Alternative Structure to Black Belt Ranks

[Mark Lynn]

One of my big issues with dan rankings is that at some point they get rediculous. How many stripes do you need on your belt in order to earn respect now days? Or maybe respect could be earned by something else...perhaps skill?

I totally agree here. I mean at first 5th dans were high rank, than it was elevated to 10th dans, now there are 12-15th dans. Surpreme Grand masters, Great Grandmasters, Grandmasters etc. etc. But because some people make it outlandish doesn't mean it is inherently wrong having a dan rank system. It's not good or bad it is what you make of it.

My whole thought in revamping the dan system for my school would be to step outside the box and really take a look at what it is we are doing. I agree with the poster above, by shodan, which takes about five years in my dojang, you should have enough basis to be self motivated. I should be a good enough teacher that they could still feel like they could come to me and learn. If they didn't feel that way, then maybe they really should go somewhere else....

I totally agree. I was not saying that you need to have a dan rank system so that you can keep students in your school or that it is to be used as a carrot on a stick. If you are wanting to think outside of the box, I would look at what you are teaching first instead of adjusting dan rank.

If any of my students are chasing belts or ranks as gups, I would hope that I could help them transcend this...

And, Boar Man, my preshodan material is pretty well solidified. I haven't been teaching long, so I don't have any dan students as of yet...

Ok I misunderstood, I thought you were thinking of changing things just prior to having students getting ready for a shodan test, which I think is a mistake. However if the students are a ways a way from shodan rank then if you are going to change things now is a time to do it.

I been through changing things on my students and I screwed up, I've had things changed on me and it was very confusing, and I've taken classes where the instructor was good but he didn't have his system together and yet was still charging me and the other student $$$ to be his guinea pigs. As one instructor to another I didn't want you make the same mistake I did.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

1) How many people stop training after BB? Many times people get their BB and then they reached their goal and they stop training, now how serious is this?

In my opinion, if they reach that level and still want to quit afterwards, then why would I stop them? This phenomenon is partly caused by the belt ranking system itself, doing away with it would mean that there isn't some plateau people feel they have reached. There is just learning, and training. When you've learned something well enough, then start learning something new. If that's too boring for someone, then they probably aren't really into martial arts

At some point, the carrot and stick of colored belts needs to graduate into a genuine love of practice, a desire to learn and get better. If this love and desire is not there, then you'll only get so far. Once you reach "black belt", whatever that means, in my opinion you should be at the point where you are compeltely self-motivated. If you aren't really motivated, then why continue? Find something to do that you like.

I don't see the belt rank system as a carrot and a stick. How many students start out as white belts and drop out after the first couple of months of classes? Out of how many hundreds of students actually make it to BB? 1 maybe if the school is hardcore, maybe 10 if the school is a Mc Dojo. My point was that shodan isn't a majic time when the student is deemed a serious student. I have seen more serious students at times below shodan than the BBs. I believe some people have the love for the arts the first day they come into class, others it might take months or years. Some will never get it even when they get the BB.

We are in agreement on the training attitude. To me most people don't stick around due to trying to achieve a belt, they are either interested in the arts or they aren't. However they will have met some goal internally that we as instructors often times will not even know about and they leave. Or we didn't do our jobs right teaching them and they go somewhere else. But belt ranks aren't the real issue IMHO.

2) I agree with focusing on training but that requires guidence, a plan, and goals to reach that plan.

Not having a belt ranking system doesn't mean that there aren't goals or a plan. There still will be a curriculum, a logical order in which material is presented. For some people, the goal might just be to learn as much material as they can. Eventually, the goal is not only to achieve mastery of the material and improve fighting skills, but to attain self-mastery as well. How do you know when you've got there?...you don't. we're always all in the process of getting there. This is what martial arts practice can be about. It's a never ending journey. There's no 10th dan at the top of life where you can say you've completely mastered everything.

A belt only represents the goal of learning and being able to demonstrate some skill. When you can perform the first kata and understand how to use the techniques in it, then you can learn the next kata. Why do you need a belt to represent that?

Actually I agree with you. You don't need a belt, a Tee shirt, a different colored pant, a different uniform etc. etc. If your goal is just to have every one working out and learning and that's it.

Traditionally you didn't have the belt ranks in karate till it was adapted from Judo as a way to denote ranks as the art became more popular and moved out of the backyard dojos and into the schools and universities. So no, you don't need belts.

