akido...hapkido

[jkn75]

Kuk sool Won is based on more than just Hap Ki Do. It is true that Grandmaster Suh did train with a Hapkido master while the grandmaster for Hwa Rang Do was there. There is still some debate about the relationship between all 3 arts.
Here is a link to the history pre-1910. http://www.kuksoolwon.com/histpre1910.htm#hISTORY BEF1910

Please also look at the post 1910 as that explains Grandmaster Suh's training. http://www.kuksoolwon.com/histpost1910.htm
Thanks.:asian:

 

[Jay Bell]

I think something needs to be brought up here. Bob is correct in saying that Choi Youn Sul never studied Daito ryu under Sokaku Takeda sensei.

The reasons for this are well documented. Takeda sensei had maticulous records of *every* student that he ever instructed. Even during seminars that he gave, each and every person who attended had to write their name in his ledgers. There were a handful of people from Korea, none of them were the founders of Hapkido.

The evidence stands pretty clear. The only people that are claiming Hapkido to be decendant of Daito ryu are Hapkido people. There is proof documented on paper that Choi Youn Sul was never a Daito ryu student. There is also nothing beyond his words claiming that he was.

 

[theneuhauser]

ok aikido was my first martial art, but it was only a year, and i retained little. so here's the outsiders perspective:
aikido is a very young martial system and hapkido is even newer. so why the heck is there a descrepency on their origins?
and my next question is, I have heard from many people that aikido developed from qin na(china), is there truth to this? qin na has been around for a long time and the qin na relationships are also close (maybe even closer) to hapkido.
so are jujutsu and qin na related?


give me some thoughts, i would like to know the ties.

 

[Chris from CT]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
The evidence stands pretty clear. The only people that are claiming Hapkido to be decendant of Daito ryu are Hapkido people. There is proof documented on paper that Choi Youn Sul was never a Daito ryu student. There is also nothing beyond his words claiming that he was.

Hi, Jay. Yes, they had meticulous records and some say that Choi Yong Sul never studied under him, but the Daito Ryu Hombu says that he did study under Takeda Sensei. This information was from Kobayashi Y., the Hombu Secratary on Monday, March 11, 2002.

I wrote it down in a post here...

http://martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3479
I believe it's the 5 post in.

In that post is my point of view of GM Choi studying with Takeda Sensei. If he did great, if he didn't so be it. I'm just passing the info along.

Take care.

 

[Jay Bell]

I contacted the Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Hombu (head school) in Abashiri, Hokkaido and I received a responce from Kobayashi Y., the Hombu Secratary.

That's truly odd...the Shinbukan is located in Tokyo from what I understand. I'm curious to which "hombu" you contacted. Being that there are various lines of Daito ryu, the mainline being under Kondo sensei at the Shinbukan...

If this is the same group that was offering an uchideshi program, then it is not the mainline Daito ryu. There was much debate about this group some time ago. They claimed to be mainline and were not.

 

[arnisador]

It's agreed that Hapkido principally developed from jujutsu, right? We're just talking about which particular system of jujutsu it came from?

 

[Chris from CT]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
That's truly odd...the Shinbukan is located in Tokyo from what I understand. I'm curious to which "hombu" you contacted.

I'm not sure which one either, but here is the website...

http://www.daito-ryu.com/

There used to be an English option. Now it's in only in Italian. This is the group where I got the info.

Please, let me know which this is.

Take care. :asian:

 

[Jay Bell]

Hi Chris,

I honestly think that is the group that Stanley Pranin (Aikido Journal) wrote and dug into their claims.

Anyway..I found this information that I thought might be interesting from Mr. Pranin's site -

CHOI, YONG SUL
(20 July 1904-29 November 1986). B. Daegue, Korea. The founder of the Korean martial art of HAPKIDO (written with the same Chinese characters as aikido). Some sources claim that Choi was adopted into the family of Sokaku TAKEDA and lived and trained with him for 30 years and became his leading student and teaching assistant. An initial analysis of the extant DAITO-RYU documents and questioning of Takeda's son Tokimune have failed to bring to light any evidence in support of this claim. When queried about this matter, aikido DOSHU Kisshomaru UESHIBA stated that he was told that Choi, together with a number of Korean nationals, had participated in a Daito-ryu seminar in Asahikawa City in Hokkaido during the period when Morihei UESHIBA was residing there. However, he has not been able to confirm this. Another source states that Choi used the name "Tatsujutsu Yoshida" while in Japan. This author has perused a book on Hapkido and did find a number of techniques bearing a close resemblance to Daito-ryu and aikido arts. In any event, what, if any, exposure Choi had to Sokaku Takeda or Morihei Ueshiba is unclear and further research will be required to elucidate this matter.


HAPKIDO
A Korean martial art created by YONG SUL CHOI shortly after World War II which is reputed to have a historical relationship to DAITO-RYU JUJUTSU. An analysis of the techniques of Hapkido does reveal certain similarities, however, this claim has so far been undocumented.

Also..I'm not sure if you have the book or not, but Daito ryu Aikijujutsu - Conversations with Daito ryu Masters is a great reference into the school. It details all of Sokaku sensei's long time students...Choi not being any of them.

 

[Chris from CT]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Hi Chris, I honestly think that is the group that Stanley Pranin (Aikido Journal) wrote and dug into their claims...

...When queried about this matter, aikido DOSHU Kisshomaru UESHIBA stated that he was told that Choi, together with a number of Korean nationals, had participated in a Daito-ryu seminar in Asahikawa City in Hokkaido during the period when Morihei UESHIBA was residing there. However, he has not been able to confirm this...

...This author has perused a book on Hapkido and did find a number of techniques bearing a close resemblance to Daito-ryu and aikido arts...

To me, I find it hard to believe that someone could come up with a system as similar to Daito Ryu and as complex as Hapkido from one seminar. Now I'm not talking about some jointlocks thrown together to add into some system, but the principles of body mechanics, movement, energy and blending that can be witnessed from GM Choi's talented students.

I would love to check out some good Daito people around here. It would be cool to kick back (no pun intended ) and discuss some of this stuff, see and feel the techniques. If anyone knows any Daito Ryu practitioners in the Northeast please let me know.

I would think that there would be a greater chance that GM Choi could have been the house servant for 30 years observing than just participating in a seminar or two.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
In any event, what, if any, exposure Choi had to Sokaku Takeda or Morihei Ueshiba is unclear and further research will be required to elucidate this matter.

It sucks that we may never know for sure.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Also..I'm not sure if you have the book or not, but Daito ryu Aikijujutsu - Conversations with Daito ryu Masters is a great reference into the school.

No, but I would love to pick it up.

Take care. :asian:

 

[kenmpoka]

Greetings everyone,

As far as the history is concerned, my experience has been that the complete truth can never be found. Since most nationalistic movements in different countries, most historial datas have been changed, rewritten, and exaggerated to a certain extent.

I have been involved in MA for 26 years now and have studied various systems. There are similarities between all MA systems. One reason being the cultural exchanges between nations and adaptations of new ideas into various fighting systems. Okinawans and Japanese learned from Chinese, and added new ideas learned to their own fighting system. The same goes for Koreans who learned from Chinese and Japanese, therefore evolving their fighting arts.

The resemblance of systems of Tang Soo Do now going by the name of Soo Bahk Do, and Tae Kwon Do to Japanese systems of Karate is too strong to be denied. Have these systems evolved during the last few decades? Yes. Do they teach techniques particular to themselves? Yes. Are they as effective? Yes. But still the base of these systems are the same.

The same can be argued for Judo pronounced
Yudo in korean, Aikido pronounced HapKiDo, and arts that evolved from combination of HapKido and other systems such as Kuk Sool Won(sp?), and Hwarang Do.

Can we say that Jujutsu systems incorporated techniques and ideas from Chin-Na and Chinese/Mongolian wrestling arts? You Bet. Are Japanese going to deny it? You bet.

So you see everyone is going to claim something to further their purpose, some partially true and some preposterous. If you like what the system teaches, study it, master it and pass it on. It does not really matter who the founder/s is/are. If the idea is logical and works why not? If the techniques are applicable use them and don't be bound by names and exaggerated histories.

Now lets get to the technical questions, shall we?

Aikido and Hapkido systems both use small and wide circle projections. Both systems use Atemi(strikes) although more modern Aikido systems that I know of are devoid of kicks, and if kicks are used they are limited to stomping and front snapping kicks only. I once heard that kicks in Koryu schools of Bujutsu/Budo are considered impolite. Go figure this one out! Hapkido's canon of strikes seems to be more advanced since over the years Korean Kenpo (such as Tae Kyon) was incorporated into their curriculum. As an outsider I must say that HapkiDo has more of a Jujutsu flare than Aikido. Lastly the presence and influence of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu either directly and indirectly is apparent in both systems.

Respectfully,

:asian:

p.s. I believe I have posted these site before, but here they are again, worth the reading for history junkies like myself.LOL
www.beckmartialarts.com/ctkdfaq.html
www.beckmartialarts.com/chkdfaq.html

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MTisGreat

i hear hapkido is a knock off of akido. is that true or does it have its own origin?

no offense whatsoever!

The Japanese Kanji are the exact same for Aikido and Hapkido.
The Korean founder of Hapkido studied in Japan and then returned to Korea.

One thing Koreans hate is Japanese stuff.......so much so that very few Koreans will ever admit things like Tang Soo Do is actually Karate do written in the way it used to be in Okinawa, or Hapkido came from Aikido.
Granted the Koreans added and delted things from each art they brought over but they are essential the same.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu



This the Hapkido verison of this story. If you ask someone who does Daito Ryu Aikijutsu. Is alot different. Basically the Aiki people don't believe that a Korean Child could come into Japan at that era and start taking Aikijutsu. I tend to believe the Aikijutsu story more so than the Hapkido verison. Here are my reasons:
First of all Aikijutsu is the art of war. If they didn't kill you they sent you home maim. (When used in combat.) This is no kids art especially back than.
Second I don't believe the Japanese people would teach a foreigner more so a Korean. This child was probably a servant (slave) and watch as they preform the Aikijutsu.

Koreans in Japan at that time were basically slave labor. They may or may not have been paid a wage but for practical purposes they were basically slaves.
I doubt very much that he was treated with any amount of respect.

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Motobu Ryu which is Okinawan, Chokki Motobu was not promented to do his family's art. Only the eldest son was. Chokki watch through a peep hole in a fence as his father and oldest brother workout..

Choki Motobu was not permitted to have a good education martial or otherwise because he was the son of his father's mistress.
Choki and Choyu were only half brothers.

 

[H@pkid0ist]

You can argue Yada vs Yada and blabla vs Blabla. the fact is we will never truly know. Choi studied somewere sometime, and began an art that without a doupt is increadable and combat effective. These points I dare anyone to honestly argue. This is all that truly matters.

:soapbox:

 

[Hollywood1340]

And now for my version
As my Sabum told me:
"Hapkido is really nasty Aikido, enough so that that they are indeed to different arts. The influence of other Korean arts has had a major effect on how hapkido evolved They are releated way back when, but have evolved along diffrent paths. Now stop talking and get on the mat Mr. Maxwell, and show me some Hapkido!! I'll answer your questions later!"

 

[Nightingale]

I didn't know the two arts were so closely related...

does anyone else have more info?

 

[Jay Bell]

More information...

The only problem with more information is that there is an enormous potential to become ugly...

The following is the infamous interview that Choi gave regarding Daito ryu and Takeda sensei. The interview was done in 1982 during his visit to the us:

Mr. Choi, under what circumstances did you come to live in Japan?

When I was a child I lived in the village of Yong Dong in Choong Chung Province, Korea. At this time there were many Japanese people in my region because of the Japanese occupation of Korea. I became acquainted with a Mr. Morimoto, who was a Japanese businessman and candy store owner. Morimoto had no sons. When the time came for him to return to Japan he abducted me and took me with him to Japan, intending that I would become his son. I did not like this man and because of my constant protest and crying he abandoned me in the town of Moji soon after we came to Japan. From Moji, I traveled alone to Osaka. I soon gave myself up to despair and while crying and wandering aimlessly, I was picked up by the police. When the authorities found out that I had no family in Japan, they arranged for me to be cared for at a Buddhist temple. I lived there for about two years under the care of the monk Kintaro, Wadanabi.

How old were you when you were abducted?

I think about 8 years old.

What circumstances placed you in the home of Takeda, Sokaku?

While living in the temple, I was fascinated by murals of battles and paintings of famous martial arts scenes displayed throughout the temple. When the time came, Wadanabi asked me what direction I wanted my life to take. I immediately pointed to a scene on the wall depicting the martial arts and said this is what I want to be. Kintaro, Wadanabi was a close friend of Takeda, Sokaku and arranged my introduction to him. Takeda, Sokaku liked me and feeling great sympathy for my situation, decided to adopt me. Upon my adoption he gave me the Japanese name Asao, Yoshida. I was about 11 years old at this time.

In what city was the Buddhist temple that was your home?

Kyoto.

In what area was Takeda, Sokaku’s home and dojang (school) located?

His home and school were located on Shin Su Mountain in the area of Akeda.

What was the nature of your training under Takeda, Sokaku?

Takeda, Sokaku was the head of Daito Ryu Aiki-Jutsu. I lived in his home and learned under his personal direction for over 30 years. I was his constant student, and for twenty years of my training, I was secluded in his mountain home.
Takeda was the teacher of the Japanese royal family.

Were you personally involved in teaching the royal family?

Yes, at that time I was my teachers’s assistant in all of his instruction. While in Tokyo, we also taught high ranking government officials within the palace circle. Also, we traveled to various parts of Japan and taught select groups of people.

Did you ever leave Japan with Master Takeda for any exhibitions or teaching outside of Japan?

Yes, when I was about 28 years old it was arranged by politicians for my teacher and his most outstanding students to travel to Hawaii in order to give an exhibition tour.

What was your personal status on this tour?

I was the leader of the exhibition team under the direction of my teacher.

How many people were on the exhibition team and can you recall the names of any of the participants?

At the time of the Hawaiian tour there were five of us; Takeda, Sokaku, myself (Asao, Yoshida), Jintaro, Abida and two others whose names I cannot at this time recall.

When you returned from Hawaii were there any significant changes in your life?

No, we continued to tour and teach and at the same time I continued to learn through Master Takeda’s instruction.

How was your life affected by the outbreak of World War II?

World War II changed things in many ways. My teacher and I worked for the government by capturing military deserters that would hide in the mountains near our home. We would return these men, unharmed, to the authorities. The most significant changes happened toward the end of the war. Japan was losing the war and in a last desperation effort the government instituted a special military draft that called up most of the prominent martial artists of the time. These highly trained people were conscripted into special guerrilla-type units that were dispersed throughout the war zone. All of the inner circle of Daito Ryu Aiki-Jutsu were drafted except Master Takeda and myself. Most were killed in the final fighting of the war.

Why were you not drafted along with the others?

I was going to be drafted but Takeda, Sokaku intervened. Through his status and influence, he had me hospitalized for minor surgery. This stopped the process of my conscription and prevented me from being drafted. He prevented me from being put into the war because he felt that if I was killed Daito Ryu Aiki-Jutsu would be lost in its completed form upon his death.

How many separate techniques had Takeda, Sokaku developed and mastered in his system?

3808.

How many of these techniques have you personally mastered?

Shortly before he died, my teacher informed me that I was the only student that he had schooled in all of his secrets and techniques.
Do you know the circumstances of Takeda, Sokaku's death?

Yes, he ended his life by refusing to eat.

Why did he do that?

Japan had never before been defeated in war. Takeda, Sokaku felt that a great shame and loss of face had been perpetrated on his ancestors by Japan's defeat at the hands of the Allies. Being a man of leadership, he felt a strong personal responsibility in this defeat. Becase of this strong feeling, he decided that his only honorable path was to end his life.

Did Master Takeda make any final statements to you before his death?

He said goodbye to me and spoke of my long time desire to return to Korea. He bid me to do so. He was concerned that because of my position in his household and because of my Korean heritage, that I would be assassinated if I remained in Japan. Had I remained after his death to succeed him, it would have been dangerous.

When did you return to Korea?

I returned, with my household, shortly after Takeda, Sokaku’s death.

Where in Korea did you settle?

We settled in Taegu Kyung Buk Province. Here I established my first Korean dojang, and have made my home here ever since. After returning I changed my name back to Choi, Yong Sul and the name of my art to Hapkido.

This entire interview cannot be validated. The only confirmation of Choi and *any* Daito ryu study seems to come from one seminar.

The claims of him potentially succeeding Takeda sensei is absolutely absurd. Daito ryu is passed through the Takeda family.

Oh right...I forgot...Choi was adopted by Takeda.

Now...before the boulders start coming loose, I need to make something clear. I think Hapkido is a wonderful art. Choi had enormous talent to be able to formulate this art.
However...making up stories to be accepted is rediculous. I truly believe this is what was done. There is no documentation to support Choi's above claims. He apparently was seen *once* in Hakkaido at a seminar.

The fact that Hapkido is a wonderful art does *not* give validation to Choi's claims.

 

[Bob D.]

The fact that a Korean servant is not documented in Japan makes sense. Why does everyone find that hard to believe? Why would he be documented, he was a Korean house boy. If Takeda liked him and wanted to teach him outside of regular class, there is plenty of time in a day to do so (and over 30 years).
The fact that Choi knew Takeda and knew an advanced form of whatever you want to call it remains. If Choi was not a part of Takedas household, how the heck would he even know the mans name? Why, knowing the racial tensions between Japan and Korea, would Choi go back to Korea and make this claim? Wouldn't it go against him? I don't doubt he embelished a bit of his story to make himself more important, (it seems to be commen in Korea) but it is possible.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Choi wasn't the only Korean doing aikido, aikijutsu or jujitsu. A number of others were as well. He gets credited for its development...but he clearly wasn't the only one teaching stuff of this nature in post WWII Korea.



Regards,

Steve Scott