All kinds of requirements to rip students off! Is this normal?

[Gerry Seymour]

But I heard judo sucks for self defense. Does it not?

I simply refuse to pay monthly fees if you get no training at all for 1,5 months. This is crazy.

And the fees are pretty high. It's 45 euros. You train 4 times per months. This means every session costs 10 euros.
This is pretty crazy when you think about it.

That's not terribly expensive, at least not for the states. A school that doesn't have 100 students probably wouldn't be able to stay open charging that little, what with the cost of rent, utilities, insurance, etc. There'd be no income for the instructor.

As for Judo and self-defense, it's the first art I actually had to use for defending myself, and it worked quite well.

 

[Azulx]

Yeah man I feel you on that. Uniforms,psshhh, what are we in high school? You and I both know that uniforms are incredibly unrealistic for self-defense. Like who wears their gi around in public? I rather wear my real clothes, because that what I will be wearing if I get jumped. Judo, that's bull. Try Amerido-te. It's incredible. Honestly you should only be training MMA in a cage no uniforms it's the most realistic. Juw-jitsu is where it's at as well. But, and this is is a BIG but, only juw-jitsu if it's FREE. If they charge it's McBlowjo and those are the worst kind of dojos. The one's that charge, stay far way from those. I heard the best street juw-jitsu instructors are found in alley ways, completely free. Look for guy in the trench coat, that's Sifu. Tell Sifu you want to learn fo free. He tell you yes just for the price of an organ. Trust me bro that's where it's at. If all else fails, Master Ken is getting his 13th Dan in Amerido-te and has over 2 years experience so he will probably give you the best bang for your buck too.

 

[kehcorpz]

But these are not uniforms.

In the wing chun schools you have to wear white shirts and black pants. That's what they wrote me in the emails as replies.

But you can't just buy yourself a normal white shirt and black pants. Noooh, you need to buy their white shirts and black pants from the store which have little symbols

and these shirts are way more expensive and overpriced.

And their protection equipment is very likely also much more expensive than on the free market. I'd rather buy equipment where it's the cheapest.

What if their stuff sucks and comes from China and contains all kinds of toxins? I bet they buy cheap and sell high.

They are definitely not doing this to save the students from having to look online for good equpiment....

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But these are not uniforms.

In the wing chun schools you have to wear white shirts and black pants. That's what they wrote me in the emails as replies.

But you can't just buy yourself a normal white shirt and black pants. Noooh, you need to buy their white shirts and black pants from the store which have little symbols

and these shirts are way more expensive and overpriced.

And their protection equipment is very likely also much more expensive than on the free market. I'd rather buy equipment where it's the cheapest.

What if their stuff sucks and comes from China and contains all kinds of toxins? I bet they buy cheap and sell high.

They are definitely not doing this to save the students from having to look online for good equpiment....

Yes, they are uniforms. They may not be "traditional", but if everyone's wearing the same thing, that's a uniform. It's what "uniform" means.

And you may be looking at a dissimilar shirt for cost comparison. If I were choosing shirts for training, I'd choose something significantly beefier than a "normal" shirt. And it would end up costing more - perhaps a lot more. If it's twice as expensive, but lasts 5 times as long, it's a better deal for the students. Plus, maybe some marketing for the school, which gets more training partners and keeps costs down.

You say they are "definitely not doing this to save the students money". How do you know. I buy uniforms at wholesale and sell them below retail to ensure my students buy quality gear. Same with sparring gear. You're assuming something not yet in evidence. You've even had another instructor emphasize that they require students buy their gear for insurance and safety purposes.

Either go check it out in person and make an informed decision, or just quit assuming and go do something else with your time.

No excuse for what you're doing.

 

[Danny T]

But these are not uniforms.

In the wing chun schools you have to wear white shirts and black pants. That's what they wrote me in the emails as replies.

But you can't just buy yourself a normal white shirt and black pants. Noooh, you need to buy their white shirts and black pants from the store which have little symbols

and these shirts are way more expensive and overpriced.

