Aiki and the streets?

[samurai69]

In a full contact EVENT it is understood that the opponent will have at least some of the same training and be familiar with some of the same techniques which you will be using. The thread was about aikido and the street and my assumption was that we were discussing the run of the mill thug who has no idea that the aikido-ka is allowing the thugs energy to flow freely in order to apply a technique. Sure, if it's a MMA situation then resistance can be applied but I still contend that someone completely untrained in aikido is not going to know when to resist a technique to stop it or even that a technique is being set up.

Man you are so right, i was going to comment earlier, but you seem to have it in the bag

I teach aikido, but over the last year have started to teach RBSD and in a situation where the attacker is not expecting a styalised defence (or specific type of defence ) then aikido techniques work perfectly well,the only disadvantage is the length of time it takes to teach proper and performable techniques to SD students.

To re answer the origional questioon, if the student is at a reasonable level then aiki techniques are as good as (or better than ) many other techniques from many MA's that i have trained in

 

[Connovar]

Thats ok to assume that as long as the "thug" makes some wild swinging attack with very little balance etc. That hasnt been my experience on generally on the street and if they were that bad who needs the martial arts to beat them.

So just get in a ring and see how you do. Losing is part of learning and so is winning. Taking the occasional bell ringer also helps. If you want to learn to swim you have to get in the water and if you want to learn to fight then you just have to fight.

 

[samurai69]

Thats ok to assume that as long as the "thug" makes some wild swinging attack with very little balance etc. That hasnt been my experience on generally on the street and if they were that bad who needs the martial arts to beat them.

So just get in a ring and see how you do. Losing is part of learning and so is winning. Taking the occasional bell ringer also helps. If you want to learn to swim you have to get in the water and if you want to learn to fight then you just have to fight.

I trained in muay thai (properly) for 2 years and had a couple of fights in the ring, i have also seen some fights in the street and would have to disagree, most street altercations have been fairly uncontrolled hits (off balance enough, even when they look balanced) and a rush to grapple -mostly to stop being hit (again mildly off balance)...........also when i train i throw in muay thai type punches and kicks and have still found aiki techniques to be effective enough

 

[green meanie]

In a full contact EVENT it is understood that the opponent will have at least some of the same training and be familiar with some of the same techniques which you will be using. The thread was about aikido and the street and my assumption was that we were discussing the run of the mill thug who has no idea that the aikido-ka is allowing the thugs energy to flow freely in order to apply a technique. Sure, if it's a MMA situation then resistance can be applied but I still contend that someone completely untrained in aikido is not going to know when to resist a technique to stop it or even that a technique is being set up.

No offense because I think I understand what you're saying, but I would look at the fact that you feel you need a 'run of the mill thug' who has no idea what's going on in order for these techniques to work to be an admission that aiki isn't very effective on the streets. Or lets put it this way, I'd rather study an art that you believe would be effective against a skilled fighter than one that isn't.

 

[Henderson]

I have a few problems with some comments made in this thread. I do not mean to find fault with one individual, it's just that the quote below was rather frank and to the point, which is a good thing.

So just get in a ring and see how you do......and if you want to learn to fight then you just have to fight.

I believe this thread was created to discuss the street effectiveness of a particular art. People equate sparring and ring fighting with street fighting...again. They are not the same, they're not even close. You cannot train for a full-blown street altercation by putting on sparring gear and going a few rounds. It will not prepare you. The only way to truly train for the street and actually test your skills would be to really fight, without rules, without judges, with the real possibility of injury.


Respects,

Frank

 

[Connovar]

I believe this thread was created to discuss the street effectiveness of a particular art. People equate sparring and ring fighting with street fighting...again. They are not the same, they're not even close. You cannot train for a full-blown street altercation by putting on sparring gear and going a few rounds. It will not prepare you. The only way to truly train for the street and actually test your skills would be to really fight, without rules, without judges, with the real possibility of injury.

Technically the only way a soldier can experience warfare is to get in a real firefight. So does that mean the military should not force on force training to prepare its soldiers and instead just have them practice shooting at stationary targets.

Granted full contact sport is not identical to street but it is a whole lot closer than drilling against non resisting opponents. Even your competitive MMA is not fully prepared for the streets. They dont deal with weapons or multiples for example.

IMO the best answer for the aikidoka who doesnt spar is not to worry about using his/her aikido for self defense. Use for it attribute development, fitness etc. Do some short course's such as F.A.S.T. etc and periodically review them your self defense needs. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Henderson]

I agree.

 

[dianhsuhe]

"Master Ueshiba concluded that the true spirit of Budo is not to be found in a competetive and combative atmosphere where brute strength dominates and victory at any cost is the paramount objective. He concluded that it is to be realized in the quest for perfection as a human being, both in mind and body"

This is a blurb from "The Spirit of Aikido" (Kisshomaru Ueshiba)

As mentioned, Aikido can be made effective for the streets but there is a LOT more to Aikido than that...If your primary objective is to prepare yourself for the streets, it'll be awhile for ya.

