am i over looking judo for real self defence?

[Tony Dismukes]

I can't provide any video since no world class kickboxing/TKD striker fought the Gracies or any other grappler, captured on easily accessible tape.

Um, I don't know if you read my earlier post, but there are plenty of world class kickboxers and other strikers that have competed in MMA, from the beginnings of the UFC up through the present.

Gerard Gordeau, Semy Schilt, Mark Hunt, Maurice Smith, Rick Roufus, the list goes on and on.

 

[elder999]

And since you mentioned him: I would much prefer to face a strong Judoka or BJJ black belt in street fight over Jerome Le Banner, even if Le banner for the sake of the discussion has no prior knowledge of grappling. I would also prefer to face anyone of the Gracies over Le Banner.

My odds of prevaling are by far the worst against Le Banner. I would need to KO either one, and Banner is ten times harder being a full contact fighter.

I dunno, man, Le Banner has a glass chin, and those Gracies, well, learning how to eat a couple to get where they want to be is part of their game.....having fought full contact in Japan, against world class (at the time) fighters (though by no means being "world class": myself,) and having consistently lost all of my life to judoka who went on to be or were world class, and being a congenital klutz myself, and having fought in what would today be called "MMA" against grapplers and strilkers, and being something of a grappler and something of a striker myself, I'd put it this way:

In the ring, under current MMA rules, I'd rather face a pure striker, than pure anything else.

In the street, I'd rather face a pure grappler-if I had to choose-but it really doesn't matter, because odds are good-given my proclivities, and 43 year long adjustment and training to congenital klutzhood-they're going to lose something necessary to keep fighting, whichever they are.

 

[drop bear]

There are plenty of striking focused events that allow takedowns.

Muay Thai has world class strikers and they still get taken down.

 

[Laplace_demon]

There are plenty of striking focused events that allow takedowns.

Muay Thai has world class strikers and they still get taken down.

Muay Thai includes throws. There is no suprise to find two strikers of that style attempting to take each other down.

There is also no mysterious science behind a martial art which incorporates strikes and kicks. Gracie fought mostly bums. The one legit TKD guy he faced (Leopoldo) didn't use any TKD whatsover, so that couldn't possibly count. Matt Hughes knocked Royce out, and Hughes is a wrestler.

Here's another pathetic showing in one of the gracie matches against strikers:

No serious person would attach any significance to these displays.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Muay Thai includes throws. There is no suprise to find two strikers of that style attempting to take each other down.

So does TKD. There are really not very many with anything other than the most basic knowledge of TKD who don't know this.

 

[Laplace_demon]

So does TKD. There are really not very many with anything other than the most basic knowledge of TKD who don't know this.

I never said it didn't. The techniques in TKD outside of the strikes and kicks are fairly basic compared to the grappling arts it stole from. I wouldn't speak too highly of it. But if you want to pretend that TKD is a mixture of striking and grappling then go ahead. Fact is not all schools teach throws. It depends on the instructor. Self defence involving no good joint locks is however common place for ITF.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I never said it didn't. The techniques in TKD outside of the strikes and kicks are fairly basic compared to the grappling arts it stole from. I wouldn't speak too highly of it. But if you want to pretend that TKD is a mixture of striking and grappling then go ahead. Fact is not all schools teach throws. It depends on the instructor. Self defence involving no good joint locks is however common place for ITF.

It is? How many ITF schools have you attended to make such a generalization? And what is your training and experience that qualifies you to decide is a joint lock is "good" or not?

 

[Laplace_demon]

It is? How many ITF schools have you attended to make such a generalization? And what is your training and experience that qualifies you to decide is a joint lock is "good" or not?

I have been exposed to these worthless jointlocks, since we have them. There is no time for that silly nonsense in a street altercation. Joint manipulations have been debunked years ago. It is a cheap attempt by martial arts schools to try and instill a false sense of security and fake advertisement.

I have been informed by 3rd dan black belts not only here but abroad that ITF TKD does not teach throws everywhere. If something being taught depends on the instructor I wouldn't say it's an integral part of the system.

 

[drop bear]

Muay Thai includes throws. There is no suprise to find two strikers of that style attempting to take each other down.

There is also no mysterious science behind a martial art which incorporates strikes and kicks. Gracie fought mostly bums. The one legit TKD guy he faced (Leopoldo) didn't use any TKD whatsover, so that couldn't possibly count. Matt Hughes knocked Royce out, and Hughes is a wrestler.

Here's another pathetic showing in one of the gracie matches against strikers:

No serious person would attach any significance to these displays.

but that is still world class strikers being taken down.

so it can be done.