And their protection equipment is very likely also much more expensive than on the free market. I'd rather buy equipment where it's the cheapest.

What if their stuff sucks and comes from China and contains all kinds of toxins? I bet they buy cheap and sell high.

They are definitely not doing this to save the students from having to look online for good equpiment....

Welcome to the World.
1. The world isn't here for you.
2. That includes the Martial Arts world as well.
3. It will cost you $$$ for anything of value.
4. In the martial arts it will cost you time, money, physical effort, mental effort, loyalty, respect of self and others, discipline, equipment, travel, and much more.

It is easy to find excuses or to find fault when that is what you are looking for. No place is perfect, no instructor is perfect, no student is either.

 

[kehcorpz]

To me it's pretty logical they're not doing this out of love for mankind.

One school even wrote that you probably need more than 1 set of uniform cause during training you sweat a lot.

How silly is this? Ever heard of washing machines? Why do I need 3 pairs or more when I can just wash the stuff after a training?

This is just plain silly.

Yeah, I'll directly buy 10 pairs. No wait, better make it 15. Do you accept credit card?

 

[kehcorpz]

I forgot that the schools also have mandatory exams which, of course, also cost extra money.

I just want to learn to defend myself and not get a diploma. This is once again just to rip off people.

 

[Danny T]

To me it's pretty logical they're not doing this out of love for mankind.

One school even wrote that you probably need more than 1 set of uniform cause during training you sweat a lot.

How silly is this? Ever heard of washing machines? Why do I need 3 pairs or more when I can just wash the stuff after a training?

This is just plain silly.

Yeah, I'll directly buy 10 pairs. No wait, better make it 15. Do you accept credit card?

Hey they let you know up front you probably need more than 1 set of uniforms. That is better than you finding out afterwards. We have students who train every day. It may be hard for you to understand or even believe but they actually appreciate having more than one uniform. Some even do a couple of classes a day and want clean dry clothes for their next class.
Yeah that is just plain silly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To me it's pretty logical they're not doing this out of love for mankind.

One school even wrote that you probably need more than 1 set of uniform cause during training you sweat a lot.

How silly is this? Ever heard of washing machines? Why do I need 3 pairs or more when I can just wash the stuff after a training?

This is just plain silly.

Yeah, I'll directly buy 10 pairs. No wait, better make it 15. Do you accept credit card?

"Probably" means a recommendation. Don't think you need it, don't buy them until you're sure.

You're still making excuses. Those will get you absolutely nowhere anywhere in life.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I forgot that the schools also have mandatory exams which, of course, also cost extra money.

I just want to learn to defend myself and not get a diploma. This is once again just to rip off people.

Again, not necessarily. Some charge too much for that, some (like a school I used to train in) just do it to recoup for the time and cost of testing, belts, certificates, etc.

Personally, I build that into my fees for now. I may change my mind later.

If you don't want ranks, find a school that doesn't have them. They are fairly traditional in many arts, and most follow the traditions of their arts. That's not a rip-off, and ranks do serve a useful purpose (though they are certainly not necessary).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To me it's pretty logical they're not doing this out of love for mankind.

One school even wrote that you probably need more than 1 set of uniform cause during training you sweat a lot.

How silly is this? Ever heard of washing machines? Why do I need 3 pairs or more when I can just wash the stuff after a training?

This is just plain silly.

Yeah, I'll directly buy 10 pairs. No wait, better make it 15. Do you accept credit card?

Oh, and I personally have 3 uniforms. I teach twice a week. Do the math - that's more uniforms than I have classes. It's just to make sure I always have a clean one (including a spare, in case of seminars, etc.), without having to do a load of laundry every time. In my entire training career, I've ALWAYS had at least two uniforms in rotation.

 

[JR 137]

Staying here and constantly posting about how bad every school and art around you are does have a solid benefit - you've saved plenty of instructors many headaches.

If you're this nit picky now, I can't imagine how bad you'll be once you step foot in a school. I never thought I'd say this to anyone, but... I don't think the martial arts are for you. You should endlessly contemplate a different hobby.

 

[Juany118]

The OP has been at this for weeks and weeks, looking for excuses not to train instead just asking questions on here. I doubt this place is how he says, it's just another excuse not to train or even start training.

I wouldn't say that. I think what he is doing is first, looking for a school that caters to him like high end service industries, say an expensive restaurant, but at a bargain price.

Second he doesn't want to do what many of us did. First many of us have exposure to numerous arts. We might have said "damn that was a waste of 6 months at the school" but we have said exposure. When we finally found the right fit of art AND teacher, it could have taken years. I think he honestly wants to find a place to settle down an learn BUT wants to do so without the growing pains. In other words they came here hoping to avoid the hurdles many of us have already overcome.

The problem is there MUST be growing pains. Everyone is physically and mentally different so what works for me may be a square peg to their round hole. Next the teacher. Any martial art experience can be made, or broken, by the teacher.

 

[kuniggety]

But I heard judo sucks for self defense. Does it not?

I simply refuse to pay monthly fees if you get no training at all for 1,5 months. This is crazy.

And the fees are pretty high. It's 45 euros. You train 4 times per months. This means every session costs 10 euros.
This is pretty crazy when you think about it.

Yeah, because getting good at grabbing people and throwing to the ground, choking them out, or breaking their limbs isn't beneficial at all for self defense.

$60 (~55 euros) is a typical going rate for once a week in the US. That's the price of a few pizzas. Sooooo expensive.

The 6 week break while still collecting tuition is a little bunk to me though.

 

[Azulx]

@kehcorpz I can't tell if you are joking or not, but if you aren't I'll put a couple things into perspective for you. I started my first formal MA training about 2 years ago. My first art was Tae Kwon Do/ Korean Karate. I had to pay a $50 lifetime membership fee, which included a "free" uniform. This uniform was a 6 oz. white gi, that whole sales for about $18. That's right I payed $50 for an $18 gi. Do I care no, because it's a business. The classes were 2 times a week, for $75. That is actually the average price of schools in my area. Some TKD schools were up to $150 a month. Then I got very very VERY lucky. My instructor left the school and started his own club at a Recreation Center. There he charged $20 a month for 3 times a week. Then I bought two gis for $85 one was a 8 oz and the other was a 10 oz. Those uniforms were much better and now I don't have to worry about washing just one uniform. We also allow the use of our club shirt instead of the jacket it's $15 not bad for a shirt. The my luck continued. I met a guy who volunteers at a local gym and teaches self-defense jiu-jitsu for no cost. All I had to do was buy Jiu-Jitsu Gi, this was $50. So uniforms are pretty regular. Gym fees are regular. What are you even willing to pay? Are you even willing to pay? My range would be no more than $200 a month and at least 4 classes a week. If I was to join a commercial school and not a small MA club.

 

[Tez3]

I wouldn't say that. I think what he is doing is first, looking for a school that caters to him like high end service industries, say an expensive restaurant, but at a bargain price.

Second he doesn't want to do what many of us did. First many of us have exposure to numerous arts. We might have said "damn that was a waste of 6 months at the school" but we have said exposure. When we finally found the right fit of art AND teacher, it could have taken years. I think he honestly wants to find a place to settle down an learn BUT wants to do so without the growing pains. In other words they came here hoping to avoid the hurdles many of us have already overcome.

The problem is there MUST be growing pains. Everyone is physically and mentally different so what works for me may be a square peg to their round hole. Next the teacher. Any martial art experience can be made, or broken, by the teacher.

Have you read all his posts on all his threads, I have which is what leads me to say what I did.

 

[Juany118]

Have you read all his posts on all his threads, I have which is what leads me to say what I did.

Oh I have, as such I have come to one of two conclusions, he is either a troll OR waiting for someone to tell him "this martial art and these techniques are the secret sauce...find a place that teaches this...". Everything else, if not a troll, is a person who appears to be looking for an excuse not to take a chance himself and learn by experience (and cash) what art or teacher in his area works for him. I have little doubt in either case that he engages in hyperbole to justify the inaction however.

