Am I Just Old Fashion
- Thread starter GuruJim1
- Start date
green meanie
Master Black Belt
GuruJim1 said:
The reason MMA is void of forms is because most people in the MMA study arts that don't have kata. This isn't a departure from the way these arts were intended to be taught and learned they didn't have kata in the first place. Most MMA is comprised of wrestling, brazilian jiu-jitsu, and boxing / muay thai. Now I don't know about muay thai but I've studied the other three and kata just isn't the way the arts are taught or practiced. There's nothing wrong with that. :asian:
green meanie
Master Black Belt
mantis said:
I'm a third generation wrestler who was part of the first wrestling program our high school ever had. I now proudly teach my 'family art' to my children and coach the wrestling team at the same high school where it all began. How's that for western + tradition + culture? Ringing in bells yet?
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
green meanie said:
This is true, I use to study Jujitsu and there were no katas of forms and Jujitsu is a very old and traditional Japanese art and I liked it a lot. And I will also admit back then I was completely against katas, I felt they were a waste of time. But after studying TDK I felt different about it.
Just as a note: I do not agree with bashing any martial art, whether that be CMA. MMA, JMA, whatever. Theyre all good and they all have their good points.
But if you study an art that has katas or forms not learning those looses the essence of that art.
OP
OP
GuruJim1
Green Belt
Don't get me wrong I'm putting any martial art down. If they was void of kata then fine, I'm just talking about the openly bashing of a more traditional approach of the arts. I have heard and chatted with people that bashes art because they choise to keep the art side alive. I have had MMA and BJJ guy tell me to try to take my Forms into the UFC and see how fast I get beaten. I do practice for combat, but I also ready my mind and love the artistic side of the Martial Arts. However, let's get one thing straight. UFC is as close to street fighting as you can get, but it not true street fighting. Without rules fighters will die a quick or very a painful death. I'm just speaking out against people that does come from a classical background and now is into Martial Bully. I like to watch the UFC and Pride fights as well, but I see another side of the coin as well.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
GuruJim1 said:
I agree, hey I am the guy that did the "Enough with the CMA bashing already" post after all.
It was just that green meanie's post made me think what I was saying might be taken as bashing another art and I am against that. Also it made me remember that way back in the Stone Age I was one of those anti-kata guys
green meanie
Master Black Belt
GuruJim1 said:
Sounds to me like you've met a couple of guys who have represented the art badly. It happens. And it's unfortunate but it doesn't mean that everyone involved in MMA thinks and behaves that way. You should know that right? :asian:
OP
OP
GuruJim1
Green Belt
Green Meanie,
I do know that every art has it's ********. I know that not everyone in the BJJ and MMA crowd is like that. It's only the bad apples that show themself and it matter of time until they get a hard lesson taught to them. All I'm saying is that just because one want a realistic fighting art, the art shouldn't suffer. I've had student leave my school after training with me and join Bando touries, and MMA contest. All I'm saying is, it's a warrior at peace that makes for the deadest fighter. I find peace in my forms, and in my art as an artist. I know BJJ and MMA people and I can say they are good people. But 1% is all about being a bully as is other arts, but they have also stray of the art as well. When I say art I mean finding an inner peace that not all about kickin butt. It's about being a better person and artist.
I do know that every art has it's ********. I know that not everyone in the BJJ and MMA crowd is like that. It's only the bad apples that show themself and it matter of time until they get a hard lesson taught to them. All I'm saying is that just because one want a realistic fighting art, the art shouldn't suffer. I've had student leave my school after training with me and join Bando touries, and MMA contest. All I'm saying is, it's a warrior at peace that makes for the deadest fighter. I find peace in my forms, and in my art as an artist. I know BJJ and MMA people and I can say they are good people. But 1% is all about being a bully as is other arts, but they have also stray of the art as well. When I say art I mean finding an inner peace that not all about kickin butt. It's about being a better person and artist.
green meanie
Master Black Belt
Agreed. Not trying to push your buttons Jim, just trying to point out that there's more than one way to find peace in the martial arts.
Kata happens to be your way and that's great, but for me it's rolling around.
"Today, like every other day, we wake up empty and frightened.
Don't open the door to the study and begin reading.
Take down a musical instrument.
Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." -Rumi
:asian:
Kata happens to be your way and that's great, but for me it's rolling around.
