An age-old weapon combat question

[pdb]

Hi there,
I'm a newbie, and not much of a martial artist, I'll admit - but I have a question that has been the source of constant argument with my brother. This forum, and you, the experts who write on it, are my only hope of ever resolving the question.

Who would win, in a fight between a man with two short swords, and a man with a staff?


Obviously, it's a simplistic question - but would one, on average, beat the other more often than not?
(let's assume that:the staff could not be broken or cut; and the swords are gladius-length (ie 40cm))
Many many thanks for any light you might be able to shed.
best wishes,
pdb

Many thanks

 

[tshadowchaser]

As with any question like this it depends on the combatents skill levels and there desire to survive, as well as maybe a little bit of luck.

 

[theletch1]

First off, welcome to MT. In answer to your question, yes, it is an age old question that has been beaten to death on many a forum. Generally, though, the question is staged as "Which martial art is better? A or B?" and the answer is always the same...depends on the practitioner and a thousand other variables. Here's just one of the many threads on this forum that deal with that similar scenario of which weapon is better.

 

[tellner]

The guy with the staff, definitely. He can get them to do the fighting or at least tire the swordsman out

 

[arnisador]

A better question might be, which would you rather be--the person with two swords, or the one with a staff? On theory I think I should prefer the staff, due to the reach...in practice it's hard to pass on two edged weapons. On balance I think I'd likely take the staff if it was a six-foot, solid but not too heavy to move quickly weapon. Reach matters, just as in boxing.

 

[theletch1]

The guy with the staff, definitely. He can get them to do the fighting or at least tire the swordsman out

That's just too punny!:ultracool

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Does this question involve a video game?

 

[Bigshadow]

Who would win, in a fight between a man with two short swords, and a man with a staff?

The one with the most skill.

 

[pdb]

Many thanks for all the answers! I'm already beginning to put together some evidence to end this argument with my brother once and for all

My apologies, I realise it was a totally oversimplified question - but Arnisador put my question much more clearly (many thanks):

Which would you rather be, the person with the staff or the two short swords?

Many thanks for any insights/opinions/thoughts!

(Anyone who knows of any analogies from martial arts would be great, too - bo staff vs two wakizashis? anything from Krabi-Krabong?)
(Tellner - very punny! yeah, if my employees couldn't break or be cut, I'd definitely send -them- to face the guy wielding swords akimbo. )

 

[ArmorOfGod]

A lot of oral tradition maintains that Muso Gonnosuke Katsuyoshi once fought Miyamoto Musashi, one of the most famous swordsmen of the time and author of the Book of Five Rings, with a staff in a training match and was defeated by Musashi’s cross-block technique.

According to some legends, Gonnosuke went into selusion and shortened and thinned the staff to what we know now as the jo staff. It is said that there is a record at Tsukuba Shrine, that reports that Gonnosuke was able to defeat Musashi in a rematch. This story is not recorded elsewhere and may not be factual.

AoG

 

[jks9199]

Many thanks for all the answers! I'm already beginning to put together some evidence to end this argument with my brother once and for all

My apologies, I realise it was a totally oversimplified question - but Arnisador put my question much more clearly (many thanks):

Which would you rather be, the person with the staff or the two short swords?

Many thanks for any insights/opinions/thoughts!

(Anyone who knows of any analogies from martial arts would be great, too - bo staff vs two wakizashis? anything from Krabi-Krabong?)
(Tellner - very punny! yeah, if my employees couldn't break or be cut, I'd definitely send -them- to face the guy wielding swords akimbo. )

Here's a simple approach...

Take a wooden stave, and give your brother two wooden swords.

Find out who's still standing.

Then, to make sure it wasn't a fluke -- trade weapons, and do it again!

 

[Blindside]

Which would you rather be, the person with the staff or the two short swords?

Many thanks for any insights/opinions/thoughts!
)

I study kali, so I'm two short swords is not exactly unfamiliar territory, that said, give me the staff, particularly in the 6-7 foot range. Why a staff though? Give me a spear any day. That said, a thrust by a 1.5 inch diameter hardwood staff is nothing to sneer at.

 

[thardey]

I study kali, so I'm two short swords is not exactly unfamiliar territory, that said, give me the staff, particularly in the 6-7 foot range. Why a staff though? Give me a spear any day. That said, a thrust by a 1.5 inch diameter hardwood staff is nothing to sneer at.

Yeah, a 7' spear would be an advantage over two short swords. Not as sure about the staff, though. I've been trained with swords, so I'd be more comfortable with those.

What about escrima sticks vs. staff? Anybody had any experience with that?

 

[kaizasosei]

out of my mind or out to kill, i would take the blades which i consider to be more deadly. if i were just defending myself, i would be more comfortable with the stick. assuming the sword is for slashing and stabbing whereas the stick for hitting is less likely to be lethal.

defensive vs. offensive. -basically typically, i feel the swords are really offensive, morally speaking.
also i think the bo being long and strurdy could be a very decent defensive weapon.
having two blades would also further even out the reach disadvantage. able to crossblock or parry and attack at the same time.





j

 

[kaizasosei]

sorry doubling.

anyone ever see the traditional african stick fights...- there is such an event...those stickfights are brutal. they swing these huge bo-sized sticks at full speed. sometimes, people die,- i saw it on tv.. nowadays not only from the fight injuries, there are some that bring guns and turn up the heat as soon as their buddies get downed or something.

from what i saw, it did not seem to me to be overtly skillfull or controlled. but it got 5 stars for realism..

so if someone started to swing the stick that hard, the knives might be able to reach them first. so landing a single lethal blow with the stick would be unlikely unless maybe in the hands of an expert.