I basically see the questions as a product of our internet age.
1. Expect product reviews on-line to tell you what to buy. (Us)
2. Expect some place to provide a steep discount vs the others (the actual providers.)

The problem is we all study the art today that we do because it fits us so the reviews are suspect and you will not find big differences in price on brick and mortar swords, which is what Martial Arts schools are.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, because getting good at grabbing people and throwing to the ground, choking them out, or breaking their limbs isn't beneficial at all for self defense.

$60 (~55 euros) is a typical going rate for once a week in the US. That's the price of a few pizzas. Sooooo expensive.

The 6 week break while still collecting tuition is a little bunk to me though.

By my estimation, he's not actually still collecting tuition. The OP refers to an annual payment. If the school is closed for 6 weeks, I don't see how you can manage to pay for the entire year and not include those 6 weeks - that's just how an annual fee works. Presumably (and it's an assumption, yes) the annual fee is to cover 46 weeks, rather than 52.

 

[drop bear]

@kehcorpz I can't tell if you are joking or not, but if you aren't I'll put a couple things into perspective for you. I started my first formal MA training about 2 years ago. My first art was Tae Kwon Do/ Korean Karate. I had to pay a $50 lifetime membership fee, which included a "free" uniform. This uniform was a 6 oz. white gi, that whole sales for about $18. That's right I payed $50 for an $18 gi. Do I care no, because it's a business. The classes were 2 times a week, for $75. That is actually the average price of schools in my area. Some TKD schools were up to $150 a month. Then I got very very VERY lucky. My instructor left the school and started his own club at a Recreation Center. There he charged $20 a month for 3 times a week. Then I bought two gis for $85 one was a 8 oz and the other was a 10 oz. Those uniforms were much better and now I don't have to worry about washing just one uniform. We also allow the use of our club shirt instead of the jacket it's $15 not bad for a shirt. The my luck continued. I met a guy who volunteers at a local gym and teaches self-defense jiu-jitsu for no cost. All I had to do was buy Jiu-Jitsu Gi, this was $50. So uniforms are pretty regular. Gym fees are regular. What are you even willing to pay? Are you even willing to pay? My range would be no more than $200 a month and at least 4 classes a week. If I was to join a commercial school and not a small MA club.

We are $120 a month. 6 days a week. No holidays. We trained on Christmas.

 

[Grenadier]

To me it's pretty logical they're not doing this out of love for mankind.

Schools sell merchandise at a slightly higher price, in order to bring money into the school. Monthly rent doesn't take care of itself, and I highly doubt that the electric company and water works will decide not to charge you anything.

A school isn't going to be any good to anyone, if it goes out of business.

Sure, you could probably buy your own uniforms from the usual bulk sources (AWMA, Century, etc), and save a few bucks. However, the school's owner would probably benefit a lot more, if you simply bought from him / her at that slightly elevated price. While it's certainly true that as a beginner, it's more of a matter of "what can the school do for me," as you become more advanced, it also becomes a matter of "what can I do for the school."

One school even wrote that you probably need more than 1 set of uniform cause during training you sweat a lot.

That's quite a valid point.

How silly is this? Ever heard of washing machines? Why do I need 3 pairs or more when I can just wash the stuff after a training?

It's not silly at all. I actually have 3 gi's that I use, so that I don't have to fire up the washing machine after every day. If you had to use the washing machine every day, that would get quite expensive, since I'm pretty sure that you're not going to waste a laundry cycle on only one uniform. This is, of course, assuming that you have your own washing machine. Otherwise, if you had to go to the coin laundry every day, you'd be burning through a lot more money than what you would had you bought more than one uniform.

This is just plain silly.

No, it's simply logical and practical. I'm going to be a bit blunt here and simply suggest that you do the math. You will see that I am right.

Yeah, I'll directly buy 10 pairs. No wait, better make it 15. Do you accept credit card?

You're not going to win any appreciable level of sympathy here, especially with your exaggerated statements.

Many of the folks in this community are advanced practitioners, who have been at it for decades. They have an idea of what it takes to operate a school, and that it's not all daisies and roses.