"Today, like every other day, we wake up empty and frightened.
Don't open the door to the study and begin reading.
Take down a musical instrument.
Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." -Rumi
:asian:
OP
OP
GuruJim1
Green Belt
I agree. I only used the kata as an example. I have seen so much of this, "my art is better and I'll beat you up to prove it". Martial arts is a way of peace. We only fight because we are forced into combat, not because we can. I enjoy rolling around on the ground grappling as well. I enjoy working out with all styles and learn about other styles. My inner peace is to be the best person and artist I can be. Prepare for battle and hope it never come. However, in my line of work it will. I just love to get lost in my workouts and become better this year than the last. Your not pushing my buttons Green Meanie. I understand where your coming from. All I'm saying is that martial arts is for more than just fighting, and to focus only on fighting is very narrow minded.
Dark
Purple Belt
MardiGras Bandit said:
I love this comment I truly do because it shows how inane a lack of morals can be. Lets talk reality, here for a minute. I agree contact training is good, but what about the guys who teach knife fighting or carry fire arms?
Morals means responsibilty, ethic means control and in the real world control can save your life more then fighting ability. Thats the reason for philosophy and ethical training.
Every MA and yes even MMA loses in the real world, because of unfounded myths. And if you approach MAs at ground level: Martial = War, Art = A Science. The science of war, war is about death and killing. True Karate, what I learned included ground fighting concepts, but every tough guy martial artist I've delt with, not just BJJist but karatekas and even an aikidoka panic in a down and dirty fight.
Now I agree there are allot of myths in the martials, and one happens to the sport prepares you for the street. The other is the ultimate martial art. Tell me how you trained and compare it with my full contact karate and see who has a more realistic training base. You up for it? I'll even go first..? I will warn you I train for the street, a ring...
Absolutely! The people who insist that forms have nothing to do with fighting simply don't understand them. If they weren't important; if they had nothing to do with the development of superior fighting skills, why would our (martial arts) forefathers have bothered with them?
The originators of the traditional martial arts never used to fight with boxing gloves, groin cups, or in boxing rings with referees. There were no rules, no pads, no coaches, no rounds. And if you won, you just got to go home.
Back in the 30's, the Okinawan population in Hawaii felt they'd lost face because American wrestlers and boxers (who were mostly sailors) were beating their best jujutsu fighters. They sent to Okinawa for karate practitioners to come over.
Two senior karateka arrived in Hawaii but thought they were supposed to teach classes. When they were informed that the locals wanted them to fight the wrestlers and boxers, they replied that "karate is too dangerous for that kind of sport" and went back to Okinawa.
Back in the 50's Mas Oyama toured much of the U.S., taking on any fighter who'd climb into the ring with him. This was back in the day when he believed kata was a vital part of training.
Anyone who could stay on their feet for 3 minutes would win a cash reward. In several hundred fights, nobody ever collected the money.
Master Seiyu Oyata trained in traditional Okinawan karate just after WWII and he emphasizes kata very heavily because the real technique is hidden within these "books." Even at his advanced age, if you get within striking range, he'll strike you once and it gets dark very quickly.
A dear friend of mine who's a 6th dan in Isshinryu had two full-contact competitors ask for a match with him to see if this "traditional karate" stuff really worked. He wasn't teaching a class at the time and happily obliged them. They changed into their practice clothes and pads, but he told they'd have to remove the pads - after all, traditional karate doesn't use pads and it would alter the striking surface of his fists.
They begrudgingly removed their gloves and the first fighter stepped onto the floor with him. Within 20 seconds, the ungloved full-contact fighter was unconscious.
The second fighter was a bit hesitant but walked onto the floor to see how well he'd fare. He fired a punch and his arm went numb when the karate teacher struck a nerve point and then was dropped straight to the ground as a second blow was driven into his body.
These are, I think, examples of what real martial ARTS should be. Keep the faith. The real art is still an art - not a sport.
The originators of the traditional martial arts never used to fight with boxing gloves, groin cups, or in boxing rings with referees. There were no rules, no pads, no coaches, no rounds. And if you won, you just got to go home.
Back in the 30's, the Okinawan population in Hawaii felt they'd lost face because American wrestlers and boxers (who were mostly sailors) were beating their best jujutsu fighters. They sent to Okinawa for karate practitioners to come over.