For example, in Kara-Ho Kempo we utilize KI principles and learn a few Aikido techniques as well. I trained for a little over 1 year (read: no expert at all) in Aikido separately and I loved it! In those classes it seemed that if I resisted my limbs would most certainly be broken...

 

[green meanie]

"Master Ueshiba concluded that the true spirit of Budo is not to be found in a competetive and combative atmosphere where brute strength dominates and victory at any cost is the paramount objective. He concluded that it is to be realized in the quest for perfection as a human being, both in mind and body"

This is a blurb from "The Spirit of Aikido" (Kisshomaru Ueshiba)

No offense intended to the late O-Sensei or to the practitioners of his art but this quote raises the question: Does brute strength have to dominate in a competitive and combative atmosphere? Isn't the reason we all practice is because we believe superior technique will defeat brute strength?

 

[madfrank]

Hi

Ask any LEO, bouncer, cop, street thug, what works in the street and they MA with experience.

And they will tell you it is gross motor responses and being pre-emptive.

Action beats reaction.

Stress makes it impossible to utilise fine motor skills.

Most so called MA attacks will never happen in the street; stepping punches, wrist grabs, spinning back kicks, over head knife hand strikes etc or very rarely at least.

Does your MAS practice the above?

And what film stars make work after choreography and re-takes with fellow actors has no rellevence to the street.


MF

 

[Henderson]

Does brute strength have to dominate in a competitive and combative atmosphere?

No, it does not.

Isn't the reason we all practice is because we believe superior technique will defeat brute strength?

Why, yes...it is.

Good points, Denny.

 

[Yari]

I'm not sure that I agree.

I do belive that the correct technique will optimize the changes for the outcome to be what fits me, but, but, but..........

What is brute force, and which criteria will define my success compared to it?

I think it's wrong to think that just because I'm praticing af "finer art" I will be able to handle brute force. And concidering SD, how much is needed in the finer art to handle brute force? A little girl will not stand much of a chance against a very large man using brute force.

So I'm no sure....

/yari

 

[Connovar]

You need a combination of strength and technique in general for a technique to work against a skill resisting opponent. Fine motor skills break down under stress so strength to some degree will be needed. Does it mean you to need to be a body builder? No! However you will need some to compensate for the unknowns and unexpected actions during combat

 

[amir]

Connovar,

Did you ever learn any style of Aikido?
I have not seen you write anything on Aiki, instead, you are trying to prove your private point of view on the right way to practice for "the street".

Personally, the style I learn has free-play (Randori) as part of it's foundations, the free-play section is included to all forms of practice, including the armed practice (Jo, Boken, Wakizashi, Tanto, Bo etc. and the mixes) and has no technical limitations. However, I would not call Randori sparring. When I was younger, I often let the Randori deteriorate into a sparring contest, to the dismay of my teacher. Today, I know better, I use the Randori for learing skill, rather then as a test. I know the techniques work, I don't need to test them. I do need to learn, and mostly improve my movement (especially the hip/waist), become softer and more sensitive and improve my timing, particularly for the less expected moves.
I recently met a friend who is learning Tomiki Aikido. This is a style of Aikido whose path is much closer to Judo. They hold Shiai (competition sparring) and work "full force and speed". I enjoyed working with him and practicing Randori. We did find out his style has modified the techniques they allow in Rnadori to prevent injury when working full force. For me, this modification is actually a deformation - the techniques no longer work and can be easily pose a threat of injury and can be evaded until a later stage by being softer. This is a general problem Aikido techniques should break joints without much force, when applied properly (i.e. in aiki way - smooth small move, short duration, surprising, correct timing, good kuzushi), this is the way I learn, I know other places teach other ways. I have felt the danger more then once in Randori. Therefore, I rather keep my practice slow and correct instead of getting used to full force and speed but incorrect technique. This is my choice, others can make another.




madfrank

Generally, you are correct. When attacked by surprise, the adrenalin has a tendency to rise and it is difficult to perform anything fine, only gross moves are possible.

Some M.A. will accept this and teach you gross moves. This is more common among modern M.A.
Other M.A. decide to fight the source of the problem - the fighter himself. Try to teach him to remain calm under duress, and perform as well and better then normal. This concept is quite common among the Japanese M.A. including the Koryu styles that were invented at times of internal war.

One could look at this as styles that were originally only meant for the best. Just like the great basketball players are those that keep their calm in the storm, think and act, so are the best fighters. Those were the fighters that survived the fights and developed Japanese Martial Arts. Those fighters were the ones who promoted the idea of Aiki, long before the 20th century and the birth of any Aikido style.

If you look at the Aikido techniques, non of them was invented by Aikido, they all originate from older styles (this is true for all the styles of Aikido I know of). The difference is that Aikido is taught to everyone who wishes to learn. Now days, to get to the level where one could remain calm under duress, one should practice in a serious manner with a great teacher and for a long time or - experience enough stressful situations to get used to it (someone I know told me about the latter - from his personal experience).



