Aikido vs. suspect seated in car

[Gerry Seymour]

I didn't want to break the guy or the car.

That near hand where I am putting my whole body in to leveraging the front arm off the wheel feels pretty solid.

If I can get the far arm straight. (And I struggled a bit) I can apply an arm bar by pulling the elbow. So if he is hanging on with that far arm. I can start reefing that straight arm bar until he lets go.

i haven't tried it, but it seems like a grip on the steering wheel might make that arm bar easier than a free arm (at least temporarily). What do you think?

 

[drop bear]

i haven't tried it, but it seems like a grip on the steering wheel might make that arm bar easier than a free arm (at least temporarily). What do you think?

The more I pull him out the more that far arm goes straight.

Hence the sneaky underhook. Which I am a bit proud of.

 

[drop bear]

I was going to do a video but was too knackered.

Basically push the near arm away from you Secure the arm in the gift wrap and then just tip them out the car.

There are tricks and traps for getting the far arm as well. (Which hopefully i can pull that arm towards me as they reach to defend the gift wrap.)Which would be nice if you can do it.

View attachment 22381

I was going for this. But couldn't get it properly.

 

[Buka]

I look forward to that.

Okay, I hope I can express this properly with pics instead of a video.

If the door isn't open, or you don't want the door open for whatever reason -

If necessary, you could use this motion to break the window with a wooden baton. If the window is open you stab the baton into the seat back on the far side of the suspects head.


Then with your other hand, you cross grip the baton.

Then roll your wrists downward...

Then step back with either leg, lowering your center of gravity, and RIP that son of a beach right through the window.

You'ld be surprised how fast even a big man will come through that window. Is it safe? No, of course not. Is it violent and could get you into trouble? Undoubtedly.

But it works just fine. Haven't had anyone resist it yet, even when they tried.

Moral of the story, if the Federales instruct you to get out of the car, you should probably get out of the car.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Okay, I hope I can express this properly with pics instead of a video.

If the door isn't open, or you don't want the door open for whatever reason - View attachment 22389 If necessary, you could use this motion to break the window with a wooden baton. If the window is open you stab the baton into the seat back on the far side of the suspects head.


Then with your other hand, you cross grip the baton.

View attachment 22390

Then roll your wrists downward...

View attachment 22391
Then step back with either leg, lowering your center of gravity, and RIP that son of a beach right through the window.

You'ld be surprised how fast even a big man will come through that window. Is it safe? No, of course not. Is it violent and could get you into trouble? Undoubtedly.

But it works just fine. Haven't had anyone resist it yet, even when they tried.

Moral of the story, if the Federales instruct you to get out of the car, you should probably get out of the car.

I like that. Basic collar choke mechanics, with a stick, then bodyweight lead. And, yes, the pictures do give enough info.

 

[Oni_Kadaki]

Thanks for all the replies guys!

 

[jks9199]

An interesting scenario came up while I was doing some law enforcement training this past week. Specifically, a fellow student asked the instructor how he would get a non-compliant suspect out of a vehicle. The instructor, who specializes in firearms, not hand-to-hand, suggested an armbar, and I chimed in the nikkyo might be effective for pain compliance. A classmate immediately shot that down, saying that he would uppercut someone who tried it on him.

Issues of power-generation for the seated person aside (if I'm not mistaken, you can't really generate power with your lower body for a strike if you're seated in a driver's seat), does anyone have any training or experience in using Aikido in this scenario? We did a practice run, and I found it extremely difficult because our usual footwork is severely limited by the presence of the car.

You can absolutely generate power from the lower body while seated... The steering wheel makes it trickier in a car, but it can be done.

As to removing someone from a car involuntarily... there are several ways that I know. A key factor many techniques I've seen taught miss, though, is the seatbelt... You ain't getting them out if the belt is still latched.

 

[Buka]

You can absolutely generate power from the lower body while seated... The steering wheel makes it trickier in a car, but it can be done.

As to removing someone from a car involuntarily... there are several ways that I know. A key factor many techniques I've seen taught miss, though, is the seatbelt... You ain't getting them out if the belt is still latched.

True, true. Twice I had the suspect belted in. As I started to pull I told him to release it or his head would come off. Each one did very quickly. They fumbled a bit, but they got it. The second one I actually let go off his head as he promised to do whatever was asked of him. And he did.

 

[JP3]

If the noncompliant suspect is just sitting in the car, and the head/face/neck/chest/shoulder & arm are "exposed," and keeping in mind that he's noncompliant with a properly issued command to exit the vehicle and the officer involved was concerned with personal safety... why not simply use a taser? Zap. Open door. Flop out onto ground.

