American King George II wants MORE private info ...

I'm still trying to figure out why making prisoners eat MRE's was considered torture... does that mean we are torturing our own servicemen and women?

Starving them over the course of weeks may be torture, but not serving gourmet meals? Whats next, its torture if we dont leave a mint on their pillow and fold the clean towels in the shape of a swan?

Gimme a ****ing break.
​
 
Why does Colin Powell hate America?

Why does John Warner hate America?

Why does Lindsey Graham hate America?

Why does John McCain hate America?




Seems to me, if Article III of the Geneva Conventions are good enough for them, (and have been good enough for the country for 60 years) they certainly should be good enough for the military.


Of course, if the CIA has already violated these articles, what better way to deal with it than to change the law after the fact.
 
michaeledward said:
Why does Colin Powell hate America?

Why does John Warner hate America?

Why does Lindsey Graham hate America?

Why does John McCain hate America?




Seems to me, if Article III of the Geneva Conventions are good enough for them, (and have been good enough for the country for 60 years) they certainly should be good enough for the military.
Click to expand...

Obviously they do not hate America and this is the "Appeal to authority" logical fallacy.

I served in the military too, same as Technopunk and others on this side of the debate. (As an aside- I do happen to think making people MREs is a war crime having eaten quite a few myself.:barf: ) You don't see him, I or others try to say that we have more of a say in the matter than folks like yourself that have never served. (Have you?)

It is a matter of debate. We should lay out the different points and see the merits and faults with both sides of the issue rather than just say that certain people have a certain position and no one else should dare disagree with them. I respect all of the people you listed, but I don't have to agree with everything they say.
 
I think that people need to consider EVERYTHING in Article 4 before making comments about Article 3.

From http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm



[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Article 4[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica](a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica](b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica](c) That of carrying arms openly;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica](d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.[/FONT]


It's pretty simple to me. The ones being held do not honor Article 4. Therefore, they do not get to claim Article 3 benefits and protections.
 
fu bag!

You stop making sense right this minute!

There is no room for logic in political bikering.

You must cease and desist at once!

This is your only warning. After this you will be forced to sleep on rayon sheets - no cotton - and eat MRE's for six weeks.


lol
 
tradrockrat,

LOL!!!!!! Damn! I'm busted!!! A subtitle for your post could've been titled "How Military Wives Get Kinky"!!

p.s. My wife was snort laughing when she read your post!!!


Fu Bag
 
Fu_Bag said:
tradrockrat,

LOL!!!!!! Damn! I'm busted!!! A subtitle for your post could've been titled "How Military Wives Get Kinky"!!

p.s. My wife was snort laughing when she read your post!!!


Fu Bag
Click to expand...

Glad I could be of service... :D
 
Fu_Bag said:
It's pretty simple to me. The ones being held do not honor Article 4. Therefore, they do not get to claim Article 3 benefits and protections.
Click to expand...

Which makes it perfectly okay to torture them...
 
upnorthkyosa said:
Which makes it perfectly okay to torture them...
Click to expand...

If you are worried about breaking the Geneva convention and having our soldiers tortured in turn....yes. They do not apply in this case as I thought.

Now, if you are worried about us becoming what we fight as Shesulsa and others have talked about, then we need to keep within things that do not leave mental or physical scars and that we do out own soldiers- like eat MREs.
 
Just give them the peanut butter and crackers out of the MRE's for a week or two. That'll get anyone talking.

Jeff
 
JeffJ said:
Just give them the peanut butter and crackers out of the MRE's for a week or two. That'll get anyone talking.

Jeff
Click to expand...


Hey now, I'd take those peanut butter and crackers over a dehydrated pork patty any day. Especially if I scored some cocoa mix to put in the peanut butter. Been there, done that. :)
 
Not being well versed in the Geneva Convention, military rules and regulations, or in the quality of MRE's I do have my own point of view.

Take what I have to say with a grain of salt because I've stopped paying close attention to the whole thing, because it's too convoluted for me to follow.


As far as I'm concerned torture is wrong, regardless of how badly we need the information, and I doubt many here would disagree. Some things like sleep depravation while not exactly pleasant I don’t have too big of a problem with, provided the individual's health is not permanently affected. As far as physical trauma, ect I think it's just wrong. I see two reasons why it shouldn't be tolerated. First and foremost, is that when word of even alleged torture gets out it gives all kinds of provocation to our enemies (not that they need any further provocation, but hey lets not fuel the fire). Secondly, these individuals being held are held on US bases (even if they are undisclosed locations). Now if I understand things correctly more or less a US base is somewhat considered US soil. While a military base is subject to its own rules and laws, it is still subject to other national laws (i.e. the Constitution). Anyone who comes to our country is under the protection of said laws regardless of their citizenship. Should this not also apply to POW's taken in for questioning? Again I haven't the foggiest idea of the true legalities of how it all works, but this makes sense in my head. Perhaps those that are/have been in the service can shed some light.


In short torture shouldn’t be tolerated or even considered as policy given that it violates rights granted by the Constitution. How hypocritical is it to claim to hold human rights as a corner stone of our way of life and to turn around and deny those rights to a people we are trying to 'help'?


Secondly... as to Technopunk's question about giving prisoner's MRE's as torture... perhaps the MRE contained food that they are prohibited from eating by their religion.... just a thought.



Again take my post with a grain of salt because I haven't been keeping up with it. I know I should, as a citizen it’s my duty to be informed, but it's hard to see past the political spin and see the facts as they truly are.
 
upnorthkyosa said:
Which makes it perfectly okay to torture them...
Click to expand...

If you say so. :) Seriously though, what do you suggest we do to get the information? Make them wear a burqua all day in sweltering heat? Do something to their genitalia so that sex won't be enjoyable for them? Force them into a lower position in the world? Stone them? Create materials that show how to beat them without leaving marks or breaking them "too badly" to be able to do the work befitting to them - slavery? Maybe even an honor killing or two?

You could make them wear panties, bark like a dog, eat MRE rations they object to, put them in a zippered leather mask and spank them like the bad boys and girls that they are, and none of it will be worse than what they subject others to. Does this mean we shouldn't torture them? Well, I don't know. Maybe the solution is to leave them helpless in a room filled with well equipped, formerly oppressed, women from their country and see what information they have to offer then?

I don't have the answer. If you do, I'd be willing to listen. The only qualifier is that whatever you say can only be pertaining to methods of gathering the information that is needed. Is that fair?

Fu Bag :)
 
Fu_Bag said:
If you say so. :) Seriously though, what do you suggest we do to get the information? Make them wear a burqua all day in sweltering heat? Do something to their genitalia so that sex won't be enjoyable for them? Force them into a lower position in the world? Stone them? Create materials that show how to beat them without leaving marks or breaking them "too badly" to be able to do the work befitting to them - slavery? Maybe even an honor killing or two?

You could make them wear panties, bark like a dog, eat MRE rations they object to, put them in a zippered leather mask and spank them like the bad boys and girls that they are, and none of it will be worse than what they subject others to. Does this mean we shouldn't torture them? Well, I don't know. Maybe the solution is to leave them helpless in a room filled with well equipped, formerly oppressed, women from their country and see what information they have to offer then?

I don't have the answer. If you do, I'd be willing to listen. The only qualifier is that whatever you say can only be pertaining to methods of gathering the information that is needed. Is that fair?

Fu Bag :)
Click to expand...

There's just one little snag in your suggestions, Fu Bag....

Torture is not and never has been an efficient means of "gathering the information". Its proponents simply assume that it is, but science does not back up their presumptions. I suspect psychological inertia, as well as a subconscious desire for bloodlust and revenge, is the reason why torture is still practiced in modern societies.

Have a good one.
 
heretic888 said:
There's just one little snag in your suggestions, Fu Bag....

Torture is not and never has been an efficient means of "gathering the information". Its proponents simply assume that it is, but science does not back up their presumptions. I suspect psychological inertia, as well as a subconscious desire for bloodlust and revenge, is the reason why torture is still practiced in modern societies.

Have a good one.
Click to expand...


Heretic,

I don't necessarily disagree with you. It sounds like you have some knowledge to share regarding a non-violent alternative for gathering the information. How would a scientist gather the information from such people?


Fu Bag :)
 
Again..it all comes down to definitions "torture" a la "beating it out of him" may not be efficient. Techniques like lighting, feeding times, uncomfortable positioning may very well be. Those of a specific political leaning seem to think anything more than nice questioning with their lawyers present is "torture". Again I say that a good interrogator doesnt just "torture in the blind"...he will have other data that will verify whatever he is getting.
 
Blotan Hunka said:
Again..it all comes down to definitions "torture" a la "beating it out of him" may not be efficient. Techniques like lighting, feeding times, uncomfortable positioning may very well be. Those of a specific political leaning seem to think anything more than nice questioning with their lawyers present is "torture". Again I say that a good interrogator doesnt just "torture in the blind"...he will have other data that will verify whatever he is getting.
Click to expand...


"torture in the blind"???!!!! Uh Oh..... I'd certainly hope an interrogator wouldn't do that. That almost sounds like it'd be the INTERROGATOR with the panties on their head rather than the VICTIM!!!! Yeah, now it makes more sense to me. We just need to be really careful so that the wrong person doesn't end up with panties on their head. I could see where that'd be a disaster!!! ;) It's nice that we've found a peaceful resolution to that one.


Fu Bag :D



p.s. The above is meant to be humorous in nature.
 
heretic888 said:
There's just one little snag in your suggestions, Fu Bag....

Torture is not and never has been an efficient means of "gathering the information". Its proponents simply assume that it is, but science does not back up their presumptions. I suspect psychological inertia, as well as a subconscious desire for bloodlust and revenge, is the reason why torture is still practiced in modern societies.

Have a good one.
Click to expand...

But, Heretic ... didn't you hear ...

the CIA took custody of Mr. Al-Libi from the FBI, then they rendered him to Egypt - where he was fed milk and cookies every day - as they were shoving red-hot pokers into all his orafices.

He told Mr. Tenet about these neat Mobile Bio-Weapon Labratories in tractor trailers and rail cars in Iraq... He said that Hussein had at least 7 of these death machines.

Who says you can't get good information from torture ... oh, wait ...

..... never mind .....


P.S. Since you guys are all lovey touchy on this treatment ... and since you seem to believe that all that is being discussed is eating MRE's and listening to the Red Hot Chili Peppers ... any of you guys going to volunteer for the CIA to test their methods ... I noticed nobody is discussing Waterboarding? Did you do that in your training too guys?
 
What makes any of us believe that we can even figure out what the CIA's methods are? I would imagine that that information would be highly confidential.
 
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