also speculated that a large underwater landslide may have disrupted the oceanic conveyor belt system that may have also been a contributing factor as well. I would I imagine its ending had a lot to do with the clearing of the ash in the atmosphere and the conveyor reestablishing itself.


And yes the world is incredibly complex, but not having read the book or seen the movie, I cannot comment on Al's interpretation, although he did invent the internet (sorry, I can't talk about Al without that). However increased hurricane strength and numbers is not proof. This is a cycle that last ended, I beilieve, in the early 60s and I also believe the cycles are 30 to 40 year apart so this may be normal Hurricane activity.


The complexities (to name a few) for example


1) The Earths orbit is not set in stone. There are times that it is more elliptical and times it is more circular
a) time of the dinosaurs it was more circular
b) During major ice ages it is more elliptical


2) The Earth's Axis is not as stable as most believe
a) time of the dinosaurs it was more vertical
b) During major ice ages it is more tilted


3) Ice caps melting do more than raise sea level, although beach property in Southern Georgia may not be so bad for those that live there.
a) Sea level rises
b) large amounts of fresh water cause desalination of oceans
c) Desalination can affect the oceanic conveyor belt system - this is very bad. Think of a HAVAC failure in a large office building. Some parts get very cold others get very hot. However if the system shuts down today likely none of us posting would probably be around to feel any major effects. Speculation is that it can take a long time to feel the effects…maybe.


4) Sun Sport activity affects the planet in many ways, but I cannot remember those off the top of my head, so look them up if you are interested. I believe one thing that can be affected can be the magnetic field of the planet


5) As the planet heats up, you get longer growing seasons in some areas, but you also get some areas once warm becoming to cold. Diseases that were once tropical and of little effect move to the new warm areas and cause some fairly major problems. There could also be planetary sifts of insect, and animal populations as well as plant life changes, not to mentions extinctions.


6) A warmer planet is generally a more humid planet. water vapor in the atmosphere begins to reflect sunlight back and your planet can cool, then we can be heading for another ice age.


7) Also there are several volcanoes under Antarctica. Any one of those goes off instant fresh water in the oceans and lots of it. Not to mention potentially large chunks of ice in shipping lanes.


8) If the ice caps melt off on Antarctica ground tends to get compressed under heavy ice. Once the ice is gone it tends to push up a bit. This could cause volcanic eruptions. Large enough eruption, with enough ash, colder temperatures globally.


9) we get another ice age, not bad if you want Cliffside property next to the ocean in what is now the Chesapeake bay. But mile thick sheets of ice heading towards a city near you just can’t be good.


There are a lot of things on the planet that can cause major catastrophes. part of the Hawaiian islands wants to shear off, can you say Tsunami. It will hit the West coast of the US. Another island off of Africa wants to do the same, Tsunami hits the east coast. This one could potentially put NYC under water


And yes, large amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere are a bad thing and we need to do something NOW!!!

yeah, what he said

 

[elder999]

yeah, what he said

IT's worse than that-the major reflectors of sunshine and heat are the polar ice-caps. No ice cap reflection means more heat absorbtion by the darker water, and a cascading effect of all that "he said."

 

[Xue Sheng]

IT's worse than that-the major reflectors of sunshine and heat are the polar ice-caps. No ice cap reflection means more heat absorbtion by the darker water, and a cascading effect of all that "he said."

That too, as I said to name a few.

No ice caps can lead you right back to greater humidity and volcanic eruptions.

Ash and water reflect/block sunlight and here you go again back to ice age.

Funny thing is that it may point to the possibility that the planet may be self-correcting regardless of who is populating it. But this is NOT saying do nothing and the planet will handle it. It IS saying you may not WANT the planet to handle it; it could be detrimental to your health and or existence.

There are a lot of things that can happen because of this. There are also very nasty things that can happen, as previously said “next Tuesday, just after tea-time” that can be globally devastating, that we can do absolutely nothing about. How would a Tsunami hitting NYC or the West Coat of the US effect the planet economically, or agriculturally. Absolutely no doubt the Hudson would reverse flow for a bit, how does that affect the rest of NY. A volcano becomes active under Antarctica, global flooding occurs, just to mention one side effect. This to can reverse flow on rivers world wide. And then of course there is always the meteor thingy, but I am not going to go there. Oh and I recently had a conversatin with a geograpy grad student that claims we are running out of fresh water, we are not handling water well at all.

Whether or not Al’s book slash movie is totally factual or partly sensational I do not know, however this stuff is real and can happen. And climatologists are for the most part speculating based on computer programs and simulations. However there are uncountable variables involved and you simply cannot program them all in. I do not believe something like the movie “the Day after tomorrow” is coming, but something is if we do not do something to fix it, if we can. And face, some things we can’t, all we can do is wait, if a large piece of rock shears off an island or there is a massive volcanic eruption from a super-volcano or a deep fault earthquake or an earthquake under the ocean there is not much we can do there.

Damn, now I will have to read Al’s book to see what he is saying, as if I don't have enough to read already. All I can say so far is that the hurricane example is not a good one, Some things in weather are cyclical.

Side note: I forget which ice age but the planet came dangerously close (geologically speaking), way back when, to total ice coverage. If that happens all sunlight is reflected back and then you pretty much have a lifeless ice ball.

 

[michaeledward]

Mr. Gore was on Jon Stewart's 'The Daily Show' last evening. I'm sure the interview will be available on the internet soon.