3) Paying respect to one another, paying respect to your training hall (or area) transends rank. I mean if your are refering to paying respect to your instructor fellow students etc. etc. as a formality than I disagree that it should be left for only the lower ranks.

Paying respect is not a formality. But there are different ways to pay repsect. We don't need to pretend that we're Japanese, or Chinese, or Korean, if we're not. We don't need to make a show of it, with special uniforms/costumes and patches and standing in a perfect line like a military organization.
I also disagree that respect is only for the lower ranks (in other words I agree with you), the most senior should display the most respect for everyone, and be the example for everyone.

I agree with you here as well. We don't have to pretend that we are Korean, Japanese, etc. etc. However if you take this arguement to it's logical conclusion why would you keep the name of your art as a Korean art like Tang Soo Do, or a Japanese art such as Shotokan, if you are doing away with the uniforms, belt ranks, and such.

Been there done that as I've stated in a previous post on this thread. My karate instructors dojo was quite different. We didn't wear stripes on our belts and I still don't. However wearing stripes on belts aren't a bad thing either. Sure helps in lining students up.

If someone's biggest concern is how to line up students, I think they need to reevaluate their priorities

Good one. Ok lining up the students (especially the young ones) in military order does help in teaching, also it helps the kids to learn to obey rules. Reinforcing life skills for them. But for adults, I don't think they need it like the kids do.

The problem here is that groups change constantly. A group of dedicated students can shifts with the changing of the economic tides, schooling, etc. etc. So when a new student comes into the group, ranks help that student fit into place. Ranks also let the student see that everyone started out where they are and they can get to the coveted BB or brown belt rank too if they try hard enough, also it helps them almost put a time frame to their training, "wow in 6 months I can be like him/her".

As I see it, I don't want to put a time frame on training. I want to give the impression that it is a lifelong pursuit, and the goal is the training itself, not a belt or a grade. I don't want a new student to be coveting a belt. It's natural for a new student to look at the more experienced, and want to have what they have. Maybe they covet their techniques, or their skill...and that's fine. Belts are just arbitrary designators which have come to hold so much importance in the public perception of martial arts that I see them now as a distraction, a detractor, from focused training.
It would be best for the new student to covet the self discipline, the strength of character, and the work ethic of the advanced students. They don't need to wear anything special to see those things, and to know that is is good.

Ok I see your point. Rereading my post I can see where you got idea about the time in training. I don't put a time frame on training, when the students learn the material then they test. I test about 3X per year but I'm flexible as to when. I want the students to desire the proper attitudes and I try and reinforce this in class. At the same time the longer the student is in class and the harder they work the higher belt rank they become. The newer students see that and it can be a motivater.

Overall if I were going to revamp a system that I teach, I would go after the meat and potatoes so to speak, the core curiculum. Instead of worrying about belt ranks. And if the core curicculum is changed and it no longer represents the art I once taught then I would totally revamp the belt structure as well and really change things.

Because if I claim to teach say Tang Soo Do and I do away with the uniforms, the belt ranks, etc. etc. are you teaching Tang Soo Do? What about when other Tang Soo Do students come in and say "What the Heck is this?", when they seek you out for training? You tend to isolate yourself this way. What about tournaments? Do you have the students show up in jeans and a Tee Shirt and say well I have been training for 5 years so I'll compete with the black belts? I think it creates confusion this way. And ultimately does a disservice to your students.

Rank isn't really illusionary. Generally it is something you worked for and sacrificed your time, effort and money (I'm speaking about training fees)for.

Maybe illusionary wasn't the right word...ranks are arbitrary. Outside of each particular school or organization, they are meaningless. You didn't work hard to get a piece of cloth, you worked hard and sacrficed time and effort to get better at martial arts. And you payed because sensei needs to have money to keep the school running, so he can keep teaching you things. The ranking system is just the way most martial arts schools obtain those fees and try to keep people there as long as possible.

I agree ranks are arbitrary. And they are useful to use in marketing yourself.

I didn't work hard to get multiple BBs to wear them all around my waist at once, I wear no stripes to advertise what degree I am. I worked and studied in the arts for my own enjoyment. But outside of the systems I studied I'm a white belt in any other system.

But belt ranks or the abuse of belt ranks I agree have become a marketing method of increasing money for the dojo. Which is why we have yellow, gold, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, red, red black, and sometimes camo, along with various half stripe degrees all in an effort to raise money for the dojo by increasing belt fees. But again I don't think the belt ranks are inherently bad, rather it is the abuse of the system that is bad.

