Al Tracy's rank under Ed Parker?

[Flying Crane]

Does anyone happen to know what rank Mr. Tracy received directly from Mr. Parker? I have a vague memory of seeing a copy of a certificate posted somewhere on the internet, showing Mr. Tracy received 6th, or 8th degree directly from Mr. Parker, before their split solidified. My memory could be faulty on this. Anybody know for sure?

 

[Blindside]

The highest I have ever seen was 3rd (san dan), go over to the San Jose Kenpo discussion board to see an ongoing discussion about this.

Lamont

 

[bdparsons]

When Al Tracy left Ed Parker he and his brothers were brown belts later promoted to black.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Flying Crane]

When Al Tracy left Ed Parker he and his brothers were brown belts later promoted to black.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

I believe the relationship continued for a while, and Mr. Parker promoted them to ranks higher than that.

 

[HKphooey]

An of course this can be doctored, by I choose not to belive so...

 

[Flying Crane]

I just got off Tracys website, he has a certificate showing Third Black, with Ed Parker's signature on it. Assuming it has not been doctored, perhaps that answers my question.

I wish I could remember where I saw the one that made me think it was 8th. maybe I just have remembered that wrong.

 

[HKphooey]

This would be it...

 

[Flying Crane]

yup, that be the one!

 

[Flying Crane]

I see that a number of the articles that Will Tracy wrote, that were on San Jose Kenpo's website have been removed. Not all, but some of them were taken down. Maybe the certificate I am thinking of was posted in one of those articles. I should send Mr. Sumner an email...

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Ted has the cert posted on one of the threads.
there was a debate over whether Mills Crenshaw remembered specifically signing a cert for their promotion.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ted has the cert posted on one of the threads.
there was a debate over whether Mills Crenshaw remembered specifically signing a cert for their promotion.

Which cert? 8th?

 

[BlackCatBonz]

No, sandan, that was the highest rank he received from Ed Parker.

 

[Flying Crane]

No, sandan, that was the highest rank he received from Ed Parker.

Ah, that's what I was trying to verify. I see this cert posted on Tracys website.

I thought I had seen one for 8th posted somewhere a few years back, but I must have a faulty memory.

 

[Ronin Moose]

Michael, we eventually just give in and call it a "senior moment".

Your friend......

GARRY

 

[Flying Crane]

Michael, we eventually just give in and call it a "senior moment".

Your friend......

GARRY

Hey, I'm only 34, for crying out loud! er, wait, make that 35...

 

[Dave Simmons]

When Al Tracy left Ed Parker he and his brothers were brown belts later promoted to black.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

Mr. Parsons,

I have heard the "brown belt" nonsense for to many years! It seems to keep resurfacing for those who do not know the relationship between Al, Jim Tracy & Ed Parker. Please your facts straight - thank you.

 

[Sigung86]

Mr. Parsons,

I have heard the "brown belt" nonsense for to many years! It seems to keep resurfacing for those who do not know the relationship between Al, Jim Tracy & Ed Parker. Please your facts straight - thank you.

That's tellin' 'em Dave! :lol:

Actually, it's too bad that Dave didn't fill in with what might have been, more in the line of, first hand knowledge. He was there pretty close to right from the beginning.

I came into Tracy's Karaté in San Antonio ca. 1971-72 - Kind of late but still early on. At the time, the group that was running the Tracy schools down there, the names of all the folks involved, for the most part, escape me, were, apparently, a little less than on the level. As I understand it, they were from the Connor side of the group, mainly out of Arizona. They brought in some Green and Brown Belt personnel from Arizona, had them buy the school franchises, and then put Black Belts (Undeserved, so I understand) on them and had them run the schools.

I say that to say this. My surmise is simply this ... That there is a possibility that the Tracy's left Ed Parker as Browns and opened their schools. Later, because of political or personal exigencies, Ed Parker may have gone back and promoted them. There has to be some truth in there somewhere. Ed Parker said in an interview that when the Tracys left that they had not gotten to the Black Belt ranks

I don't know this for a fact... Dave could have filled that in. Or one of a number of others that have been with the Tracy's since day one could have... If they would have ...

However!

If you are fortunate enough to have access to the family tree that Ed Parker created, and place in the Infinite Insights volumes, or have a copy, all you need to do is look at it, and you will see Al and his other brother Jim listed there as Black Belts with branches of their own. Will Tracy, as I understand it, did not like Ed Parker and therefore, got his Black Belt from, perhaps, Chow. As I said, I don't pay too much attention to the political blow around, and quests for legitimacy, any longer. Been there. Done that, and suffered the slings, arrows, and consequences of trying to get at the truth.

