All kinds of requirements to rip students off! Is this normal?

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes but most schools, while there may not be "teaching" allow students to form "study groups" where senior students help people practice what has been taught to date. Have you asked if such groups exist?

This is what I did for my students for the times when I'm not there.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Hmm took you off my ignore list when I saw you had started a new thread (was not logged on). Figured with the break you were gone you had actually started training, and were reporting your progress. Apparently not. Back to ignoring

 

[Juany118]

Who the hell told you that? First off it doesn't suck for self defense. It is very viable for self defense, and second don't listen to people when it comes X style sucks and y style is better.

That kind of thinking will not help you, right now you literally nothing about anything,you have to experience these things before you can even come close to an accurate and valid opinion.

Yeah I was trying to tell him elsewhere that, for the most part, there is no "better" or "worse" MA if they were created to fight other MAs so if a technique didn't work for you it is possibly a valid answer to say "you did it wrong.". 3 things are the primary sources of failure imo, if the instructor is a good one...

1. You made a mistake
2. The other guy was better than you.
3. Your skill was equal but the other guy was physically superior to you (size, strength, speed, conditioning etc)

 

[Ironbear24]

Yeah I was trying to tell him elsewhere that, for the most part, there is no "better" or "worse" MA if they were created to fight other MAs so if a technique didn't work for you it is possibly a valid answer to say "you did it wrong.". 3 things are the primary sources of failure imo, if the instructor is a good one...

1. You made a mistake
2. The other guy was better than you.
3. Your skill was equal but the other guy was physically superior to you (size, strength, speed, conditioning etc)

Exactly, some people believe there are better styles and is a "best style". Those people tend to be I'll informed or drank too much of the kool aid.

 

[drop bear]

Exactly, some people believe there are better styles and is a "best style". Those people tend to be I'll informed or drank too much of the kool aid.

So any method anybody comes up with is as valid as any other method.

Where is that ww3 guy when people are saying this?

Because people were apparently incorrectly saying his method was flawed.

 

[Ironbear24]

So any method anybody comes up with is as valid as any other method.

Where is that ww3 guy when people are saying this?

Because people were apparently incorrectly saying his method was flawed.

There is a difference between a legitimate fighting system that has been tested time and time again vs some random **** someone makes up on the spot.

 

[drop bear]

There is a difference between a legitimate fighting system that has been tested time and time again vs some random **** someone makes up on the spot.

Not if all styles are equal.

 

[Ironbear24]

Not if all styles are equal.

You're splitting hairs. You know what I mean.

 

[drop bear]

You're splitting hairs. You know what I mean.

No idea what you mean.

If there are styles that are unequal. How are styles equal.

 

[Ironbear24]

No idea what you mean.

If there are styles that are unequal. How are styles equal.

You're being unBEARable and that's normally my thing.

Anyway I guess I was wrong. I'll realobarate, the majority of fighting styles, mainly the ones that have been around for a long time therefore stood the test of time and have been tried and tested time and time again. Are pretty equal, and success vs other styles will always depend on the practitioner and not in the style itself.

 

[drop bear]

You're being unBEARable and that's normally my thing.

Anyway I guess I was wrong. I'll realobarate, the majority of fighting styles, mainly the ones that have been around for a long time therefore stood the test of time and have been tried and tested time and time again. Are pretty equal, and success vs other styles will always depend on the practitioner and not in the style itself.

So if a crap style lasts long enough it becomes a valid style.

 

[Ironbear24]

It won't last long if it's crap.

 

[Juany118]

It won't last long if it's crap.

Ahh but the "MMA is best" people will try to tell you otherwise.

 

[Ironbear24]

Ahh but the "MMA is best" people will try to tell you otherwise.

And they also tell me ed hardy and tapout shirts make you look cool. I been steadily worrying less and less what others think and it has resulted in me enjoying what I do more and more.

 

[Blindside]

It won't last long if it's crap.

Unfortunately there isn't much of a selection process in martial arts these days. The sport martial arts have a great method of testing out there material in a competitive method, everyone who doesn't play in those arenas has no such guarantees. The crap that is out there is unbelievable, and long lived, the very survival and continued propagation of the kiddie karate franchises attest to that.

 

[Ironbear24]

Unfortunately there isn't much of a selection process in martial arts these days. The sport martial arts have a great method of testing out there material in a competitive method, everyone who doesn't play in those arenas has no such guarantees. The crap that is out there is unbelievable, and long lived, the very survival and continued propagation of the kiddie karate franchises attest to that.

