Laplace_demon
Black Belt
Take it up with user claiming MMA proves striking alone can't defeat grappling. As if sport competition has anything to do with self defence and using an art (Judo) which changed Do and became a sport.
am i over looking judo for real self defence?
- Thread starter jwmims
- Start date
Take it up with user claiming MMA proves striking alone can't defeat grappling. As if sport competition has anything to do with self defence and using an art (Judo) which changed Do and became a sport.
You know, I have no idea what you are talking about?
You have your own ideas, you are stuck with them which is odd as you are neither a Judoka nor an MMAist and despite enough proof to show you are wrong you cling to these ideas like a drowning man to a piece of wood. Yet you want us to believe you are correct......without proof.
and having thought further about this... why as a TKDist are you on a thread about Judo as self defence telling us that TKD isn't used in MMA?
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Laplace_demon
Black Belt
Now as to Judo and it's current status, the fact that I can google Judo+ Striking, and learn there are schools which don't teach striking and some that do, tells me that something has really changed. But go on pretend as if Judo has not changed Do.
You can google anything. Even good stuff like this -
But that doesn't change Do, either. (Gee, there might a song in there somewhere.)
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
What in fact changes Do, if not schools adhering to the sport element, while rejecting the self defence and art aspect?
Please elaborate!
/Humble, non Judoka.
I showed you the link to the British Judo Self Defence Committee which overlooks and ensures that Judo for self defence is still taught alongside a 'sporting' side, yet you chose to ignore that and come up with the clichƩd 'I googled and found this' excuse. Judoka have told you that Judo is for self defence yet you choose to ignore this too. We could go on and on about the lack of self defence in TKD, how it's kicking only, how it's just a sport because we can find via Google, videos 'proving' this but we don't because we know better, you found a couple of places that do what you, a non Judoka, consider inferior Judo and thus condemn all Judo. Speaks volumes about you and nothing about Judo.
Reeksta
Green Belt
Kano's vision of judo was based around 3 ideals: cultivation of physical health, learning the martial aspect and inspiring students to become morally good people who contribute to society. This was his do and I believe that much of the contempory judo community adheres to this.
Practicing judo will make you very strong and fit, there's really no doubt about this. It's fantastic exercise. It is also - despite what unfounded claims anyone might make - a hugely effective martial art both in competition and self defence contexts. Finally, my experience is that many judo clubs do a great deal for the wider community. A number of the clubs in the city I live participate in charity throwathons and the like, plus of course they do an excellent job of injecting purpose and positivity into the lives of many young men and women who may be lacking these things in their lives prior to taking up the sport. Don't want to go into too many details but rediscovering judo in my 20s completely turned my life around and I know countless others with similar stories.
People's definition of do will obviously vary, but as far as Kano's goes (which is surely the only one judokas have any kind of responsibility to uphold?) I believe the art is doing a very good job personally
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
British judo self defence comittee can not ensure world wide principles. ITF TKD schools are to include self defence, and I haven't heard it being rejected in any school. Your analogy is flawed.
You're still quite wrong and willfully ignorant. Not one person here agrees with you. Please provide some evidence as to why pure grappling against pure striking is risky. I can refer you to the old Gracie challenge videos where pure grapplers like the Gracie's were able to dominate many pure strikers. There are many examples of the need for grappling in a realistic format. Where did you get the idea that tkd alone is all you need for self defense? Your instructor? How long have you been training? What systems have you trained? Do you think you're one of these elite super tkd-ers? If not than you could use some grappling knowledge too.
You've been wrong about several things here and shown your ignorance many times. I don't know what else to tell you.
I was going to post the following in the women's martial arts section or even just the Judo one but on consideration because of the self defence comments on it I thought I would post it here. Early on Judo was thought to be very good for women for the purposes of self defence, I don't believe that either Judo or the need for female self defence has changed much in a century so I believe this is a valid contribution to this thread. That is also contains history about women in Judo is a bonus
InYo women s judo 1900-1945 Svinth
Awesome stuff there, Tez. Thanks.
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
The gracies are world renowned grapplers against not so good strikers.... The karate instructor here, accepting the challenge, is not very aggressive, to say the least. Even his stance is weak. I mean, to even have to adress these challenges offends me.
Reeksta
Green Belt
Okay @Laplace_demon I can accept that controlled challenge/MMA matches may not be the ideal format to examine an art's suitability for self defence, so let me put things a different way and see if we can reach some understanding.
The last time I properly had to defend myself in a 'real' situation was about 6 years ago (at which point judo was the only martial art I'd trained in to any extent) when I was attacked by 5 lads on the top deck of a bus. They threw a few punches but it quickly became apparent that what they really wanted to do was grab a hold of me and haul me to the ground so they could give me a kicking. This is generally the way packs operate in my experience. Because I knew how to break grips I was able to keep their hands off me and because I had practice in moving bodies around I was able to continually move them and myself so that I did not become surrounded. Eventually the driver called up that he'd rang the police and they legged it. I had a few cuts and bruises but it could have been much worse. The fact that it wasn't is because of judo. I genuinely can't see any way that I would have avoided being overwhelmed if I'd only known a striking art. That's not to put them down but in this situation it wouldn't have saved me; there was too many of them in too confined a space.