Two senior karateka arrived in Hawaii but thought they were supposed to teach classes. When they were informed that the locals wanted them to fight the wrestlers and boxers, they replied that "karate is too dangerous for that kind of sport" and went back to Okinawa.
Back in the 50's Mas Oyama toured much of the U.S., taking on any fighter who'd climb into the ring with him. This was back in the day when he believed kata was a vital part of training.
Anyone who could stay on their feet for 3 minutes would win a cash reward. In several hundred fights, nobody ever collected the money.
Master Seiyu Oyata trained in traditional Okinawan karate just after WWII and he emphasizes kata very heavily because the real technique is hidden within these "books." Even at his advanced age, if you get within striking range, he'll strike you once and it gets dark very quickly.
A dear friend of mine who's a 6th dan in Isshinryu had two full-contact competitors ask for a match with him to see if this "traditional karate" stuff really worked. He wasn't teaching a class at the time and happily obliged them. They changed into their practice clothes and pads, but he told they'd have to remove the pads - after all, traditional karate doesn't use pads and it would alter the striking surface of his fists.
They begrudgingly removed their gloves and the first fighter stepped onto the floor with him. Within 20 seconds, the ungloved full-contact fighter was unconscious.
The second fighter was a bit hesitant but walked onto the floor to see how well he'd fare. He fired a punch and his arm went numb when the karate teacher struck a nerve point and then was dropped straight to the ground as a second blow was driven into his body.
These are, I think, examples of what real martial ARTS should be. Keep the faith. The real art is still an art - not a sport.
MardiGras Bandit
Green Belt
I was waiting to get a response off that one. Here goes...
I think you guys are both letting your prejudices cloud your interpretation of my post. I never knocked any martial art, though you both felt the need to do so. Rather I was talking about things like meditation and cliche martial arts ethics lessons taken straight from the karate kid. These are things I believe are used not towards any realistic training goals, but to fill time and try to fit into sterotypes of what martial arts should be.
As for kata, I don't think they are useless. There are things in BJJ that could be considered katas (things like submission and passing drills) that I find usefull. I do think their use is highly limited though, mostly for warming up and getting a refresher of the technique. When such things stop being a warmup and become the primary focus of training, you are loosing the abilty to judge your skills realistically.
One last thing: busting out Mas Oyama in an MA debate is like bringing up Rickson's 400-0 record. It's best to pretend you never heard of such things.
I think you guys are both letting your prejudices cloud your interpretation of my post. I never knocked any martial art, though you both felt the need to do so. Rather I was talking about things like meditation and cliche martial arts ethics lessons taken straight from the karate kid. These are things I believe are used not towards any realistic training goals, but to fill time and try to fit into sterotypes of what martial arts should be.
As for kata, I don't think they are useless. There are things in BJJ that could be considered katas (things like submission and passing drills) that I find usefull. I do think their use is highly limited though, mostly for warming up and getting a refresher of the technique. When such things stop being a warmup and become the primary focus of training, you are loosing the abilty to judge your skills realistically.
One last thing: busting out Mas Oyama in an MA debate is like bringing up Rickson's 400-0 record. It's best to pretend you never heard of such things.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
MardiGras Bandit said:
Actually, Qi training both internal and external is important to many MA whether they know it or not. I give you the karate kid was a movie and not reality.
And to simplify, external Qi training is why some appear to be able to be hit by a train and it does not faze them. These both can be lumped into mediation by many who do not understand them.
Dark
Purple Belt
MardiGras Bandit said:
Yes and no... I am bias to the extent of unfounded propaganda I hear, often sites none proven "facts" the "90% of all fights end up on the ground" is a psuedo myth. Which comes up in the same arguements across the net and totally limited to the ring and not the street. My bias for MMA begins and ends with the propaganda machine of guys who have never been in a real fight.
As far as the Karate kid thing, that movie was written to address the philosophy behind true karate, meditation is good for relaxation and mental development. It has less to do with enlightenment, as the practical application of controling the mind. The mind controls the body, emotion controls the mind, and instinct controls emotion.
If you can develop good instinct you can control your emotional responses, controlling your emotions, allows you to maintain a clear, focused and scientific mindset. This leads to controlled and focused applications of the body.
My Problems with TMA:
It's the cultural training of most commercial schools that annoys me, I took Karate for four years and the only thing I learned about Japanese culture was how to count to 10 in Japanese. Few karate or any TMA ran out of a commerical dojo teach ethics or philosophy.