 

[Laplace_demon]

but that is still world class strikers being taken down.

so it can be done.

Of course it can be done. Just as I can strike a grappler before the clinch.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have been exposed to these worthless jointlocks, since we have them. There is no time for that silly nonsense in a street altercation. Joint manipulations have been debunked years ago. It is a cheap attempt by martial arts schools to try and instill a false sense of security and fake advertisement.

I have been informed by 3rd dan black belts not only here but abroad that ITF TKD does not teach throws everywhere. If something being taught depends on the instructor I wouldn't say it's an integral part of the system.

So basically, you don't have any factual or experiential basis for your statements.
And, I note (as do others) that you have once again avoided answering a direct question about your training and experience.

Personally, I think it's quite likely that you're just making it up as you go along.

 

[ballen0351]

I have been exposed to these worthless jointlocks, since we have them. There is no time for that silly nonsense in a street altercation. Joint manipulations have been debunked years ago.

Hmm I use joint jocks at work all the time Guess they don't really work maybe I just tricked the guys into complying

 

[drop bear]

Of course it can be done. Just as I can strike a grappler before the clinch.

i am not saying you cant. But then we are comparing the fighter. Not really the style

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Gracie fought mostly bums.

Ooh, I've got an idea. How about you try walking up to Gerard Gordeau and tell him he's a bum who doesn't know how to strike. Get someone to video the results. Please?

The one legit TKD guy he faced (Leopoldo) didn't use any TKD whatsover, so that couldn't possibly count.

Actually, it doesn't count because Kimo never studied TKD. He made up that rank to get a shot in the UFC. His actual fighting qualifications were being a roided up wrestler and football player.

Royce did beat Pat Smith, who holds black belts in Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido, and Kempo and who has a 66-8 record in kickboxing and who knocked out Andy Hug in K1 and who outweighs Royce by about 50 pounds, but I suppose that doesn't count because Smith isn't a 5th degree black belt.

Matt Hughes knocked Royce out, and Hughes is a wrestler.

Matt Hughes's original base is wrestling. He is a mixed martial artist. He has trained extensively in striking. Also, his wrestling played a big part in being able to defeat both Royce and Renzo - his wrestling allowed him to neutralize their jiu-jitsu so that he could strike unimpeded.

No serious person would attach any significance to these displays.

Well, no one attaches any significance to Royce's victory over Bobby Ologun, because that was a novelty exhibition match against a celebrity opponent. It isn't even listed on Royce's record. Many serious martial artists do attach significance to Royce's victories over a series of bigger, stronger martial arts from a variety of backgrounds.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Ooh, I've got an idea. How about you try walking up to Gerard Gordeau and tell him he's a bum who doesn't know how to strike. Get someone to video the results. Please?



Actually, it doesn't count because Kimo never studied TKD. He made up that rank to get a shot in the UFC. His actual fighting qualifications were being a roided up wrestler and football player.

Royce did beat Pat Smith, who holds black belts in Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido, and Kempo and who has a 66-8 record in kickboxing and who knocked out Andy Hug in K1 and who outweighs Royce by about 50 pounds, but I suppose that doesn't count because Smith isn't a 5th degree black belt.

Patrick Smiths record in K1 is 1 win and 5 straight losses. His kick was telegraphed an hour in advance before Gracie closed the distance.,,, I did not knew that about Kimo, haha. Why wouldn't wrestling be good enough credentials for UFC if BJJ is?

 

[Tez3]

Why wouldn't wrestling be good enough credentials for UFC if BJJ is?

It is. As is Judo. I don't know how much you actually know about TKD but I can tell that you don't know very much about MMA. I think you missed the point about Kimo, the wrestling bit is fine, it was the roided up bit that wasn't.

 

[Laplace_demon]

[QUO

It is. As is Judo. I don't know how much you actually know about TKD but I can tell that you don't know very much about MMA. I think you missed the point about Kimo, the wrestling bit is fine, it was the roided up bit that wasn't.

Tony said Kimo needed to make up that TKD rank to get a shot in the UFC. How am I supposed to interpret that any differently than that a single Wrestling background was not enough?

 

[Dirty Dog]

[QUO


Tony said Kimo needed to make up that TKD rank to get a shot in the UFC. How am I supposed to interpret that any differently than that a single Wrestling background was not enough?

Tony did not say Kimo needed to make up TKD rank. He said he made it up. There are plenty of people who have invented ranks they never earned. They didn't need to, except in their own minds, or to placate their ego, or to try and cash in on the most recent fad.

 

[Laplace_demon]

. He said he made it up..

"To get a shot in the UFC"

 

[drop bear]

Is mark hunt a world class striker by the way?

winning k1 and all.