An Academic Bill of Rights?

[Rich Parsons]

I wish students would argue more. But the fact is, students generally are all too busy trying to slide through for a grade, or budy trying to find out what the professor wants them to say so they can parrot it back, or busy trying to sound just like everybody else.

And as was mentioned, the real point of this is to attack professors--a college student who can't risk a whole GRADE to stand up for their beliefs is pretty pathetic, given that students all over the world risk their lives to get into a classroom, let alone stand up for anything.

Hm. What it suggests, come to think of it, is that a lot of neo-conservatives are essentially gutless.

I had some instructors who enjoyed those who would argue with them only to prove them WRONG and call them stupid or an idiot.

It got so bad in one class, that no one would argue with the instructor until I gave my opinion and or comments. He did not scare me, nor did he control my life, for when he started failing me, I asked for an independant review of my work. He then asked why I was always so disrespectful to him in class. I replied I was not, I just would logically come up with the answer and make my case. I also replied that he was out to show his superior intellect, by showing the students that the obvious answer is not always the correct answer. From Day one, we had problems, yet by the end, he asked me not to reply, unless he specifically called upon me.

As to gutless, I have seen it in all types including those who teach, and those who study and those who administrate, . . .

 

[arnisador]

Ah, thanks. Tell the truth, most of the professors I've met are usually dying for their students to argue with them, at least from undergrad anyway.

Absolutely!

On another point, how would anonymous grading work? A separate prof. grades work that is identified only by Student ID No.?

 

[arnisador]

As to gutless, I have seen it in all types including those who teach, and those who study and those who administrate, . . .

Yup. The suggestion to go to the dept. head, then dean, makes sense. They're almost always cowards who will cave, but it's right for other reasons too. I did it as an undergrad. once with great effect.

I've had to ask students to not ask/answer questions in class sometimes when they've been so far ahead of the others that they distract from the other students' experiences. It's unfortunate, but sometimes necessary.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Yup. The suggestion to go to the dept. head, then dean, makes sense. They're almost always cowards who will cave, but it's right for other reasons too. I did it as an undergrad. once with great effect.

Yes, it is the proper flow, for you see if you follow the chain of command then no matter what happens, you will have peoples respect for following the process, and trying to be adult like, versus a spoiled child like student. The student is forced to present their case in a simple logical issue, and not be emotional about it.

I've had to ask students to not ask/answer questions in class sometimes when they've been so far ahead of the others that they distract from the other students' experiences. It's unfortunate, but sometimes necessary.

I have a feeling that the way you treated it would have been 1000% (* yes one thousand *) better, I have had no problems with not answering, as this was modus operandi in HS and College, after a while I would raise my hand and the instrutor would not call on me to give others a chance, and or to get a partial answer so he could continue his education process. I was not insulted in these cases, and bought the clue, so when an instructor would ask if "Anyone" know I would raise my hand. I learned from the in class feedback, but in the case above that instructor was a person who enjoyed making the students look ignorant or stupid. And I enjoyed making him look foolish. Yes petty, but, enjoyable. All he had to do was treat me with the simple respect of a student and not some follower who had to be there, and it would have been much better. All the other classes, went fine, as my other data points for reference.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Absolutely!

On another point, how would anonymous grading work? A separate prof. grades work that is identified only by Student ID No.?

Simple. Admissions office has the record of which students get what BAGS numbers. Student comes to the admissions office to get the BAGS number, puts it on their assignment, and hands the assignment into the faculty support office. Professor picks up the assignments at the F.S.O., and is not allowed access to the admission's office's records of who got what BAGS number. Reverse the process up to the point that student receives the assignment for returning it. That's how it works at my law school.

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, as somebody who actually teaches, the whole, 'anonymous grading,' thing might be fine for law school (though methinks they damn sure don't do that at, say, Harvard), but it's absurd for undergrads and wouldn't make any sense for grad students. A prof who's any good WANTS to respond to individuals--and our society is anonymous enough as it is.

I also have to say that while I certainly understand that there are bad profs--hell, from time to time I screw up and I AM one--the thing to do is not some ******** legislation of everything in the classroom. That's just a repressive fantasy of scientific teaching (you can TRAIN people scientifically, but you can't TEACH them that way), and--as the earlier portions of this thread point out--right-wing repression.

Then there are two other questions: a) what's up with students, and b) what's up with class society.