Karate by technique is purely offensive, most experience karateka know this. However, it is also taught with an ethic undertone to prevent senseless violence. Allot of karate techniques deal with trapping, and locking as well as bone breaking at close range.
It wasn't long ago when different schools would have brawls in the street, just to prove who was the best. And allot of that childish behavior still carries one today. The internet is full of talker who had never been in a fight so the think of over dramatic, fiction based, brain rotting boasts. I wish we could have offical duels in the streets again, it would shut so many people up. Dojo is not the street, & a ring is not the street. A dojo can be made to function/simulate as the street, can a ring?
I'm a shodan from back when most TMAs only went to godan (fifth degree black belt) before everyone and thier grandmother had 9th and 10th dans. Infact, O-Sensei Kano the founder of Judo the inventor of the belt system was only a 5th dan and those granted ranks above that where only honorary titles, usually given after death. How many people now claim 11th and higher dan grades? How many arts included extended their belt testing to make up for watered down teaching? I have a bias towards all of it; weak minds, weak wills and weak ideas...
To that end I am old fashioned and proud of it...
A very valid response, indeed! I agree, for the most part, although there are a couple of tidbits
I'd have to somewhat disagree on this matter. The way I see it, the philosophy of the martial arts is taught in many ways, through the applications themselves. In a way, your statement supports this:
Ugh. I did a good bit of reading into John Keehan (aka Count Juan Raphael Dante) and the dojo wars. Very ugly situation, and I often times wonder how he went from being a level-headed, respectable sensei (and important figure in the USKA) to what he became.
Actually, in several states, it's technically legal.
On a more serious note, though, I'm not so sure that I'd want this, since you can darn well bet that there would be someone killed through such things. It happened before when Keehan and his friends tried to crash in on a rival's dojo, dressed as law enforcement officers, and one of his closest friends died from that brouhaha.
To a certain extent, yes, since there are many techniques that could be practiced safely. However, you're right, that there are a lot of things that really can't be used in the ring, when it comes to aiding a street fight, such as biting, gouging, small joint manipulation, etc.
As long as they keep to themselves, and don't try to claim that their 11th or 12th degree black belts are better than other styles' 5th degree black belts (I'm just throwing out numbers here), I'd simply leave them be, and not waste precious calories on them. Ranking is all relative, and as long as people keep things in perspective, then so be it.
Unfortunately, a lot of such folks do not keep such things in perspective, try to compare ranks without doing some honest research, and when someone tries to compare apples to oranges, they step into an unpleasant pile of foul-smelling matter.
I actually agree with you a lot on this matter. While having more belts along the way can help those who have problems learning, and that at least they are given some encouragement, to have everyone go through a very large number of ranks would be the same as holding everyone back for no good reason other than to cash in on exam fees.
Dark said:
I'd have to somewhat disagree on this matter. The way I see it, the philosophy of the martial arts is taught in many ways, through the applications themselves. In a way, your statement supports this:
Ugh. I did a good bit of reading into John Keehan (aka Count Juan Raphael Dante) and the dojo wars. Very ugly situation, and I often times wonder how he went from being a level-headed, respectable sensei (and important figure in the USKA) to what he became.
Actually, in several states, it's technically legal.
On a more serious note, though, I'm not so sure that I'd want this, since you can darn well bet that there would be someone killed through such things. It happened before when Keehan and his friends tried to crash in on a rival's dojo, dressed as law enforcement officers, and one of his closest friends died from that brouhaha.
To a certain extent, yes, since there are many techniques that could be practiced safely. However, you're right, that there are a lot of things that really can't be used in the ring, when it comes to aiding a street fight, such as biting, gouging, small joint manipulation, etc.
As long as they keep to themselves, and don't try to claim that their 11th or 12th degree black belts are better than other styles' 5th degree black belts (I'm just throwing out numbers here), I'd simply leave them be, and not waste precious calories on them. Ranking is all relative, and as long as people keep things in perspective, then so be it.
Unfortunately, a lot of such folks do not keep such things in perspective, try to compare ranks without doing some honest research, and when someone tries to compare apples to oranges, they step into an unpleasant pile of foul-smelling matter.
I actually agree with you a lot on this matter. While having more belts along the way can help those who have problems learning, and that at least they are given some encouragement, to have everyone go through a very large number of ranks would be the same as holding everyone back for no good reason other than to cash in on exam fees.