Amir

 

[Connovar]

Connovar,

Did you ever learn any style of Aikido?
I have not seen you write anything on Aiki, instead, you are trying to prove your private point of view on the right way to practice for "the street".

Personally, the style I learn has free-play (Randori) as part of it's foundations, the free-play section is included to all forms of practice, including the armed practice (Jo, Boken, Wakizashi, Tanto, Bo etc. and the mixes) and has no technical limitations. However, I would not call Randori sparring. When I was younger, I often let the Randori deteriorate into a sparring contest, to the dismay of my teacher. Today, I know better, I use the Randori for learing skill, rather then as a test. I know the techniques work, I don't need to test them. I do need to learn, and mostly improve my movement (especially the hip/waist), become softer and more sensitive and improve my timing, particularly for the less expected moves.
I recently met a friend who is learning Tomiki Aikido. This is a style of Aikido whose path is much closer to Judo. They hold Shiai (competition sparring) and work "full force and speed". I enjoyed working with him and practicing Randori. We did find out his style has modified the techniques they allow in Rnadori to prevent injury when working full force. For me, this modification is actually a deformation - the techniques no longer work and can be easily pose a threat of injury and can be evaded until a later stage by being softer. This is a general problem Aikido techniques should break joints without much force, when applied properly (i.e. in aiki way - smooth small move, short duration, surprising, correct timing, good kuzushi), this is the way I learn, I know other places teach other ways. I have felt the danger more then once in Randori. Therefore, I rather keep my practice slow and correct instead of getting used to full force and speed but incorrect technique. This is my choice, others can make another.

Yes I have done some aikido. More importantly I have fought against people trying to use. In my experience they have been the easiest to defeat. The overrelance upon "blending" with the attack leaves them essentially helpless against feints and combinations. However this discussion was about aikido and the streets. IMO aikido is fine for attribute development but the way it is usually practiced with non resistive partners is generally inadequate alone for the street. There is nothing wrong with doing aikido for its physical, mental and emotional benefits. Its just not a very good way to train for self defense. You wouldnt drag race with a bulldozer and you wouldnt clear a field with a dragracer. Different tools for different needs. The error is trying to make one size fit all. You may not like my opinion and that is ok. We will just disagree.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

my sensei once said that aikido was NOT designed by Uyeshiba O-sensei as a war art/battlefield art. In fact, it was designed as a vehicle to teach love and harmony. To use aikido for the battlefield is very possible, but it was not the intention of the founder.

all the great aikido masters such as Tomiki, Mochizuki, Tohei, Shioda and off course O-Sensei himself were already great masters of Judo and Jujutsu before they learn the aiki arts. So they already mastered self-defense. But they stick with aikido because they want to learn self-mastery and self-improvements, which, ultimately, are more important than just self-defense.

however, sensei also said that if you have already good grounding/foundation in an art designed for self-defense, then by adding aikido or other aiki arts into it, you will see your techniques becoming supercharged, becoming more effective.

 

[arnisador]

I agree that adding a bit of aikido training can be a help. It improves your locks and your ability to get to where you can apply them, obviously, but I found it esp. helpful for adding big, sweeping movements that occasionally are helpful--like when trying to dodge two or three opponents at once, or when you really need to get to the side or rear of your opponent. I didn't do it for long, but I did take some things away from it.

 

[Connovar]

I agree, aikido can help definitely be helpfull with development with attributes that are usefull in self defense.

IMO there are few systems out there that are really good for self defense. I base this on 35+years of MA including dan rankings in multiple systems. Ever system has it weakness. Currently I mainly do boxing and bjj, but they would not be my first choice for self defense. A good self defense system needs striking and grappling, standing and ground, multiple and single opponent training and training against weapons. Few systems do that and that is ok. They would also have to practice these against full resistance. For me I train in what I enjoy and what provides me health and fitness. If I had to fight against multiples or an armed opponent then thats why I legally carry a concealed handgun.

 

[Satori]

As mentioned, Aikido can be made effective for the streets but there is a LOT more to Aikido than that...If your primary objective is to prepare yourself for the streets, it'll be awhile for ya.

I think this really explains a lot of it.

I put Aikido in the same category as certain styles of Tai Chi. Sure, if you train hard enough ANY martial art can be effective on "The Street (TM)"...but I don't believe Morihei Ueshiba planned on creating "The Ultimate Street Self Defense"...he had far different goals in mind.

If you're looking for "The Ultimate Street Self Defense", then I think you'll be sorely disappointed with Aikido and the length of time required to utilize it properly.

 

[Fightfan00]

Just like any other martial art theres techniques that you pick from and try that will be effective and some that wont be even close.I do belive if a technique gets botched up in an altercation that you should strike as much as you possibly can.Its the street right?So you have to do anything you possibly can to survive.