Alan Orr Fighters

[wingchun100]

I am sure some of you have seen these before, but I felt like sharing anyway. Great examples of Wing Chun in MMA, although naturally many people criticize it for not being "pure" Wing Chun.

 

[drop bear]

Pure wing chun is such a silly concept.

 

[KPM]

Pure wing chun is such a silly concept.

Very true! But you would be surprised at the number of people on the FB forum (including Alan Orr) that were offended when I suggested that rather than doing "classical" Wing Chun they were doing an "evolved" form of Wing Chun that had boxing elements....something along the spectrum of "Wing Chun Boxing."

 

[macher]

I am sure some of you have seen these before, but I felt like sharing anyway. Great examples of Wing Chun in MMA, although naturally many people criticize it for not being "pure" Wing Chun.

Even if it’s not pure nothing wrong with that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am sure some of you have seen these before, but I felt like sharing anyway. Great examples of Wing Chun in MMA, although naturally many people criticize it for not being "pure" Wing Chun.

First video, excellent take down defense. It highlights my theory about take downs. "Deny the grab." His opponent just couldn't get the grab that he wanted. At the end he got the position that he wanted but still couldn't get the grab because the previous strikes worn him down.

Second video: eh. Good K.O. but his opponent had some really horrible defense. K.O. with basic punching.

Third video: I'm starting to have the assumption that there are many people in MMA that don't train against forward pressure like that. Addressing forward pressure is relatively simple if you know how to counter it. There are much more difficult things to do in martial arts than knowing how to deal with that. When I watched the videos I saw that they didn't understand how to deal with it. They were just "drowing" and hoping to get some air.

As for fights not looking like Wing Chun. The truth is that a real fight isn't going to look like forms training and sometimes it won't look like the drills. Concepts and techniques could be used and non-of us would have even realized it, unless the fighter told us. WC has some sensory training that helps to understand where pressure is on the arms and where the balance is. There's no way that we would know if that was in play by looking from the outside.

I was told that fighting and application will take the "shape" of our training, but will not look exactly like our training. This is especially true when concepts, tactics, strategies, and methods of a martial arts are being applied.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Very true! But you would be surprised at the number of people on the FB forum (including Alan Orr) that were offended when I suggested that rather than doing "classical" Wing Chun they were doing an "evolved" form of Wing Chun that had boxing elements....something along the spectrum of "Wing Chun Boxing."

They are offended because what they believe they are doing is training the True Nature of WC. I get a disappointed and frustrated when people tell me that Jow Ga Kung Fu isn't about fighting as if fighting should held at a lessor importance than the cultural stuff in Jow Ga Kung Fu. The founder of the system train the Chinese Military how to use it, so it's really hard for me to think that Jow Ga Kung Fu isn't for fighting.

In my mind the fighting part of it is Key to understanding and learning True Jow Ga Kung Fu. It doesn't mean that you are only focused on fighting. It means that you are understanding the system from the application of real use which ironically ends up taking you into a lot of other non-fighting concepts and more into concepts and understanding about the human body and how it naturally reacts. For example, that forward pressure that I saw in the video was very impressive because it was clearly something the other figther's didn't really understand how to deal with.

So I think when Alan Orr hears that he's doing an "evolved" form of Wing Chun, he probably feels that his Wing Chun actually represents a"True Wing Chun" as it was originally meant to be used in the context of actually fighting.

I've never had anyone tell me that I'm using an Evolved form of Jow Ga. But if I did I can feel myself getting irritated with that comment because I feel that I'm training Jow Ga according to what it was originally designed and used. I could be projecting how I would respond to that statement, so it's just a possible perspective. An easy way to know is to just simply ask Alan Orr about his perspective of Wing Chung and it's practical use.

I think people get confused about Martial Arts and "How they should look in a fight" Hollywood is probably responsible for much of the inaccurate perception of what martial arts fighting looks like. Even the so called sparring videos of Bruce Lee look different from what he does in the movie.

 

[KPM]

