Am I Just Old Fashion

[GuruJim1]

I remember when I started training, the art in the Martial Arts was just as important as combat. In this is day of UFC and Pride Fighting it seems that the art is becoming lost. Most MMA is void of forms because of the thought that Kata wont work on the streets. Don't get me wrong I believe in a realistic fighting system as much as anyone, but I don't see as much importance but on practicing of the art.

I love practicing forms (Empty Hands or Weapons), and I enjoy practicing all those fancy kicks. I feel the Martial Arts is not just about destroying your oppenet, but the mastery of your body, mind, and soul. I love being able to amaze people with my forms, and to watch a skilled Martial Artist preform a Kata. I still see the art in Martial Arts, and this brings me to my question, "Am I Just Old Fashion"???

 

[mantis]

I remember when I started training, the art in the Martial Arts was just as important as combat. In this is day of UFC and Pride Fighting it seems that the art is becoming lost. Most MMA is void of forms because of the thought that Kata wont work on the streets. Don't get me wrong I believe in a realistic fighting system as much as anyone, but I don't see as much importance but on practicing of the art.

I love practicing forms (Empty Hands or Weapons), and I enjoy practicing all those fancy kicks. I feel the Martial Arts is not just about destroying your oppenet, but the mastery of your body, mind, and soul. I love being able to amaze people with my forms, and to watch a skilled Martial Artist preform a Kata. I still see the art in Martial Arts, and this brings me to my question, "Am I Just Old Fashion"???

No you are not. The western mentality emphasizes that one part of martial arts, which is the fighting. It also appended to it another attribute which is the pride part of it.

Some people choose to stick with discipline and humility and the other values traditional or mostly eastern martial arts associate with, and some choose the western version of fighting. To people who chose to consider the fighting version of the arts it seems that UFC, or street-competency is the top of their dreams. If i do not see your art in the UFC then it must suck.

I'll give an example: i saw a video online of a shaolin monk who is able to stand on one finger (died in 1989 and was the only in the world to achieve the one-finger zen). He did it when he's 40 and demonstrated it again when he's 90+. I read the comments people had on that clip and most of them were "how's that gonna help you on the street"? (as well as other "that's gay" comments)

Another example given by bruce lee: he said to a western person I may grab a rock and break it in front of him to demonstrate my fighting skill. but if I am to show that to an asian person it will not make any impression. On the other hand he gave the example of an aikido master sitting in a restaurant eating when 3 robbers started harrassing him. All he did is he caught some flies with his chop sticks. the robbers bowed it out and ran away. You see, in the western culture catching a fly with your chop sticks does not have any indication of "street fighting competency".

you are not old fashion. You only realize that martial arts are more than bullying, and show off.

 

[Ceicei]

The art is still there. I do enjoy very much watching a skilled martial artist doing a very well-done kata. If this means being "old fashioned", then so be it.

Training in martial arts doesn't have to be combat oriented. It is also for mastery of Self - physically, mentally, psychologically, and morally. To watch a martial artist become such is awesome. There is more to training than just being able to fight. There are many, many reasons for why and how a person trains. There are just as many different styles to fit the needs and wants of the students/instructors. That's what makes life more interesting.

- Ceicei

 

[celtic_crippler]

It's sad but there is less and less of the "art." The Western mentality tends to lean towards what is practical...what works. Jim-Bob don't care how purdy he looks, he just wants to whup sum butt! LOL. The loss is in the mental/spritual development of the student. Martial Arts is more than just physical..IMHO. I actually believe that someone that learns it all will be more effective than someone that just focuses on the physical. Their loss.

 

[terryl965]

The Art will always be there, just far from each other. MMA and xtreme have taken the western flashy world by storm and people forthe most part will buy anything and when it come to MA most is about a six week course for SD or a weekend seminar and that is what get people hurt more times than not.

I lova the Art of MA myself.
Terry

 

[stone_dragone]

The good news: The art is still ailve and well.