 

[Buka]

If the noncompliant suspect is just sitting in the car, and the head/face/neck/chest/shoulder & arm are "exposed," and keeping in mind that he's noncompliant with a properly issued command to exit the vehicle and the officer involved was concerned with personal safety... why not simply use a taser? Zap. Open door. Flop out onto ground.

I, personally, would love that. Unfortunately, none of the departments I've worked for, including the one I work for right now, have tasers.

 

[JP3]

I, personally, would love that. Unfortunately, none of the departments I've worked for, including the one I work for right now, have tasers.

I'm surprised by that, actually. I don't do LEO nor do I even attempt to play one on TV. I just assumed, and you know how that goes, that a Taser is automatically installed on all LEO utility belts at the factory or something. I suppose not though.

What do they want y'all to do? Just sit and wait... I know it's not just shoot the dude, even though stupidity might warrant that in some opinions. Reaching into a vehicle seems to me to break a lot of rules. The martial kinds of rules, not legal ones.

 

[jks9199]

If the noncompliant suspect is just sitting in the car, and the head/face/neck/chest/shoulder & arm are "exposed," and keeping in mind that he's noncompliant with a properly issued command to exit the vehicle and the officer involved was concerned with personal safety... why not simply use a taser? Zap. Open door. Flop out onto ground.

Because that's not how the Taser really works...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[Buka]

I'm surprised by that, actually. I don't do LEO nor do I even attempt to play one on TV. I just assumed, and you know how that goes, that a Taser is automatically installed on all LEO utility belts at the factory or something. I suppose not though.

What do they want y'all to do? Just sit and wait... I know it's not just shoot the dude, even though stupidity might warrant that in some opinions. Reaching into a vehicle seems to me to break a lot of rules. The martial kinds of rules, not legal ones.

The whole reaching into the vehicle thing is from my previous life in Federal Law Enforcement. Here, we don't have batons. We don't have tasers. We don't have pepper spray. We don't have a Use of Force Continuum nor a Use of Force Policy. Perhaps the only Police Department in the country that doesn't. Apparently, we are to go from empty hand techniques to deadly force.

If I told you some of the procedures we are asked to follow (what they want us to do) you wouldn't believe me. Not because you might be doubting me, but because you would say "that's just fricken' nuts". And you would be one hundred percent correct.

And these things they want us to do are not even in writing. They are direct orders from above, verbally told to us in roll calls. Such is life on Planet Maui. The only thing I can say is it sure isn't boring.

 

[Brian King]

An interesting scenario came up while I was doing some law enforcement training this past week. Specifically, a fellow student asked the instructor how he would get a non-compliant suspect out of a vehicle. The instructor, who specializes in firearms, not hand-to-hand, suggested an armbar, and I chimed in the nikkyo might be effective for pain compliance. A classmate immediately shot that down, saying that he would uppercut someone who tried it on him.

Issues of power-generation for the seated person aside (if I'm not mistaken, you can't really generate power with your lower body for a strike if you're seated in a driver's seat), does anyone have any training or experience in using Aikido in this scenario? We did a practice run, and I found it extremely difficult because our usual footwork is severely limited by the presence of the car.

@Oni_Kadaki
Congratulations Oni_Kadaki on stretching your training and experience! Putting theory to the test is ALWAYS beneficial. Training in and around vehicles (Auto’s, Planes, Trains, and Buses) has many benefits and can be VERY interesting. It teaches how to do the work in confined spaces while promoting comfort and intimate understanding of the interior and exterior of the vehicle and all its sharp, pointy, dense, and tangling features. All these various features can be used offensively and defensively and can provide many options. It forces movements to be smaller. It allows an opening of the mind to possibilities of improvised weapons. All obstacles and edges are really opportunities with the right experience and mindset.


Reaching into a car has many risks (some obvious and some not so much) that should be weighed and taken into consideration prior to the need arising. Considerations such as. Is the car running? Is the vehicle in park? Is the driver’s side window completely lowered, partially lowered, or completely raised? Is the driver’s side door unlocked? Is the driver’s door opened? Are there multiple persons in the vehicle? Are there children in the vehicle? Are there animals (dogs) in the vehicle? Are the subjects belted? Is the subject under the influence of alcohol and or drugs? Is the subject mentally ill and having issues? Is the subject possibly suicidal? Is the subject possible armed (or within reach) with a firearm, edged weapon or improvised weapon? Do you have help that can keep the subject and other passengers under gun while going hands on or are you by yourself?


Taking someone out of the vehicle also has considerations. Is the vehicle running? Is the transmission in Park? Is there a safe place for the subject to ‘land’? Is there place for the vehicle to ‘land’ should it be rolling/running? Do you wish to take the person out so that they land on their stomach on the ground next to the vehicle or have them stepping out and walking under your control? Do you want the person to land immediately next to the vehicle or a few feet away? Are there obstacles/opportunities immediately in the area, i.e. Curbs, fire hydrants, traffic signs, mailboxes?