Does that make any more sense in terms of why judo would be useful for someone in a self defence context?
The last time I properly had to defend myself in a 'real' situation was about 6 years ago (at which point judo was the only martial art I'd trained in to any extent) when I was attacked by 5 lads on the top deck of a bus. They threw a few punches but it quickly became apparent that what they really wanted to do was grab a hold of me and haul me to the ground so they could give me a kicking. This is generally the way packs operate in my experience. Because I knew how to break grips I was able to keep their hands off me and because I had practice in moving bodies around I was able to continually move them and myself so that I did not become surrounded. Eventually the driver called up that he'd rang the police and they legged it. I had a few cuts and bruises but it could have been much worse. The fact that it wasn't is because of judo. I genuinely can't see any way that I would have avoided being overwhelmed if I'd only known a striking art. That's not to put them down but in this situation it wouldn't have saved me; there was too many of them in too confined a space.
Does that make any more sense in terms of why judo would be useful for someone in a self defence context?
That's one video of many. Of course I'm sure they just never really fought a "good" striker. In UFC one the first guy Royce fought was a skilled boxer, he was allowed to wear a glove to better use his jab without risk on injury. It didn't end well for the boxer. I asked for videos where superior striking prevails over grappling. There are some out there that I've seen but they are also the exception rather than the rule. Also a lot of the strikers that beat grapplers know how to grapple and choose to keep the fight standing.
Knowledge of grappling and standup enables you to control the fight and where it takes place. A striker that can't grapple can't depend on striking alone to keep things from going to the ground. A skilled grappler, a brawler that doesn't fear your strikes, a bigger opponent, can all take distance and get the clinch and take down. Distance is a luxury that can easily be lost in a fight, your surroundings in reality such as the example of a bus or confined space all favor a grappler. If an opponent can grab you he can take you down. In this respect I think grappling knowledge is more important than striking. Keep in mind I train striking arts, I am not a grappler who favors his way. As a striker I know where my weaknesses lie, but I dont fight people outside of sparring, so it's not really a concern to me. You need to have a realistic view of the world not a view that suits what you currently do. Obviously you favor striking and tkd because that's what you train but you are biased and too ignorant to realize that.
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It is not an analogy at all so therefore cannot be a flawed one. You stated that absolutely no Judoka at all were doing self defence, I showed you where some were therefore you are absolutely wrong in your assertion that all Judoka are not doing self defence. Perhaps if you stopped talking in absolutes you would not be disagreed with.
Your second sentence makes no sense, 'ITF TKD are to include self defence', they aren't doing it now? You haven't heard what being rejected in what schools?
Neither can any of the various ITF groups. Nor the (much larger) KKW group. Nor any other organization.
Because it isn't possible, outside the very small minority of any group that competes at a given level.
And yet you claim that "elderly black belts" at your club have never been taught any throws. Which are, by any reasonable definition, important to self defense.
You do tend to contradict yourself a lot...
Which user was that? I think you were the one to bring up MMA in this thread.
I don't understand what this sentence means. An art which changed Do? Could you clarify what you are trying to say?
While having a cuppa I idly googled 'Judo and self defence USA'. Pages and pages of clubs and schools came up that say they do Judo for self defence, there's videos and books for sale of Judo for self defence, forums ,blogs and other sites that cover the self defence aspect of Judo , however google 'Judo and sport' and you will get the sports aspect....funny that.
I can't testify to the competence of all these places of course but certainly Judo for self defence is out there.
I can't testify to the competence of all these places of course but certainly Judo for self defence is out there.
Just to clarify, I don't think anyone here is making that claim. I'm a passable grappler, but if I were to get into a fight with Jerome Banner I would almost certainly be unconscious before I got anywhere near taking him down.
What we are saying is if you have two fighters whose abilities are even within the same order of magnitude, then it can be very tricky for a pure striker to prevent a grappler from closing the distance, clinching, or getting the takedown. In fact, it's pretty common for two pure strikers to end up in the clinch or even going to the ground even though neither of them have trained for that. (BTW - I came to that realization over a decade before the first UFC.)
Anyway, this doesn't have a lot to do with the initial question regarding Judo for self-defense. Even if you were correct in your contention that a high-level TKD expert can stop a grappler cold, the fact is that there aren't too many TKD grandmasters out there mugging people in dark alleys.
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
I can't provide any video since no world class kickboxing/TKD striker fought the Gracies or any other grappler, captured on easily accessible tape.
And since you mentioned him: I would much prefer to face a strong Judoka or BJJ black belt in street fight over Jerome Le Banner, even if Le banner for the sake of the discussion has no prior knowledge of grappling. I would also prefer to face anyone of the Gracies over Le Banner.
My odds of prevaling are by far the worst against Le Banner. I would need to KO either one, and Banner is ten times harder being a full contact fighter.
And since you mentioned him: I would much prefer to face a strong Judoka or BJJ black belt in street fight over Jerome Le Banner, even if Le banner for the sake of the discussion has no prior knowledge of grappling. I would also prefer to face anyone of the Gracies over Le Banner.
My odds of prevaling are by far the worst against Le Banner. I would need to KO either one, and Banner is ten times harder being a full contact fighter.
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