Also, I just watched a John Stossel interview with Joe Scarborough over at Crooks And Liars. Mr. Stossel does not believe in human caused Global Warming.

 

[shesulsa]

Mr. Gore was on Jon Stewart's 'The Daily Show' last evening. I'm sure the interview will be available on the internet soon.

Also, I just watched a John Stossel interview with Joe Scarborough over at Crooks And Liars. Mr. Stossel does not believe in human caused Global Warming.

Mr. Stossel doesn't "believe" in acupuncture, herbology, vaccine limitation, etcetera, so ... I, for one, am not impressed.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Do you see a connection there?

 

[shesulsa]

Sure. Everyone sees what they're comfortable seeing and what they want to see. Truth is perspective. And the myth that science is king.

 

[mrhnau]

Sure. Everyone sees what they're comfortable seeing and what they want to see. Truth is perspective. And the myth that science is king.

So if the guy does not believe in accupuncture, he can't possibly be correct about global warming? Trying to see the connection here, but I'm missing it. Could I possibly make the opposite claim, that if someone does believe in accupuncture, they can't possibly be correct about global warming? Truth is perspective of course...

sorry, I'm missing the connection.

 

[michaeledward]

Mr. Stossel made a claim about those who believe in Global Warming are "all socialists". Connect that, if you can?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Global warming has happened before, it is happening now and it will happen again. Same goes for global cooling, just it is not happening now…. I wonder if Climatologists and archeologists are a socialist and if they do or do not believe in acupuncture?

Global warming can be brought on by causes we cannot control and causes we can. CO2 emissions we can control, Earth axis and orbit we cannot.

If Glaciers are melting globally (and they are) it is warmer. So global warming is a fact. However what is causing it is what the debate should be about. Not whether or not it is happening because it is. And by the way, I am not a Socialist, but I do believe that acupuncture works… whatever that means.

 

[crushing]

Global warming can be brought on by causes we cannot control and causes we can. CO2 emissions we can control, Earth axis and orbit we cannot.

I thought global warming stopped when the last major ice age ended and those hair-spraying SUV-driving whooly mammoths went extinct!

Also, I don't understand the introduction of Stossel to this thread. Does he hold more sway than a career politician?

Seriously though, cleaning up our act as humans, and being good stewards of our planet should NOT be dependent on the significance of our contribution to changing weather patterns.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I thought global warming stopped when the last major ice age ended and those hair-spraying SUV-driving whooly mammoths went extinct!.

No actually although many believe that it was all the fault of wholly mammoths it was actually the fault of the Cadillac driving Saber-toothed cats and their bathroom cleaner.

Seriously though, cleaning up our act as humans, and being good stewards of our planet should NOT be dependent on the significance of our contribution to changing weather patterns.

Agreed

 

[michaeledward]

My offer still stands ... I'll pay for you (martialtalk member) to see this movie ... Send me your ticket stub ... I cover the cost of the movie plus two bucks.

I just replaced a bunch of incandecent bulbs in my home with compact flourescent bulbs. They're cheap, they're bright, and they convert much more electrical energy to light energy. Also, they generate much less heat than an incandescent bulb (We can appreciate that today in our house).

This bulb can be estimated to save $10.00 per year.
(5 hours per day - $0.08 per kWh - 100 wt incandescent cost $14.56 @ vs 25 wt Flourescent cost $3.68)

Shop here .... www.efi.org

 

[Rich Parsons]

My offer still stands ... I'll pay for you (martialtalk member) to see this movie ... Send me your ticket stub ... I cover the cost of the movie plus two bucks.

I just replaced a bunch of incandecent bulbs in my home with compact flourescent bulbs. They're cheap, they're bright, and they convert much more electrical energy to light energy. Also, they generate much less heat than an incandescent bulb (We can appreciate that today in our house).

This bulb can be estimated to save $10.00 per year.
(5 hours per day - $0.08 per kWh - 100 wt incandescent cost $14.56 @ vs 25 wt Flourescent cost $3.68)

Shop here .... www.efi.org

Staying with SOTA (* State of the Art *) is a good way of helping to save money. This also includes ones' furnace and stove and refridgerator, etcetera.

 

[michaeledward]

Quite often, unfortunately, State of the Art, translates into status symbol purchases, because of the additional premium for the 'new' stuff .... an common example is the Prius, isn't it?

I am fortunate enough to have replaced a refridgerator two or three years back with an Energy Star rated device, however, it carried more than a 10% premium over a similar non-ES rated appliance. My Natural Gas Furnace (a Lennox Conservator 90) has a very high efficiency rating was purchased three or four years back, but it carried a considerable premium over other, less efficient models.

The light bulb shown above costs $1.50. Any premium from a standard incandescent will be recouped in the first several months of usage. And the initial costs is not beyond the ability of any consumer who has need of a new illumination device.

 

[Fluffy]

I've read through most of the thread and took a visit to the website. I've gone from "O-God, another rant from the former vice-prez" to "Maybe I should at least watch".

I think I'll do so.

 

[michaeledward]

This just in . . .

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/climate/2006-07-14-2006-warmth_x.htm?csp=34

The Associated Press
The first half of the year was the warmest on record for the USA.
. . .
The government reported Friday that the average temperature for the 48 contiguous United States from January through June was 51.8°F, or 3.4°F above average for the 20th century.
That made it the warmest such period since recordkeeping began in 1895

Co-incidences continue.