If the subject is gripping the steering wheel with death grips, then they are not reaching for weapons. You will have to deal with it eventually but two hands on the wheel gives you time in many cases, they aren’t fighting only resisting by not being cooperative. If you must reach in to turn off vehicle or to start the process for removing seat belt gaining head control and turning the subjects head away from you is very beneficial. It limits their visual and biting cues and screws with their horizon references. That physical contact can be either soft or hard by your choice but either soft or hard it will also give you loads of tactile information about the subject and what is going on with them.


Next time you are training in and around a vehicle Oni_Kadaki look at the hard surfaces around a window and door. For the door there are three surfaces that are very useful. The vertical line (post between drivers’ door and rear passengers door) and horizontal (the floor and ceiling edge of the cab) Both can be used to effectively motivate and control the subject. Think arm bar or leg bar using the mentioned surfaces as the pivot/pain point. If the subject is gripping the steering wheel with all their might saying things like “No, I am not getting out- f-you” this is awesome and an opportunity. If they are focused on gripping and not letting go of the steering wheel no matter what, that is entirely what their brain is focused on. This often gives you the ability to simply lift their near side leg up and out the door before they know what is happening. Using your own leg/body and with their leg now between you and their vehicle use the vertical edge to bar the leg while using one of your arms to help guide and steer their head up and out. Takes a practice time or two but once you have it, you have it. It also gives one less foot to become entangled in the floor pedals. There are many pulls and pins that can be used and explored.


Always beware when pulling a person out that they might come out weaponized and shooting/stabbing. Beware when you can’t see both of their hands, beware when the resistance is not logical (your hand accidently covers their mouth and nose and rather than their reaching for your arms their hands head for their waist, ankle or back, for example) Be ready and willing at all times to disengage and practice methods of doing so (for example you see weapon on or near subject or they engage the drive on the vehicle). While disengaging practice changing levels going to a low type of prone behind subjects’ vision and getting some limited cover from the vehicle. Beware disengaging and putting yourself into danger from passing vehicles or nearby obstacles. Practice drawing and possibly firing your own firearm while disengaging from contact. This isn’t range shooting but near and ugly.


While not an Aikido educational DVDS, the following Systema Car Fight film presents many ideas that you might want to explore. It is not just removing a person but includes working in and around the vehicle. There is a free preview that shows one nice example of using vertical edge…look quick as it looks like just a pull but isn’t. There is also a free teaching segment that is interesting.

Car Fight (DVD)


Good luck and keep up the good work


Regards

Brian King

 

[Oni_Kadaki]

@Oni_Kadaki
Congratulations Oni_Kadaki on stretching your training and experience! Putting theory to the test is ALWAYS beneficial. Training in and around vehicles (Auto’s, Planes, Trains, and Buses) has many benefits and can be VERY interesting. It teaches how to do the work in confined spaces while promoting comfort and intimate understanding of the interior and exterior of the vehicle and all its sharp, pointy, dense, and tangling features. All these various features can be used offensively and defensively and can provide many options. It forces movements to be smaller. It allows an opening of the mind to possibilities of improvised weapons. All obstacles and edges are really opportunities with the right experience and mindset.


Reaching into a car has many risks (some obvious and some not so much) that should be weighed and taken into consideration prior to the need arising. Considerations such as. Is the car running? Is the vehicle in park? Is the driver’s side window completely lowered, partially lowered, or completely raised? Is the driver’s side door unlocked? Is the driver’s door opened? Are there multiple persons in the vehicle? Are there children in the vehicle? Are there animals (dogs) in the vehicle? Are the subjects belted? Is the subject under the influence of alcohol and or drugs? Is the subject mentally ill and having issues? Is the subject possibly suicidal? Is the subject possible armed (or within reach) with a firearm, edged weapon or improvised weapon? Do you have help that can keep the subject and other passengers under gun while going hands on or are you by yourself?


Taking someone out of the vehicle also has considerations. Is the vehicle running? Is the transmission in Park? Is there a safe place for the subject to ‘land’? Is there place for the vehicle to ‘land’ should it be rolling/running? Do you wish to take the person out so that they land on their stomach on the ground next to the vehicle or have them stepping out and walking under your control? Do you want the person to land immediately next to the vehicle or a few feet away? Are there obstacles/opportunities immediately in the area, i.e. Curbs, fire hydrants, traffic signs, mailboxes?