As a student in college and grad school, I argued all the time. Mostly, I was rewarded for it--and ya know what? part of my education was in learning how to cope with jerks who knew things I wanted to know. It never occurred to me to start yakking about this professor's manners or that professor's manners (a little late, it dawned on me that I'd had a couple of profs who treated women students badly, but that's a different issue), because I had the wacky idea that they knew things I didn't, and I was there to shaddup sometimes and learn what they knew. Kinda like in martial arts.

Speaking of martial arts, here's something I learned: much of the yakking, the questioning, the complaining, the fantasizing about teachers comes straight out of the student's unconscious. Part of you doesn't WANT to learn, because that means changing, and it will seize on any defense mechanism it can to stay the same as it is. When you yak, when you obsess on the teacher's personality (about which you really don't know all that much), you are protecting yourself from learning. You are very likely fantasizing.

And when you're not, when there's a real problem, stand up and go talk to the guy privately. Or make a complaint if necessary.

Mostly, though--as in martial arts--shut the hell up and do the work. The teacher knows more than you do, or you need to find another school or at least another teacher. And it's not the worst thing in the world--provided that the teacher knows their subject really well--if from time to time, you find yourself as a student stuck with just shutting up and taking notes like crazy.

As a corrective to this, see Roland Barthes, "Writers, Intellectuals, teachers."

The second point has to do with political repression in class society. Guess what? it isn't the upper class schools where students fuss themselves like this with their teachers. There, it's the same old thing: learn to deal with it, as you're going to have to learn to deal with reality. And go out to some cool place, have a beer or three, and ***** about the man's inadequate handling of, say, macroeconomic theory.

Most of this pc, "the student is as wise as the teacher," crap hits the community colleges and the state schools. I wouldn't mind if it were genuinely coming out of, say, feminist critiques of the classroom--but it's not. It's just another way of crippling students who don't have a lot of money, of giving them a lesser education under the guise of helping them.

And above all, give up the idea that every bonehead who thumps the Bible, the Koran or whatever knows as much about science and nature as an actual biologist. Give up the fantasy that every twit who's read the Cliff Notes, looked at the "Classics Illustrated," comic, and skimmed the first chaper of, "Moby-Dick; Or, The Whale," has as much to say about Herman Melville as somebody who's been stupid enough to devote, say, 10-15 years to studying American lit and another 10-15 to writing, teaching and getting tenured.

This is the student's fantasy, as much as it is the teacher's problem. Now if you want a discussion of all the things that ARE really wrong with the teaching profession, I'm your guy.

 

[tsdclaflin]

It got so bad in one class, that no one would argue with the instructor...

Thanks for the insight. It seems that your experience cuts to the heart of the matter.

At the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest, did any of you who commented actually look at the text of the legislation? The link was provided at the end of the Alligator article. It seems that all of you to date just accepted and echoed the opinion of the editorial article.

Rich had the guts to stand up for himself. But what about other students? Do professors have the right to ridicule and humiliate students that disagree? Are professors gods in their own right? I don't think so. Students should be guaranteed the freedom to take courses at public universities without getting their rights tromped on.

I read the bill, and I'm not sure that I agree with all the provisions or the language of it, but I am certainly in favor of protecting our students rights from people who abuse their positions of authority. It's not much different that sexual harrassment laws, hate crime laws, and other protections of citizens (sexual preference, race, etc, etc, etc).

Viva Freedom of expression!!!

 

[rmcrobertson]

Yes, I looked it up. It's imbecilic.

I also looked up its sponsor, Mr. Baxley--a State college and Community college grad (in embalming!) who's done much for the rights of funderal home directors and airboaters throughout Florida.

Hey, here's three big surprises: State Sen. Baxley is: a) a Baptist; b) an ex-president of his local Rotary Club, c) the sponsor of the latest legislation to remove Mrs. Schiavo from her husband's guardianship. Sinclair Lewis woulda loved this guy.

Less hilariously, he's linked to David Horowitz's, "there's a Commie under every bed!" campaign--which is where this stupid little Bill comes from.

As a student, you already have rights. Of arguing back, provided you have some clue of what you're talking about; of being treated fairly; of complaining if nothing else helps. Check the AAUP guidelines, or those in the course catalogue of every college there is.

What you do NOT have the right to is what Sen Baxley's demanding: the right to demand that your profs teach only ideas you approve of, and that they include every unsubstantiated, dimwit notion that students come up with.