 

[arnisador]

anyone ever see the traditional african stick fights...- there is such an event...those stickfights are brutal. they swing these huge bo-sized sticks at full speed. sometimes, people die,- i saw it on tv.. nowadays not only from the fight injuries, there are some that bring guns and turn up the heat as soon as their buddies get downed or something.

from what i saw, it did not seem to me to be overtly skillfull or controlled. but it got 5 stars for realism..

The Zulu stickfighting looks pretty neat, but it always seemed too formal and controlled to me! It's too ritualistic.

 

[jks9199]

out of my mind or out to kill, i would take the blades which i consider to be more deadly. if i were just defending myself, i would be more comfortable with the stick. assuming the sword is for slashing and stabbing whereas the stick for hitting is less likely to be lethal.

defensive vs. offensive. -basically typically, i feel the swords are really offensive, morally speaking.
also i think the bo being long and strurdy could be a very decent defensive weapon.
having two blades would also further even out the reach disadvantage. able to crossblock or parry and attack at the same time.





j

:soapbox::tantrum:
Rant alert...
"More deadly." Exactly what is more dead than dead? Does that mean you'll do first aid, CPR, and bring 'em back to life, only to kill him with the second sword?

Both staff and sword are deadly weapons. So is a baseball bat, a machete, a hammer, a gun, a bow & arrow, and lots, lots more.

Treat 'em that way when you train with them, when you train against them, and when you think about them.

The preferred term of art today for tools like the Taser, pepper spray, rubber bullets/beanbags or other extended range kinetic energy devices and batons today is "less lethal", not "less than lethal." I don't like it -- but it's an improvement. Because any or all of them have the potential to cause death, in the right circumstances. They are not as likely to to do so, but they still can. Or create a circumstance that causes death.

Sorry for the rant. We now return to the previously scheduled thread.

 

[kaizasosei]

yeah i know what you mean. but i still feel that a blade is more worrysome.
sure any madman could kill with a stick.. but it would most likely take many hits.

have to say that i didn't check out all the links to african stickfighting, but they were not what i meant. the tribes i saw on tv were called moro. it doesnt do it justice. i mean, the zulu stick fighting clips were far more controlled and seemed like any ma practice. the moro stick fighting on the other hand is pure violence. the two opponents are trying to floor each other by swinging the huge sticks fullout.

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] Nuba Stick Fighting[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] One of the famous Nuba traditions, well-known from the pictures of George Rodger and Leni Riefenstahl, is stick-fighting. This is rarely practised today. One of the Nuba tribes most well-known for stick fighting is the Moro.

The Moro area, which is located half-way between Kadugli and Talodi, is occupied by the Moro tribe one of the largest tribes in the Nuba Mountains . The Moro people maintain and practice very ancient traditions as long as they live. There is no way that these traditions , as part of their ancestral heritage, be abandoned. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] The stick-fighting is a contest conducted by, as the name indicates, a stick and a shield between two contestants, This sport is always carried out at the end of autumn and the beginning of harvest, and it is completely forbidden during the cultivation season, in case it puts the youths off their work. Stick fighting is part of the ceremonies that follow the harvest, in which thanks is given to God for providing a good harvest. It is embedded in the spiritual traditions of the people.[/FONT]

 

[kaizasosei]

wouldn't you agree that a very sharp blade is more dangerous or deadly than a dull blade. not that one can't kill with almost any object, but i quick stab to a kidney throat, inner theigh, inner knee, armpit or abdomen could mean bleeding to death quickly. similar with slashes to the hands and arms. a cut to the forhead could be blinding. don't forget, having two swords, one can be thrown if absolutely necessary.
you can get stabbed without much damage if lucky and respond well. you can also get hit by stick without breaking any bones or sustaining any major injury. but in this case for myself, i would choose the less bloody whatever the case...open cuts from hard strikes bleed the same as knifecuts though normally not as much.

if i did not plan on killing or at least treating very harshly, i would never seriously threaten someone with a blade. i even disdain resorting to blades as selfdefense methods. because the blade in your hand means that you are ready to kill or maim-ultimately spilling blood. and i think musashi said that if you pick up a sword you must be ready to use it and kill or else be killed. if need to use blade, if possible don't show it. just use it at the right time.

bottom line- it may be oversimplified but basically in my mind, stick=beating whereas blade=death.
would you choose to beat someone up with a sword-two swords?? i think that would be unwise as well as impractical.



j

 

[Langenschwert]

wouldn't you agree that a very sharp blade is more dangerous or deadly than a dull blade.

Perhaps, but a dull blade is still perfectly capable of decapitating someone. A good hit with a 6' staff is as likely to end a fight as well as a sword blow.

Generally speaking, in unarmoured weapon combat, whoever lands the first hit is likely to win, even if it's not immediately lethal. It gives you the opening to hit with that lethal blow.

For historical context, the great George Silver reckoned the staff most useful for personal combat. Either that or the Bill, I think. At any rate, he really liked long hafted weapons.

All these questions boil down to this: The better fighter will win. More specifically, the one who knows his own AND his opponent's weapons best, and who knows the other combatant's strengths and weaknesses best, and the one who's switched on enough that day to make the most out of his advantages, whatever they are.

Best regards,

-Mark