The bad news (for those interested in the art): In recent decades, the western public has taken its eyes away from the art and focuses more on the martial (televised MMA events, action movies, etc) and like produces like..."This is what the people will watch so if we want ratings, this is what we will show."

That MMA is growing in popularity is awesome, but TMA will never be replaced. There are enough students and teachers to keep it going for another generation, and another, and another.

Judo is a sport that gained immense popularity, but people still practice TJJ as well.

My [somewhat erratic] two cents

 

[Xue Sheng]

Nope, you’re a dinosaur....like me

Many in the west and most unfortunately it has spread beyond the west, are interested in exactly as has been talked about… Becoming dangerous and they want to get there as quickly as possible. And to be honest if that is what they want there is nothing wrong with that. But I do believe that you miss a lot of the actual art and its benefits by taking that approach.

 

[Andrew Green]

Just out of curiosity... Why, on a western board, do some many people look down on western traditions, arts and training methods? The west has been doing martial arts for a rather long time, and for most of us, western culture is OUR culture.

 

[rmclain]

It really depends on the purpose of training. People get into it for different reasons.

In our modern "information age," enemies tend to be mental rather than physical attackers. The chance of using physical martial arts skills against an assailant are rare. But, people have to deal with work/school-related stress, self-doubt, anger, depression, etc. on a daily (even hourly) basis. I've lost two friends to these "mental enemies" in my life. They both were unprepared to deal with these and committed suicide. Which physical technique prepares them for battling these? None. But, through the physical training and proper philosophical guidance in training, they could have gained confidence and courage to battle their internal enemies.

Espscially where I instruct, I have mostly adult college-educated people as students that have white-collar jobs. I really believe office jobs are bad for your health, not just from sitting on your butt all day (physical), but also the stupid inter-office politics and relationships that people have to deal with that cause stress.

So, for many of my students, martial art training is a way to improve their physical health, but more importantly provide an outlet for their "internal enemies" and a way to gain skills to help them battle these stressors.

In a sense, martial arts training has evolved from the battlefields of 100 years ago for another purpose in modern society.

R. McLain

 

[monkey]

Si9nce some one quoted Bruce Lee,I will tell of his quote when aksed 1973 by Al Block.Some style become sport.Aikido,judo,I can go on & on,But still some are still combative!Jabbing fingers to the eyes,kicking to the groing.Now Im not knocking anything.But some started as a guess & be came law.They have no reguards for size-weight ect.If you truely want to exspress yourself!Which is very hard to do.You Must Train Every Part of Your body. Noted as highlites with capitals.Not as shouting as some say it is.

 

[bydand]

Just out of curiosity... Why, on a western board, do some many people look down on western traditions, arts and training methods? The west has been doing martial arts for a rather long time, and for most of us, western culture is OUR culture.

While I couldn't agree more with the general thought, I believe that we have a tendency to think EVERYTHING has to be modern/faster/improved for it to "work" for us. Yes the MA's have been practiced for a long time here, nobody can argue that most of the MA's we practice here, were OLD when Columbus bumped into a bit of dirt that came to be known as North America. Plus I think, IMHO, that the MA's are a whole package, not just different segments that can be picked through and trained in without the others. Sure somebody could pick-up just the fighting (martial) aspect and make it work just great, but the whole package has this great tapestery that adds depth and meaning to that aspect. Miss the rest, and you miss the "Art" of your MA.

Am I western in culture? Oh brother, I am "Wonder Bread and Skippy" but I LOVE the whole MA culture. Old Fashioned? I guess a lot of us are here! I would rather be "Old Fashioned" and have the surrounding blanket of a better understanding of the Art I love, than just be a great fighter and miss that portion. I truely believe this is one of those things you CAN have both: great "fighting" skills and the form/understanding. Ain't Life Grand!!