I've had students tell me, in class, that: a) Catholics aren't Christians; b) Jews secretly run America; c) there weren't anything LIKE six million Jews killed by Hitler; d) gay people are all sick; e) evolution can't be true because apes don't turn into people and anyway there are no fossils showing evolution in process; f) we never landed on the moon.

Under this Bill, I could be sued for so much as staring at them like they were nuts, let alone saying, "Sorry, that's just not true...please look this up, and we'll discuss it next class."

The good senator has a bug up there about leftists. IF you look at his website, that's exactly what it says: schools have been over-run by Commies (would that that were true!), and he wants them shut down.

You can say whetever you want in a college class. You just need to be a little polite, and have a clue about the facts. You have all sorts of rights, if your profs hassle you unfairly.

But guess what. Students are often ignorant as hell. They're there to learn; if they don't want to, well, Bob Jones University is always looking for students.

 

[ginshun]

Hm. What it suggests, come to think of it, is that a lot of neo-conservatives are essentially gutless.

Yup, I am sure that you encourage being open with your beliefes and epitomize being politically non-judgemental in your classes.

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, yes. And second, I simply identify it as as judgement, when I think that such judgments would be helpful. My sugestion would be that you simply learn to argue better, and to find out things for yourself, rather than getting petulant about the whole thing.

Part of the problem here too, is that students--and some faculty--have come to think of themselves as producers and consumers. Therefore, students believe that, "the customer is always right." And teachers worry about product.

It's to be expected, in capitalist society. And it's expected especially in the schools that more and more serve the working class, since the way things are going, the general assumption seems to be that such students don't need a real education--just a good thorough indoctrination and some skills.

What that Bill is really all about is forcing teachers to parrot a Rotary Club past-president and embalmer's values. And no others.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I'm going to agree with robertson that more and more, I am witnessing a "consumer" mentality with students that is actually really detrimental to their education (I think). I have had students quite plainly tell me that their parents paid for their education, therefore they were "paying" for A's! I was stunned - the jaw-dropping, everything. I have taught for several years now, and some students - most students - do fine. They do well, or don't do well, some ask for additional help (which is always available), some seem happy squeaking by and not coming to class more than taking the exams.

But some students use this idea of their "rights" to argue that 1) they deserve an A just because they put in a few hours of effort. ("I feel that I worked hard and deserve an A" has been said to be so often - always by the students who study about 2 hours/week, miss classes, try to get by on the minimum, etc.) or 2) they don't feel like covering the material presented in class.

Students of course *do* have rights - rights to be treated fairly, to be graded on the content of their assignments, to be respected regardless of gender, race, creed, nationality, etc. These rights already exist.

This proposed bill is a threat to teachers and to academic freedoms, IMHO. We should be able to have *some* people working on intellectual and academic issues regardless of the moment-to-moment political sway of the country. That's what's behind the idea of tenure.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Personally, I find it appalling that students expect an A "because their parents are paying for it". My elder son worked his butt off and graduated magna cum laude, and we were quite proud of him and his effort (and rightly so, I'd say.) So, does that mean we 'expected' A-s in all his classes? No, we 'expected' him to attend class, do his assigned work, sit for his exams, and do the best he could do. That he happened to excel is his own doing, not our pressuring of him. And, he's paying off his student loans. Nothing like putting yourself through school to make *one* want (read: need) to excel in order to justify *one's* "investment".

 

[michaeledward]

My wife just pointed out this article on the subject. I had previously skipped over this thread for no apparent reason.


http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0328-30.htm

This article was written by a Philosoph Professor in a Florida College. It is an interesting read.

I am beginning to think that these students were not spanked enough as children. They, apparently, never learned that at times it is appropriate to be seen and not heard.

Another student demanded to take over my class. I swear I’m not making this up.

A conservative student actually tried to push me aside at the beginning of class, dressed for the occasion in his tie and suit, with a digital camera, to deliver his Thou SHALL Kill presentation. It never occurred to him to discuss his proposal with me after class or during my office hours. He simply presumed that he was at equal status with the teacher, and that he has the “Academic Freedom” to take up precious class time with his flaky opinions on interpreting the word “kill” in the 6th Commandment. I explained that students are paying to learn from an accredited teacher with degrees in philosophy/humanities. They’re not paying to hear HIS opinions. The test will be on Plato. He stormed out of the class and then dropped out the next day.