That's the thing though, karate has been tried and tested countless times and just when it is considered obsolete or inferior it always comes back and becomes relevant again.

Just because there exists bad examples doesn't make the entire art bad. I can name two shitty mma gyms off the top of my head ( I won't because that's against the rules), but that doesn't make mma or any of its arts bad simply because there are bad places for it.

 

[Blindside]

That's the thing though, karate has been tried and tested countless times and just when it is considered obsolete or inferior it always comes back and becomes relevant again.

Just because there exists bad examples doesn't make the entire art bad. I can name two shitty mma gyms off the top of my head ( I won't because that's against the rules), but that doesn't make mma or any of its arts bad simply because there are bad places for it.

No one or two or five gyms/kwoons/dojos/whatever prove or disprove the validity of an entire art. How do you test the validity of what a MMA gym teaches? You ask who the fighters are and what their fight records are. Oh, you don't produce fighters? Hmmm, that should raise red flags.

How do you do it for a karate studio? How do you do it for Joe Bob's Tactical Fisticuffs that just opened up with all the new evolved fighting method?

 

[Ironbear24]

No one or two or five gyms/kwoons/dojos/whatever prove or disprove the validity of an entire art. How do you test the validity of what a MMA gym teaches? You ask who the fighters are and what their fight records are. Oh, you don't produce fighters? Hmmm, that should raise red flags.

How do you do it for a karate studio? How do you do it for Joe Bob's Tactical Fisticuffs that just opened up with all the new evolved fighting method?

I guess our rows of medals and attics full of trophies have something to do with it.

 

[Juany118]

No one or two or five gyms/kwoons/dojos/whatever prove or disprove the validity of an entire art. How do you test the validity of what a MMA gym teaches? You ask who the fighters are and what their fight records are. Oh, you don't produce fighters? Hmmm, that should raise red flags.

How do you do it for a karate studio? How do you do it for Joe Bob's Tactical Fisticuffs that just opened up with all the new evolved fighting method?

That is why to me you should NOT only look for a Martial art that fits you but an instructor that is appropriate. Below is a rough approximation of how I did things and it took me almost a year to find a guy that wasnt a 35-45 minute drive away that taught Inosanto Kali and as a combative to boot. If my Guro/Sifu ever retires I will like be forced to drive that far because it's only other place that teaches it as a combative in the area. Critiques of the following process are appreciated.

Before you even try the school out...

1. Look for a Martial art that was designed for combat/real fighting vs point sparing.

2. Talk to the instructor. Don't ask him what he teaches you should know that before calling/emailing. Rather be honest and say something like I did. I made it clear to numerous instructors that I was a LEO looking for martial arts training that first and foremost had practical street applications. I lucked out maybe in that I had 3 instructors that said yes (the two Kali and one KM) but a number that were honest the other way as well. Some may have hedged and said "well it can be used for self defense" but they were honest and said that for my application, not so much.

3. Listen to how they describe their style of teaching. Do they say "street encounters" or "combatives" vs "self defense", "competition" and "discipline". If they say things similar to the first 2 ask them if they teach outside the school. If they say they do seminars and blocks of instruction for local, state or federal LE (which can be verified rather easily) you are probably on the right track. Don't be afraid to ask if they have experience in real defense situations.

I say this one because if they teach stuff to LEOs it will get around if its crap on the street and the contracts will dry up.

Try them out, most schools let you at least for a class or two. If they do...

1. Do they have tween or younger black belts? That imo is a red flag.
2. Do they spar when you are there? If not ask their rules. If their sparring is point based and stopped, to me this is a red flag. If however the sparring is all out for seniors, (controlled for juniors), and then after time, safety stop, tko or submission etc, an evaluation is done this is a good sign because fights don't stop for points. Example when we spar with Knives in Kali we put chalk on the knives. Our uniforms are black. After a sparring session the Guro/Sifu evaluates who got cut more, where and how severely based on the chalk marks but during the fight it is all out. If you aren't breathing heavy you did something wrong. Yes we wear gloves, forearm guards eye protection and helmets (if the head has been declared a viable target.)
3. What techniques are taught. Just about every Martial art has "cheap shots." Are they taught or simply talked about?

There are other things as well, some you may not discover for weeks or months after you start, but these I think are a good starting point to determine if you should sign that contract.

 

[Blindside]

I guess our rows of medals and attics full of trophies have something to do with it.

So competition is your measurement of how to judge good karate? I am totally fine with that but I suspect many karateka would disagree. And would note that most of the competition that many karate schools (or TKD or Kenpo or whatever) now compete in is a far cry from what the scrum that is a real fight.