If the subject is gripping the steering wheel with death grips, then they are not reaching for weapons. You will have to deal with it eventually but two hands on the wheel gives you time in many cases, they aren’t fighting only resisting by not being cooperative. If you must reach in to turn off vehicle or to start the process for removing seat belt gaining head control and turning the subjects head away from you is very beneficial. It limits their visual and biting cues and screws with their horizon references. That physical contact can be either soft or hard by your choice but either soft or hard it will also give you loads of tactile information about the subject and what is going on with them.


Next time you are training in and around a vehicle Oni_Kadaki look at the hard surfaces around a window and door. For the door there are three surfaces that are very useful. The vertical line (post between drivers’ door and rear passengers door) and horizontal (the floor and ceiling edge of the cab) Both can be used to effectively motivate and control the subject. Think arm bar or leg bar using the mentioned surfaces as the pivot/pain point. If the subject is gripping the steering wheel with all their might saying things like “No, I am not getting out- f-you” this is awesome and an opportunity. If they are focused on gripping and not letting go of the steering wheel no matter what, that is entirely what their brain is focused on. This often gives you the ability to simply lift their near side leg up and out the door before they know what is happening. Using your own leg/body and with their leg now between you and their vehicle use the vertical edge to bar the leg while using one of your arms to help guide and steer their head up and out. Takes a practice time or two but once you have it, you have it. It also gives one less foot to become entangled in the floor pedals. There are many pulls and pins that can be used and explored.


Always beware when pulling a person out that they might come out weaponized and shooting/stabbing. Beware when you can’t see both of their hands, beware when the resistance is not logical (your hand accidently covers their mouth and nose and rather than their reaching for your arms their hands head for their waist, ankle or back, for example) Be ready and willing at all times to disengage and practice methods of doing so (for example you see weapon on or near subject or they engage the drive on the vehicle). While disengaging practice changing levels going to a low type of prone behind subjects’ vision and getting some limited cover from the vehicle. Beware disengaging and putting yourself into danger from passing vehicles or nearby obstacles. Practice drawing and possibly firing your own firearm while disengaging from contact. This isn’t range shooting but near and ugly.


While not an Aikido educational DVDS, the following Systema Car Fight film presents many ideas that you might want to explore. It is not just removing a person but includes working in and around the vehicle. There is a free preview that shows one nice example of using vertical edge…look quick as it looks like just a pull but isn’t. There is also a free teaching segment that is interesting.

Car Fight (DVD)


Good luck and keep up the good work


Regards

Brian King

Brian,

Thank you for your very comprehensive reply! Some of the points you made were indeed brought up at the training, such as using fixed surfaces as pivot points for armbars. You are also quite right in the sheer number of factors to consider! I work law enforcement part time, and my jurisdiction (a military base) is quite small, and people are generally smart enough to not try anything with us. As a result, I have less practical experience than many civilian LEOs do... Especially around vehicles!

 

[dvcochran]

The more I pull him out the more that far arm goes straight.

View attachment 22388

Hence the sneaky underhook. Which I am a bit proud of.

I very much like this approach but I am left handed so wear my gun on the left. I never liked going in to a car that deep leading with my gun side if I could avoid it. I have been known to grab a hand full of hair and start pulling. Hard. When you feel their resistance, you twist the neck toward the resistance which usually rotates the body so that you can get a rear choke and drag them out. Worked many times for me.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

First off, what is your reasoning for yanking a human being out of a car? That is the first question?

I hate the term suspect...in this day and age, it is mostly an excuse for abuse.

 

[drop bear]

I very much like this approach but I am left handed so wear my gun on the left. I never liked going in to a car that deep leading with my gun side if I could avoid it. I have been known to grab a hand full of hair and start pulling. Hard. When you feel their resistance, you twist the neck toward the resistance which usually rotates the body so that you can get a rear choke and drag them out. Worked many times for me.

Under the near arm should make it safe as houses for gun retention though.

You couldn't easily shoot the guy with your left hand tied up though.

I used to get frowny faces from my boss when I choked people.

 

[drop bear]

First off, what is your reasoning for yanking a human being out of a car? That is the first question?

I hate the term suspect...in this day and age, it is mostly an excuse for abuse.

You want him out of the car and he wants to be in it.

Ok. Paddies nightclub near where I live had a guy who was kicked out for being drunk but didn't like it.

So he got in his car drove it in to the pub pinning a girl against the wall.

Not sure if he was dragged out or did a bolt. But he was grabbed.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

You want him out of the car and he wants to be in it.

Ok. Paddies nightclub near where I live had a guy who was kicked out for being drunk but didn't like it.

So he got in his car drove it in to the pub pinning a girl against the wall.

Not sure if he was dragged out or did a bolt. But he was grabbed.

That would be a good reason. A crime was committed, due to the fact a victim was involved.