I agree with you to an extent. But I still say "the physical aspect matters!" I've said this is talking with guys on the FB forum multiple times now. Its always the guys with the basic idea that Wing Chun is supposed to be "concept-based." Therefore as long as someone is following the concepts, then it counts as Wing Chun and what it looks like doesn't matter. I'm fond of pointing that JKD has almost all of Wing Chun's concepts and even a lot of Wing Chun's techniques, but no one considers JKD to just be another form of Wing Chun! Because the physical aspects matter just as much as the concepts! And a big part of those "physical aspects" is the biomechanics or "engine" behind how an art moves...how it sends and receives force. This is what is taught in the fundamental forms or Katas of any martial art. So even though no one would expect a fight to look just like the forms, or represent "picture perfect" techniques from the forms or drills, I do think it is reasonable to expect the fighter to be recognizable as doing his chosen martial art. And this happens by seeing the fighter use the engine or biomechanics that are the core of his martial art. When you are no longer using those core mechanics, then you can no longer be said to be doing that specific martial art. That is how I distinguish between "classical" Wing Chun and some version of Wing Chun Boxing/Kickboxing. If you have two fighters in the cage, only one of which is Wing Chun....and yet you can't really tell them apart.....then our Wing Chun man is certainly NOT doing "classical" WIng Chun! When you see a western boxer fight....or a Thai Boxer fight....no one has any problem recognizing which style of fighting that they train. Why in the world would someone train one way, and then fight another? That is not efficient? So why train classical forms, and then abandon the biomechanics they are teaching and resort to some form of kickboxing? I don't care how many "concepts" you might be using. Its still kickboxing if those are the mechanics you are employing! And there is nothing wrong with that! We expect things to evolve and adapt to the environment in which they find themselves. But again, it just is very strange to me when people take offense if it is pointed out to them that this is obviously what they are doing! Another thing I ask people that think this way.......can you picture Ip Man or any of his first generation students fighting that way? If not, then clearly the Wing Chun shown is a "modern" or "evolved" form and not "classical"!

 

[macher]

I agree with you to an extent. But I still say "the physical aspect matters!" I've said this is talking with guys on the FB forum multiple times now. Its always the guys with the basic idea that Wing Chun is supposed to be "concept-based." Therefore as long as someone is following the concepts, then it counts as Wing Chun and what it looks like doesn't matter. I'm fond of pointing that JKD has almost all of Wing Chun's concepts and even a lot of Wing Chun's techniques, but no one considers JKD to just be another form of Wing Chun! Because the physical aspects matter just as much as the concepts! And a big part of those "physical aspects" is the biomechanics or "engine" behind how an art moves...how it sends and receives force. This is what is taught in the fundamental forms or Katas of any martial art. So even though no one would expect a fight to look just like the forms, or represent "picture perfect" techniques from the forms or drills, I do think it is reasonable to expect the fighter to be recognizable as doing his chosen martial art. And this happens by seeing the fighter use the engine or biomechanics that are the core of his martial art. When you are no longer using those core mechanics, then you can no longer be said to be doing that specific martial art. That is how I distinguish between "classical" Wing Chun and some version of Wing Chun Boxing/Kickboxing. If you have two fighters in the cage, only one of which is Wing Chun....and yet you can't really tell them apart.....then our Wing Chun man is certainly NOT doing "classical" WIng Chun! When you see a western boxer fight....or a Thai Boxer fight....no one has any problem recognizing which style of fighting that they train. Why in the world would someone train one way, and then fight another? That is not efficient? So why train classical forms, and then abandon the biomechanics they are teaching and resort to some form of kickboxing? I don't care how many "concepts" you might be using. Its still kickboxing if those are the mechanics you are employing! And there is nothing wrong with that! We expect things to evolve and adapt to the environment in which they find themselves. But again, it just is very strange to me when people take offense if it is pointed out to them that this is obviously what they are doing! Another thing I ask people that think this way.......can you picture Ip Man or any of his first generation students fighting that way? If not, then clearly the Wing Chun shown is a "modern" or "evolved" form and not "classical"!

True he’s basically relying on counter punching per se.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And a big part of those "physical aspects" is the biomechanics or "engine" behind how an art moves...how it sends and receives force.

You can't always tell when someone has changed the mechanics of something just by physically looknig. To give a real world example,

Tai Chi competition. Guess what it doesn't look like.

Again. Guess what it doesn't look like.

Granted there will be elements that look exactly like the art that you train, but there will also be elements that aren't so strictly confined that they can't be applied in many different ways. For example, I've used a Jow Ga striking technique as a throwing technique. No one taught me that the technique could be used this way. It looks different from the striking technique but it's the same mechanics.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I agree with you to an extent. But I still say "the physical aspect matters!" I've said this is talking with guys on the FB forum multiple times now. Its always the guys with the basic idea that Wing Chun is supposed to be "concept-based." Therefore as long as someone is following the concepts, then it counts as Wing Chun and what it looks like doesn't matter. I'm fond of pointing that JKD has almost all of Wing Chun's concepts and even a lot of Wing Chun's techniques, but no one considers JKD to just be another form of Wing Chun! Because the physical aspects matter just as much as the concepts! And a big part of those "physical aspects" is the biomechanics or "engine" behind how an art moves...how it sends and receives force. This is what is taught in the fundamental forms or Katas of any martial art. So even though no one would expect a fight to look just like the forms, or represent "picture perfect" techniques from the forms or drills, I do think it is reasonable to expect the fighter to be recognizable as doing his chosen martial art. And this happens by seeing the fighter use the engine or biomechanics that are the core of his martial art. When you are no longer using those core mechanics, then you can no longer be said to be doing that specific martial art. That is how I distinguish between "classical" Wing Chun and some version of Wing Chun Boxing/Kickboxing. If you have two fighters in the cage, only one of which is Wing Chun....and yet you can't really tell them apart.....then our Wing Chun man is certainly NOT doing "classical" WIng Chun! When you see a western boxer fight....or a Thai Boxer fight....no one has any problem recognizing which style of fighting that they train. Why in the world would someone train one way, and then fight another? That is not efficient? So why train classical forms, and then abandon the biomechanics they are teaching and resort to some form of kickboxing? I don't care how many "concepts" you might be using. Its still kickboxing if those are the mechanics you are employing! And there is nothing wrong with that! We expect things to evolve and adapt to the environment in which they find themselves. But again, it just is very strange to me when people take offense if it is pointed out to them that this is obviously what they are doing! Another thing I ask people that think this way.......can you picture Ip Man or any of his first generation students fighting that way? If not, then clearly the Wing Chun shown is a "modern" or "evolved" form and not "classical"!