The bottom line to it all is that, it really doesn't matter now-a-days. I don't believe one can go back in the "Way back machine", and change history. Al Tracy is a legitimate 10th Degree, unless someone goes back and wipes him from a very large amount of printed Parker Family Trees that are floating around out here inside copies of the Infinite Insights or are stored in desk drawers (as mine is).

I think that times are, a little, different today than in those ancient of days when things were a little more freewheeling and requiring of more "desperate measures". It would be very hard for a Brown Belt to open a school, claim legitimacy and be successful without the intervention of some association ... Unless s/he were to make her/himself a system founder and thus an automatic 10th degree.

There were lots of things done in those halcyon days to build empire and create income. Brown Belts, for instance, were pretty bad people in those days, and not to be trifled with. Legitimate Black Belts were, actually, very few in number in the outlying areas i.e. San Antonio, TX. The first degree Black was a pinnacle "back in the day", as there weren't all that many advanced Blacks to pass around the knowledge. I remember hearing from my old instructor, Dick Ranney (one of those involved in the Texas ranking scandals :lol: ), that one couldn't go much higher than third Black in Tracy's, as there wasn't any information or material higher generally available "everywhere", than that, at the time.

I'm relatively certain that this little tome of mine will involve some slings and arrows, if certain people read it. I mean no disrespect to anyone, because, as I said a little earlier here, in the end, it doesn't really matter all that much. And all I am doing is making suppositions based on all the "he said ... she said", inuendos, lies, damned lies, bits of truths and gross misinformations, that have been floating around for years.

One can NOT overlook the numerous contributions that the Tracy Brothers and their numerous franchise owners made to the art of Kenpo. I posited, once, to Dennis Conatser, that were it not for the financial success of the Tracy Franchises, and all the ensuing political infights and quests for increased higher numbered belts, and cross-ranking that went on (J. T. Will comes to mind) that the Kenpo we know today would not have existed. And it is, in my mind, a possibility, that Ed Parker may not have had the EPAK empire that came about. It is entirely in the realm of possibility that without it all, that EPAK may never have existed, and that Ed Parker may have eventually given up on owning one or two small schools and gone to doing something else entirely like having a physical fitness center empire in LA. :lool:


Looking at the possibilities of alternate history is kind of fun. One can see where the smallest of changes in what someone said, or did, could entirely change a large swath of martial arts history, as we know it today. For instance, I may have looked at it all as a futile effort, and gone on to be extremely wealthy, doing something meaningful instead of simply being so damned good looking, and doing "my own thing"! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Another thought is to think in terms of bearding the lion in his den, after a fashion. Go to www.sanjosekenpo.com enter their forum and post your questions, perhaps respectfully. Ted Sumner, Dave Simmons, Gary Brewer and a few others, up to and including Mills Crenshaw (

), who WAS there, could give meaningful answers if they only will.

Until then, this subject is more a matter of beating a very dead, and very ripe horse and borders more on the area of mental strokage of a very intimate nature.

Dan

 

[HKphooey]

Well said Sig! :asian:

 

[KenpoDave]

Here is the story as I have heard it from Mr. Tracy and others countless times.

When Ed Parker published the book that he was writing with James Wing Woo without giving any credit to Woo, Woo left him, and all 3 of Parker's black belts went with him. Parker made the assumption, and verbalized it, that the defection must have been orchestrated by Al and Jim Tracy. They came in to the studio and threw their brown belts down on Parker's desk and left.

So, yes, they left him as brown belts. BUT, Parker had them back teaching for him again within about 3 months.

So, saying that the Tracy's left Parker when they were only brown belts is only true if that is where the story ends. And it doesn't. The Tracy's went on to open schools under Ed Parker's banner, receive their shodan-sandan from Ed Parker, and take over operation of the KKAA when Ed Parker founded the IKKA.

 

[Sigung86]

Here is the story as I have heard it from Mr. Tracy and others countless times.

When Ed Parker published the book that he was writing with James Wing Woo without giving any credit to Woo, Woo left him, and all 3 of Parker's black belts went with him. Parker made the assumption, and verbalized it, that the defection must have been orchestrated by Al and Jim Tracy. They came in to the studio and threw their brown belts down on Parker's desk and left.

So, yes, they left him as brown belts. BUT, Parker had them back teaching for him again within about 3 months.

So, saying that the Tracy's left Parker when they were only brown belts is only true if that is where the story ends. And it doesn't. The Tracy's went on to open schools under Ed Parker's banner, receive their shodan-sandan from Ed Parker, and take over operation of the KKAA when Ed Parker founded the IKKA.

Thanks very much for the clarification Dave. I thought, as I stated that the truth was in there, somehow. Maybe now this particular dead horse can be buried until the next generation of youngsters come along. :lol: