am i over looking judo for real self defence?

[Laplace_demon]

Btw, I just googled Judo, and as predicted, the "sport schools" do not offer striking as part of their curriculum. I am well within my rights to dismiss it and anybody claiming the oppposite is not referring to the Judo I am talking about.

 

[ballen0351]

anybody claiming the oppposite is not referring to the Judo I am talking about.

LOL thats true were speaking of the actual Judo we learned not the made up Judo you pretend to be an expert of

 

[ballen0351]

Equal to someone training 50% striking? I very much doubt it, given that Judo is a grappling art.

LOL so 1st you say there is no striking now you say it is there but doesnt equal a striking art. Come on man stop changing your points. Its ok to be wrong just admit it and learn something

Goju Ryu has two branches of its modern schools. One is akin to modern shotokan, while the other is much tougher. Goju Ruy is really not saying a hole loth, unless this is clarified.

No Goju Ryu is Goju Ryu there are several different organizations But Goju Ryu as taught by Chojun Miyagi is Goju Ryu and one of the main principals is get in close we train it in almost everything we do.

 

[Laplace_demon]

LOL thats true were speaking of the actual Judo we learned not the made up Judo you pretend to be an expert of

I don't need to be an expert to know Boxing has no kicking, and sport judo has no striking. Don't be silly. I made it clear from the start which type of Judo I was referring to.

 

[Laplace_demon]

No Goju Ryu is Goju Ryu there are several different organizations But Goju Ryu as taught by Chojun Miyagi is Goju Ryu and one of the main principals is get in close we train it in almost everything we do.

I will quote from another forum: Not that simple. It depends where you go, some schools will teach you a style of goju that is more okinawan and more like kyokushin, or you may get the sort of style that Gunnar Nelson does with a side on stance more like shotokan. So it really depends

 

[ballen0351]

apparently I cant use the quote function right now so:
I don't need to be an expert to know Boxing has no kicking, and sport judo has no striking. Don't be silly. I made it clear from the start which type of Judo I was referring to.

That totally depends on the school, not the art of Judo itself. strikes are in the kata and are part of judo. they are not in competition but even some competition based schools still teach them. Where I train was a sport based program but they still taught strikes and other parts of judo that are banned from competitions

 

[Mephisto]

I am less exposed than attempting to throw someone. It's executed faster and causes more damage when done accurately. I can guard myself while executing the kick also.

I'd disagree, if both a kick and throw are completed successfully the throw has the potential to do much more damage. A successful kick can cause a ko, the opponent could possibly hit his head from the fall of the ko and die. A successful throw for the street will directly slam the opponent on his head guaranteeing a ko, severe injury and possible death. Even a more polite throw putting the opponent on his back can be very detrimental to someone who doesn't know how to fall. Either way a successful throw has much more potential for injury than a successful strike.

In 1993, all styles of martial arts were allowed to compete and Royce Gracie (BJJ) won. He fought a kickboxer/TKD guy, wrestler and won. People since that time believe, since the UFC is dominated by people from wrestling or BJJ backgrounds, that striking arts such as kickboxing, Muay Thai and TKD are inferior to grappling arts if you were to put them against each other.

I submit this is wrong and down to the individual. I have not heard of any prominent Tae Kwon Do fighter ever involved in a challenge match of style vs style. And by prominent I mean dedicated, techniqually honed practitioner in the art, signified by a 5th Dan achievement under a respectable organisation. Someone who one could label a grandmaster technique wise.

If having a 5th Dan were helpful to anyone in the ring we'd see more of it. Tkd masters are not some morally incorruptible class of fighters above competition. I'm sure you can find some high ranking guys in Olympic tkd competition. The problem is the lack of emphasis on leg kicks and use of hand techniques its a hole in the competitive game but that may be changing. But if you believe your instructor who says he could take this UFCs barbarians go ahead and believe him. Here's a fight where a very successfull kick boxer goes up against a Muay thai fighter. My point in posting it is to show that currently much of tkd lacks some important tools to make it more applicapable to the ring and reality. The emphasis of high kicks is risky on the street.

So, in 1993 the UFC (which is only one of many MMA promotions) had a style v style type of competition and therefore this means that Judo is not good for self defence?
Who are these people that believe striking is inferior to grappling arts because I will show you plenty of evidence that people believe the opposite. The truth is that the UFC and other promotions are dominated by those who will sell tickets when they fight. Fights rarely prove which style is better than another, they are about individuals fighting MMA not any one style, the fighters have to be entertaining and popular ( either for being good or for being the baddie people love to hate )now and I don't think any promotion/company does style versus style competitions anymore.

Please show your evidence that is opposite the the argument that grappling is superior. I wouldn't go so far as to say one is superior but I think if anything evidence shows just the opposite. You also sounds like you have MMA confused with WWE or whatever they call "professional wrestling" these days. Yes it's entertainment to a degree but these are legitimate fighters using the same proven formula for success.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I. A successful throw for the street will directly slam the opponent on his head guaranteeing a ko

Dear lord. You must be a judoka. How could you seriously post that a successful throw will gurantee the victim falls on his head? I have thrown guys doing full summersaults in the air, landing on their back, and getting up. He was slightly heavy set and had no trouble getting up both times.

 

[ballen0351]

I will qoute from another forum:

Well I actually train in Goju so I don't need a random quote from an unknown person on an unknown forum to form my opinion

Not that simple. It depends where you go, some schools will teach you a style of goju that is more okinawan

Goju is Okinawan there is no "more" Okinawan. Other then perhaps Goju Kai

and more like kyokushin, or you may get the sort of style that Gunnar Nelson does with a side on stance more like shotokan. So it really depends

Wait so some MMA fighter that stopped training Goju Ryu at the age of 16 now has his own "style" of Goju? Stop dude your making a fool of yourself now. Stop telling people that actually train in these style what is and isnt in their styles.


What do you train in?

 

[drop bear]

Dear lord. You must be a judoka. How could you seriously post that a successful throw will gurantee the victim falls on his head? I have thrown guys doing full summersaults in the air, landing on their back, and getting up. He was slightly heavy set and had no trouble getting up both times.

a successful throw will put a person on the ground. Which as you said a striker will then be in serious trouble.

why grappling tends to overcome striking is difficult to explain in logical terms a bit. Because it is not intuitive.

especially using ideas like a successful throw vs a successful punch.

the idea has come about through live testing. More than rational argument.

 

[ballen0351]

Dear lord. You must be a judoka. How could you seriously post that a successful throw will gurantee the victim falls on his head? I have thrown guys doing full summersaults in the air, landing on their back, and getting up. He was slightly heavy set and had no trouble getting up both times.

Full summersaults in the air huh WoW

 

[Tez3]

Please show your evidence that is opposite the the argument that grappling is superior. I wouldn't go so far as to say one is superior but I think if anything evidence shows just the opposite. You also sounds like you have MMA confused with WWE or whatever they call "professional wrestling" these days. Yes it's entertainment to a degree but these are legitimate fighters using the same proven formula for success.

You misunderstand me. He was stating one thing, I said I could show him just as many who would say the opposite, it doesn't mean either is true.
I promote MMA fight nights as well as coach fighters, I also ref, corner and judge MMA, I've been doing this for over 15 years now. To have a successful fight night one needs fighters who can 'entertain' a crowd, that means fight well. In that respect it's no different from boxing, no one wants to watch a boring fight. Saying that does not detract from fighters in anyway.

 

[Laplace_demon]

a successful throw will put a person on the ground. Which as you said a striker will then be in serious trouble.

That's not what he said. He claimed the thrown guy will land on his head if it's successful, as if the technique would have anything to do with the guys landing.

I train Taekwon-Do myself.

 

[elder999]

Btw, I just googled Judo, and as predicted, the "sport schools" do not offer striking as part of their curriculum. I am well within my rights to dismiss it and anybody claiming the oppposite is not referring to the Judo I am talking about.

Oooh. "Google." How thorough of you.

Have you ever actually watched the "judo you are talking about?"

Better yet: Ronda Rousey- "sports judo," or something else? And I mean that pre-MMA training.

 

[Reeksta]

That's not what he said. He claimed the thrown guy will land on his head if it's successful, as if the technique would have anything to do with the guys landing.

I train Taekwon-Do myself.

Of course the technique used affects how the person being thrown lands. A good judoka can exert a huge amount of influence over how uke lands with their choice of takedown and the point at which they choose to release. If they want to spike your head into the ground there's a good chance that this is exactly what will happen

 

[ballen0351]

as if the technique would have anything to do with the guys landing.

Of course it does just because you dont understand it doesn't make it not true

 

[Mephisto]

Dear lord. You must be a judoka. How could you seriously post that a successful throw will gurantee the victim falls on his head? I have thrown guys doing full summersaults in the air, landing on their back, and getting up. He was slightly heavy set and had no trouble getting up both times.

Nope, not a judoka just a realist but I have trained throws in depth at a JJJ/judo school in the past. Well if guys are summersaulting left and right out of your throws maybe you should visit a non tkd school or better yet a judo school before you make a decision about the validity of throws.

That's not what he said. He claimed the thrown guy will land on his head if it's successful, as if the technique would have anything to do with the guys landing.

I train Taekwon-Do myself.

Yes, you throw the opponent on his back for sport and safe practice. In application you tighten up the motion and dump him on his head, you'll have grips set so he won't be summersaulting away.

 

[Tez3]

Sport Judo must be a whole different sport then from what I've seen if the Judoka have no control over how and where the person they throw lands! I can't imagine people somersaulting away after being thrown lol. Is this a different sport?
I didn't start doing Judo/BJJ until I was an adult, learning to break fall was painful, a controlled throw by my instructor letting me down 'gently' on my back still managed to knock the air out of me in the beginning. A full throw used on someone not used to it would certainly wind them too much for somersaults.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I know bona fide Karate masters who don't even know who Lyoto Machida is. The same with TKD and Pettis.

Given the millions of karateka training in the world, it's not surprising that not all the high-level practitioners know who each other are.

BJJ masters however have and the rules are adapted to their art (one of the gracies initiated the UFC). That's why everybody needs BJJ, because it's not no holds barred, and the rules in place favour the wrestlers.

Actually the current rules of MMA are somewhat biased in favor of strikers.

Because wrestling/grappling is closely related to striking abilities. If your exceptional at one you will also excel in the other, at least standing.

Ah, so by that logic an exceptional wrestler or judoka will also excel at striking, correct?

I've grappled a wrestler from a freestyle or Greco Roman background. He was around my weight class and actively training. He couldn't put me on my back. We were around 17-18 years old. I havent' tried it as an adult

So you have a sample size of one against a wrestler of unknown ability and background.

Speaking for myself, I've got experience sparring hundreds (if not thousands) of different folks, including boxers, karateka, TKD practitioners, Muay Thai practitioners, Kung Fu practitioners, judoka, jiujiteiros, samboists, and wrestlers. I've also watched hundreds (if not thousands) of sparring matches, competitions, and real fights which included both striking and grappling.

Based on that experience and observations, stopping the takedown against a skilled grappler is a non-trivial task and attaining the clinch is probably easier than preventing the clinch.

I'm seeing other folks in this thread who have extensive experience in various systems of both striking and grappling indicating that their experiences line up with mine.

5th Dan in Taekwon-Do is more appropriate. You are graded by chief instructors and simply have to perform to their standards. There are 5th dans in their late 20s, early 30s. Nobody is even close to that level in the fights seen. The grapplers however are the Gracie family and other all time greats. It would be like comparing Mike Tyson to a mere black belt in Karate, and showing how boxing prevails. It doesn't indicate anything.

No, I am saying the skill level between competitors is not fair. There are no exceptional TKD guys that have ever fought grapplers. If there are they are in a minority and would not be representative.

I don't know about top TKD guys, but there have certainly been world-class strikers in MMA competition. James Toney is a 3-division world champion in boxing. Semmy Schilt is a 4 time K1 Grand Prix champion. Heck, even back in UFC 1, you had Gerard Gordeau, who was a world champion in Savate. (BTW, Gordeau is a 9th dan in Kyukushin karate, although I don't know what rank he had at the time.)

I'll note also note that a top level MMA striker is actually probably going to be quite a bit more skilled than your average 5th dan in karate or TKD, just because the MMA fighter is a professional who trains full time for a living, while most 5th dans in karate and TKD are not.

BTW - Royce Gracie is a great martial artist, but he was never a top level BJJ competitor.

I am less exposed than attempting to throw someone. It's executed faster and causes more damage when done accurately. I can guard myself while executing the kick also.

That's a nice theory. How have you tested it?

I have not heard of any prominent Tae Kwon Do fighter ever involved in a challenge match of style vs style.

If so, that's a personal choice on the part of the TKD fighters to only compete against practitioners of their own style. It also means that you have zero evidence that these "prominent" TKD practitioners would do well against grapplers or any other type of fighter.

You speak as if it's easy to close the distance. It's not easy against a trained martial artists who doesn't want to.

It's also not easy to prevent a determined opponent from closing the distance. Based on my observations and experiences, preventing someone from closing the distance is the greater challenge.

 

[tshadowchaser]

why all the discussion on cross training and striking vs grappling the OP wanted to know if Judo would be good for defense