 

[mantis]

Just out of curiosity... Why, on a western board, do some many people look down on western traditions, arts and training methods? The west has been doing martial arts for a rather long time, and for most of us, western culture is OUR culture.

yeah, i noticed every single reply blamed the west. Which i think is completely true.
We are not trying to 'bash' western culture per say, but you have to realize that when the transfer of eastern arts (who are more common than western ones) to the west the arts lost quite a bit of their meaning. The westerners took what they liked, and obviously tossed away what they did not understand. Why did they not understand though? Either because of feeling superior to eastern cultures and therefore they should not be learning the eastern culture crap, or because they did not care to learn what it's about. Everytime a culture inherits something from another culture it loses a part of it depending of what the receiving culture accepts/rejects.

Again, we are discussing the arts, not the cultures. So I hope you do not get offended and feel like our goal is to offend your culture. The last thing i want to say (maybe i shouldnt) is what western traditions are you talking about? no offense, but west + tradition + culture in one sentence doesnt ring too many bells in my brain. Feel free to remind us. (im only joking)

 

[Andrew Green]

but you have to realize that when the transfer of eastern arts (who are more common than western ones)

I have my doubts about this, but ok.

to the west the arts lost quite a bit of their meaning. The westerners took what they liked, and obviously tossed away what they did not understand.

So... like the Okinawans did with Chinese arts? Or the japanese did with Okinawan arts? or the Koreans with a Japanese art?


[/quote]
Again, we are discussing the arts, not the cultures. So I hope you do not get offended and feel like our goal is to offend your culture. The last thing i want to say (maybe i shouldnt) is what western traditions are you talking about? no offense, but west + tradition + culture in one sentence doesnt ring too many bells in my brain. Feel free to remind us. (im only joking)[/quote]

Don't worry, not going to get offended, just tring to stick a different spin in. I have no problem with retaining culture as baggage, but what I do disagree with is the idea that taking a art and sticking a different culture over it is not a BAD thing.

Now, where does the line between culture and art get drawn? Terminology/Language? Training mentality? Training methods?

 

[Grenadier]

GuruJim1,

You do bring up a good point, that what people tend to see in terms of martial arts these days, is more of what's shown on television. Now that the UFC has its own series on television, and that the K1, et al., folks have their own exposure as well, that is what becomes the hot topic amongst the general populace, and not necessarily those in the martial arts community, be it traditional or modern.

Is this a bad thing? Not at all. Such shows have made many martial arts practitioners aware, that it never hurts to be well-rounded when it comes to the repetoire. Also, there are going to be a fair number of individuals who watch such things, and may have their interest piqued in the world of martial arts. After all, I would rather have someone training in a decent system (be it modern or traditional) than to be not training at all.

At the same time, though, good ol' fashioned traditional martial arts is still out there, and just as widespread, if not moreso, as they were in the past. These schools still teach using the same methods, and many aren't hesitant to adopt new techniques if they can validate their use. It's just a matter of looking carefully, and finding it, while not falling for the hype of television, etc.

The traditional martial arts have survived this long (and yes, here in the West) and as long as they do what they do, and stick with the system that got them here, they're going to continue to survive and flourish. While the exposure will never be what the more visible shows have, the foundation upon which these traditional systems is solid, and will survive the test of time.

 

[MJS]

I remember when I started training, the art in the Martial Arts was just as important as combat. In this is day of UFC and Pride Fighting it seems that the art is becoming lost. Most MMA is void of forms because of the thought that Kata wont work on the streets. Don't get me wrong I believe in a realistic fighting system as much as anyone, but I don't see as much importance but on practicing of the art.

I love practicing forms (Empty Hands or Weapons), and I enjoy practicing all those fancy kicks. I feel the Martial Arts is not just about destroying your oppenet, but the mastery of your body, mind, and soul. I love being able to amaze people with my forms, and to watch a skilled Martial Artist preform a Kata. I still see the art in Martial Arts, and this brings me to my question, "Am I Just Old Fashion"???

I wouldn't say you're old fashion Jim. Lately, I've notice that many who bash certain things, really don't have a good understanding of them. They form a poor understanding, and assume that because they can't find any value in it, because they can't make it work, because they haven't taken the time to really research what it is that they're talking about and even go so far as to find someone qualified enough to teach them the fine points, they in-turn feel the need to bash something.