Dark
Purple Belt
Grenadier said:
Actually the dojo brawling is common still in Asia, Bruce Lee went through it for teaching undesirables. Keehan had a habit of teaching anyone including bikrs, gang members and such. There is allot of trash between schools and styles we see it all over the net.
It's just some people and some cultures believe if you are responsible for your actions. If you make a comment that can be considered a challenge or challenging to anothers views, don't be surprised when they want to take you up on it.
trueaspirer
Green Belt
I agree that the art has gone out of ma. Everyone seems to think about its all about how to lay on the puches, period. I think that there's more, that even if you dont totally agree with the policy, you still should understand that meditation, forms for the purpose of forms and things like that have a purpose.
As long as we're on the subject of ethics, let me ask this: what makes you qualified as a martial arts teacher to impart your ethics onto other people?
Before we get too far into this, that doesn't mean teaching anything to anyone or having no judgement at all. However, I really question what, if anything, most martial arts teachers know about morality and ethics beyond what the general population does and why that should be a package deal with martial arts training.
To draw a parrallel, you can get gun use courses from the police, who won't train felons and the like, but they don't teach you Christianity or Zen or esoteric Buddhism or Taoism or respect for your elders or to bow and kowtow to those with a fancier belt. They will make a black-and-white judgement as to whether or not you are ALREADY in a state where they can teach you, and then they either will or won't. They may make you aware of legal and, by extension, ethical restrictions as well as best practices, but they won't demand a reordering of your life.
Now, at one point, many martial arts were strongly linked with religious groups and oriental philosophies (many Japanese arts were practiced in Shinto shrines, Chinese Buddhists launched much of the Chinese external arts and the internal arts often had Taoist overtones etc etc etc.) However, most martial arts practitioners are not members of those religions, have their own ethical ideas already, and are IMO not in need of conversion. Most martial arts teachers can impart only a buchered summary of Oriental movie lore - and for a student to be compelled to accept this is rather insulting.
Even martial arts instructors who do have a genuine understanding of oriental philosophy, religion and ethical thought should question whether that is necessarily and inexerably tied to the physical techniques or is simply a cultural preferance that can be dispensed with.
All the different types of martial arts have had ethical lapses throughout their history and I have serious doubts that martial arts instructors are any more moral than the general population let alone in a position to pontificate on the beliefs of others.
Before we get too far into this, that doesn't mean teaching anything to anyone or having no judgement at all. However, I really question what, if anything, most martial arts teachers know about morality and ethics beyond what the general population does and why that should be a package deal with martial arts training.
To draw a parrallel, you can get gun use courses from the police, who won't train felons and the like, but they don't teach you Christianity or Zen or esoteric Buddhism or Taoism or respect for your elders or to bow and kowtow to those with a fancier belt. They will make a black-and-white judgement as to whether or not you are ALREADY in a state where they can teach you, and then they either will or won't. They may make you aware of legal and, by extension, ethical restrictions as well as best practices, but they won't demand a reordering of your life.
Now, at one point, many martial arts were strongly linked with religious groups and oriental philosophies (many Japanese arts were practiced in Shinto shrines, Chinese Buddhists launched much of the Chinese external arts and the internal arts often had Taoist overtones etc etc etc.) However, most martial arts practitioners are not members of those religions, have their own ethical ideas already, and are IMO not in need of conversion. Most martial arts teachers can impart only a buchered summary of Oriental movie lore - and for a student to be compelled to accept this is rather insulting.
Even martial arts instructors who do have a genuine understanding of oriental philosophy, religion and ethical thought should question whether that is necessarily and inexerably tied to the physical techniques or is simply a cultural preferance that can be dispensed with.
All the different types of martial arts have had ethical lapses throughout their history and I have serious doubts that martial arts instructors are any more moral than the general population let alone in a position to pontificate on the beliefs of others.
Dark
Purple Belt
Rook said:
There are certain universal rules of proper/moral/ethical/philosophical belief strucks. Teaching not to harm other is essentually universe, only the whys change. The greatest moral that one can teach is personal responsibility, if you do something wrong your responsibile. Simple...
As far as what makes me qualified to teach morals, nothing. But assuming a leadership role does put me into a position act morally or ethically. However, I don't set around preaching...
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