By the way I do agree, that a person should look like what they train, the better someone becomes at applying the techniques the more they will naturally show this. I could use Jow Ga foot work but it won't look like Jow Ga if that's all that I do.

I think the limitation that on how we look when we fight is directly tied to our ability to do multiple techniques. The WC videos definitely show a limited use of WC techniques., but then again, sometimes it only takes 1 or 2 techniques to beat someone.

 

[wingchun100]

As for fights not looking like Wing Chun. The truth is that a real fight isn't going to look like forms training and sometimes it won't look like the drills. Concepts and techniques could be used and non-of us would have even realized it, unless the fighter told us. WC has some sensory training that helps to understand where pressure is on the arms and where the balance is. There's no way that we would know if that was in play by looking from the outside.

I was told that fighting and application will take the "shape" of our training, but will not look exactly like our training. This is especially true when concepts, tactics, strategies, and methods of a martial arts are being applied.

Exactly. I know several people who would say the first guy isn't doing Wing Chun because he's not doing strictly straight punches. I say: we train to attack the center line, but who says we can do that only with straight line attacks?

 

[drop bear]

Very true! But you would be surprised at the number of people on the FB forum (including Alan Orr) that were offended when I suggested that rather than doing "classical" Wing Chun they were doing an "evolved" form of Wing Chun that had boxing elements....something along the spectrum of "Wing Chun Boxing."

Yeah. That is why I showed that BJJ leglock video. That isn't technically pure. They had to ajust their concepts. But they jumped on it like a fat kid on cake.

Purity assumes you are right regardless of evidence to the contrary.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Exactly. I know several people who would say the first guy isn't doing Wing Chun because he's not doing strictly straight punches. I say: we train to attack the center line, but who says we can do that only with straight line attacks?

I could see the shape of WingChun with the forward press. It didn't look like the WC that I usually see, but the concept of constantly pressing stood out to me. Logically I can't see a WC person refusing to use a circular punch to hit an open space simply because it wasn't a straight line attack. To me it makes more sense to throw a hook into the open space which may in turn open that center line.

I've spared with people who only defended their center line, so I threw a because it was open and they were over committed to defend their center line.

What is the WC options for someone who blocks the center in this manner? I don't mean the theoretical option. I mean the option that a WC person with average skill will be able to do . The theoretical option is to step to the side, but in my book stepping to the side is advanced footwork. It's not as easy as it sounds and not many martial artists I've seen have been able to do this. Simply look at the numerous WC vs and you'll rarely see an angle.

I know for me. I would be hooking the crap out of this guard. Footwork would move me away from the linear jab that his arms in the position for. The moment he starts covering the side of his head is the moment I changed it into linear attacks. Thoughts? What is the average WC answer that people can actually do.

 

[KPM]

Logically I can't see a WC person refusing to use a circular punch to hit an open space simply because it wasn't a straight line attack. To me it makes more sense to throw a hook into the open space which may in turn open that center line.

---Of course. But you can throw the hook with Wing Chun mechanics, or you can throw the hook with boxing mechanics. What I was talking about was the "engine" or the "core mechanics".....not individual techniques.


What is the WC options for someone who blocks the center in this manner?

---Remove the obstruction with a Bong/Lop Sau or other technique as you take a slight angle. That doesn't take a lot of sophisticated footwork. This is something the WSLVT guys emphasize.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But you can throw the hook with Wing Chun mechanics, or you can throw the hook with boxing mechanics.

True.

What is the WC options for someone who blocks the center in this manner?

---Remove the obstruction with a Bong/Lop Sau or other technique as you take a slight angle. That doesn't take a lot of sophisticated footwork. This is something the WSLVT guys emphasize.

Thanks