This is the idealized view of things, obviously. If your concern is keeping fees coming in from a pool of rotating students, so that the school can stay open, then the belt rank system works just fine. But this has nothing to do with actual martial arts practice which is going on, it's a business model.
If you weren't trying to make money off of the school, then you don't need that belt rank thing. Maybe people keep it because it's been the Japanese tradition for the last eighty years or so, and they feel it's important to keep it "Japanese". As the model in the link shows (and any number of martial arts systems from other cultures and eras), having ranks isn't necessary to having organized martial arts practice.

I agree it is a business model, but is it a bad one? I don't think so. It is a military based, top down model as well. But again I don't think it is bad.

My instructor taught us for free at his house/his dojo. They still work out there for free. We had tests for ranks for free. However my instructor didn't support himself teaching at that time. We didn't even wear belts in workouts unless it was deemed formal. So I get the whole you don't need a belt thing. I agree.

However if you are teaching for a living, or earning an income off of it, you can still have a belt rank system and not abuse it. And if you really don't want one than really think outside of the box and get rid of all of the non esssential oriental trappings as well. Create your own method of grading requirements, your own way. Because ultimately that is what every person who has made an impact on the arts has gone their own way in one way or another.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Just FYI

In my previous post before this one I qouted Jim Gang who was posting/qouting a previous post of mine. His comments to my original comments are in bold in the box. My comments to his original comments were in plain type in the qoute boxes and he was answering me.

Sorry

 

[Jin Gang]

Because if I claim to teach say Tang Soo Do and I do away with the uniforms, the belt ranks, etc. etc. are you teaching Tang Soo Do? What about when other Tang Soo Do students come in and say "What the Heck is this?", when they seek you out for training? You tend to isolate yourself this way. What about tournaments? Do you have the students show up in jeans and a Tee Shirt and say well I have been training for 5 years so I'll compete with the black belts? I think it creates confusion this way. And ultimately does a disservice to your students.

You're completey right about this, it may be an isolating act to change things so much. For myself, if I were beginning my teaching, I wouldn't be concerned about tournaments. Someone who said "what the heck is this?" when they came in, if they stayed for a few minutes, would see exactly what it is...serious training. If they didn't want the training without the modern "traditional" trappings, then they wouldn't stay, and I'd accept that. But then, I don't practice a style which is competition/tournament reliant, so not going to tournaments wouldn't be unexpected for me. If it was important for your style to compete, then you'd have to keep the ranks, at least on paper, in order to fit into the greater organization.

I agree, the belt system isn't all bad. It was a good idea, which is why everyone adopted it after judo, and even non-Japanese styles. It doesn't necessarily mean the school is too commercial. I also know someone who teaches informally, in his house and out of a garage, and uses belt ranks to mark people's progress (which they don't wear too much). This is his tradition, and the way his father does it, so that's how he does it.

If you're already using belt rankings in an established school, you can't just get rid of them. but if you're starting from scratch, I think there are more options. Someone who's going to go against the established tradition for martial arts schools would have to be prepared to have people walk away because they don't want to try something "different".

 

[Mark Lynn]

You're completey right about this, it may be an isolating act to change things so much. For myself, if I were beginning my teaching, I wouldn't be concerned about tournaments. Someone who said "what the heck is this?" when they came in, if they stayed for a few minutes, would see exactly what it is...serious training. If they didn't want the training without the modern "traditional" trappings, then they wouldn't stay, and I'd accept that. But then, I don't practice a style which is competition/tournament reliant, so not going to tournaments wouldn't be unexpected for me. If it was important for your style to compete, then you'd have to keep the ranks, at least on paper, in order to fit into the greater organization. ".

IMO this is the crux of the situation. If you are part of a style (TKD, Karate, Gung Fu, insert style name here____) and it has a larger organization than if you change to much of the style, or what you wear, belt rankings etc. etc. than you do your students and the public a disservice.

Because if you advertise you are teaching X style people from X style will be expecting and paying for instruction in X style, not the teachers puesdo XYZ style. Tournaments are just one minor issue on this, what happens to the student that relocates and decides to look up another school of X style?

The hard core training isn't the issue, it's if the student is being lead to believe they are learning on thing and they aren't. The traditional trappings are just the way to fit into uniformaity of the larger organization and of course marketing.

If you're already using belt rankings in an established school, you can't just get rid of them. but if you're starting from scratch, I think there are more options. Someone who's going to go against the established tradition for martial arts schools would have to be prepared to have people walk away because they don't want to try something "different".

I totally agree here.