Kata is only one small part of the arts, but nonetheless, its still an important part IMO. Are we going to fight someone with the exact movments in kata? Not at all, but applications can be drawn out and used. Again, it all comes down to knowing how to do it.

Mike

 

[matt.m]

I too am a dinosaur in the respect that I want to learn the traditional art. Look I take Tae Kwon Do for the forms and One Step Sparring etc. I love TKD the art. I hate TKD the sport. Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching TKD and Judo in the Olympics. However, I am smart enough to know there is a distinct difference between the two. The training is totally different.

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

The death of the art half of martial arts is the best thing to ever happen to them. Philosophy and mystic nonsense is less about teaching MA and more about filling time in a class with nothing better to offer. I want to learn martial arts for self defense and sport, not to take a refresher course in Ethics 101.

When it comes down to it, martial arts are about fighting, and when an art becomes so removed from that aspect that it's unrecognizable something is wrong. MMA has gone a long way towards killing the Kung Fu movie inspired BS in martial arts. Lets hope the job doesn't go unfinished.

 

[GuruJim1]

As a Combat Veteran, and Police Officer I believe realistic self-defense is a good idea. I have been called a barroom brawler art back in the day because of how I taught. My art is very combative that goes from Kicking Range into Striking Range into Offensive Trapping Range into Takedowns, and into Grappling. Many people have told me that my art looks very combative. However, the art isn't lost in my art. I put a big focus on Forms, and Personal Growth. My focus is on building a Martial Artist from the inside out and not just a fighter. I can't blame the western culture totally, but the human nature for good old violence. I just get tried of the guys that go around say, "your art sucks and to prove it I'm goina bet you up".


Funny story:
I had a BJJ guy come into my class to start something. He ran his mouth saying how he could whup my butt in seconds. I asked him to leave and he called me a coward. I ask him if I sparred him would he leave, he said yes. Being a grappler myself and he didn't know this since I was teaching a knife fighting class (grappling is apart of my art). He quickly took me down into a side mount. I produced my Tactical Folder (Training Lock Blade Knife) and sliced his carotid artery and stabbed him many times in the back. Not knowing I had a knife he continued to wrestle with me. All of a sudden got into the mount and I escaped the mount and him being a good grappler he quickly got me into his guard. I started stabbing his stomach and chest. He blow up once he saw I had a knife. He told me that is against the rules. AGAINST THE RULES??? I thought this was going to be a street fight (Which he died in)??? I told him if got the best of me in a street fight and was strangling me, then I have a fear for my life and I could respond with deadly force. If he was fighting an EX-CON then he doesn't care anyway and would stab you because he wouldn't want to lose a fight. I pointed out that once real reality came in the door, he died. I then asked him to leave. He left without any more argument.:mp5:

 

[tempus]

Interesting conversation. It may be also how things are viewed. In some of the classes we work on ki exercises. I have a problem with them. Some people look at them from the mind\body idea, but when I look at them I see physics at work. I am able to come to the same outcome, but in a different view.

I also watched a class where a Kata was being performed and they were doing them as fast as they could. I then saw some TV show where the lady was in Japan looking for a kata and these masters did them slow, but you could see the power in there body as they did them. Not sure which is the correct way, but I preferred the way these masters did them.

I also caught a weapon's demonstartion and the loud yelling turned me off from it. Is the yelling at the top of your lungs a wetern thing?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I too am a dinosaur in the respect that I want to learn the traditional art. Look I take Tae Kwon Do for the forms and One Step Sparring etc.

One step sparring is still taught...COOL!!

I use to train TDK waaaaay back before the Olympics got a hold of it and 1 step sparring was great.

I agree nothing wrong with the sports side, I think you miss a lot of the art, particularly the mental training and philosophy when you forget the forms that are part of it

But being a Dinosaur I would think that