Afghanistan's Tet?

[Tez3]

The French there first, we came second and if I remember correctly most of our advisors said we should not go there

And as a side note when you say "The Americans" you are pretty much saying every single person that lives within the country of America and in the mid-60s that was about 194,000,000 and today it is about 311,800,000. So do you honestly believe that Americans seem to have a fear of communism...all Americans?

Sorry, I realize you likely do not mean every single American but I have a REAL pet peeve about gross generalizations and I am kind of getting sick and tired of so many blaming "Americans" when in fact we have much less control over what those in charge do than most outside of the USA believe and many of those inside as well... and that has not changed for the better since the Mid 60s

However, I have yet to meet, speak to or know of an American other than members of the American Communist party who will say anything good or even of a reasonable interest in the fact that communism and communists have anything to offer. I have never read an American write anything positive about communism...and I read extensively. I am not blaming 'Americans' for things I know they don't control, it's no different here, but on the subject of communists and communism I have yet to find an American who will not either condemn it or will consider it as something that some people actually want to have or to be. Are there Americans who will look at communism and communist politics without at the very least a jaundiced eyed?

 

[oftheherd1]

I think you are misunderstanding me here. A conscripted army isn't worse than a professional one but a conscripted soldier is less engaged in doing the job than a professional soldier who makes it their career for 20 odd years. A conscript is less well trained by the army simply because they don't consider it worth putting the time, energy and money into someone they know will only be in the army a couple of years. A professional soldier's training is going to be far more comprehensive. An army of consripts is a different animal to an army of professionals so please don't read into what I said something I didn't mean. Crimes were covered up in Vietnam, we know that's so because the information came out later, I assume too knowing human nature tha crimes will be covered up if possible by people in Afghanistan but the difference now is that commanders etc are far more aware of the consquences of not being honest and of the feeling that if something is wrong it's reported and dealt with properly.

Maybe I used a poor choice of words. I guess I should have asked why a conscripted army was less efficient than a profession army. Then your answer would fit.

Even so, I disagree. I don't recall the figures for training a soldier (or other service person) to get them through basic and advanced individual training, but it isn't cheap. Your argument that they are less well trained simply isn't true for the USA army. All members got the same training, because they were all expected to perform to a certain standard that made success as probably as possible, nor would have made economic sense. Also, imagine the outcry, at least in the USA over the fact that draftees had a recognizable percentage advantage of being killed over their enlistee brothers.

I don't know about your country, but in the USA, all receive the same training based on demonstrated aptitude and time in service. Granted, the professional, with more time in service, will get more advanced training. But when you talk battlefield survival, all get the same basic and advanced training before going into battle. And I think it not hard to believe, that "professional" or conscript, at the battlefield level, both wish and demand the same skill sets in order to survive and keep their cohorts alive, and protecting them, in order for as many as possible to return home. I appreciate you clarification as to what you meant, but I just don't disagree for the US Army.

As to things being covered up: for sure things were covered up in Vietnam, and in subsequent wars. But do you think that only occurred in the US military? Do you think that all crimes were covered up until someone blew the whistle long after the fact? If you believe that, you are mistaken. I am not even comfortable with the fact that commanders "all" know that it is better to bring things to light as quickly as possible. There will always be some that will try to hide things for any number of reasons. I wish that were not so.

The Americans seem to have a fear of communism to such an extent that they will countenence and support dictatorships of all other kinds as long as they are anti communist. The communists in Vietnam were fighting against a dictatorship, it wasn't a democratice government they were trying to replace. Now whether you regard a communist government as a dictatorship or not the fact remains that America in Vietnam was not supporting a democratically elected government, it was trying to stop a communist one. Communism might not be your thing but if the people of a country wish to have a communist government it's no business of any other country, the sole purpose of America being in Vietnam was to stop the communists not to advance democracy or to rid the world of a terrorist organisation.

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/wars_vietnam_1954_1968.html

Every country picks and chooses its enemies, or vice-versa. It then decides how to defend against them. Does your country do any differently? And the point obviously is that sometimes we pick allies, and sometimes those allies are allies of convenience. I think your country has/does the same. So if we have decided that a communist country is not our friend, we may decide that an ally we need, even if not ordinarily someone we would support, we will do so to gain them as an ally. I don't think many countries do otherwise, including your own.

Was the south's government a dictatorship, yes. But you almost make it sound as if that made the communist's actions OK. Surely you didn't intend that did you? And surely you didn't wish to imply that the communists were not also dictators? So we chose a dictatorship that was willing to ally with us over one that wasn't. Your country has done the same, yes? And I don't know of any instances of people willingly and freely choosing a communist government, or at least wishing to keep it as soon as they realize the consequences. So I don't think I understand your point.

Perhaps you can enlighten me. Bear in mind, I understand my country is not perfect, but we try at least part of the time.

 

[oftheherd1]

However, I have yet to meet, speak to or know of an American other than members of the American Communist party who will say anything good or even of a reasonable interest in the fact that communism and communists have anything to offer. I have never read an American write anything positive about communism...and I read extensively. I am not blaming 'Americans' for things I know they don't control, it's no different here, but on the subject of communists and communism I have yet to find an American who will not either condemn it or will consider it as something that some people actually want to have or to be. Are there Americans who will look at communism and communist politics without at the very least a jaundiced eyed?

That is very likely true. We tend to think that all communist governments are dictatorships.

 

[Xue Sheng]

However, I have yet to meet, speak to or know of an American other than members of the American Communist party who will say anything good or even of a reasonable interest in the fact that communism and communists have anything to offer. I have never read an American write anything positive about communism...and I read extensively. I am not blaming 'Americans' for things I know they don't control, it's no different here, but on the subject of communists and communism I have yet to find an American who will not either condemn it or will consider it as something that some people actually want to have or to be. Are there Americans who will look at communism and communist politics without at the very least a jaundiced eyed?

Well of course all of the 311 million Americans judge Communism the exact same way, all of us tend to be rather power hungry, close minded and petty too. You see all Americans are made from the same cookie cutter, go to the same exact school and are all taught the same exact thing so we all think alike and if there are no foreigners around to see us we all dress alike too.

I guess I am not in much of a mood today to be labeled or lumped into a generalization based on a couple books, but it has been my experience that people tend to look for and read things to support their beliefs. But more to the point; yes you have, not personally but electronically. You need to read more carefully. There are also a few professors in various universities throughout the USA that write about it and study it without a jaundiced eye.

I don’t condemn communism any more than I condemn capitalism. I have seen with my own eyes people living happily in China with no desire to move and posted on MT a few years back that it was not evil like many were claiming in whatever post that was. Of course I was told I was flat wrong but then I had been there and they hadn’t and what is is so I dod not much care. I have also said that there are no true Communist Governments on the planet there are countries ruled by a Communist Party but they are not exactly a Communist society.

With all that said, feel free to label any way you prefer, I am currently wondering why I got involved in this at all and basically no longer care

 

[Xue Sheng]

That is very likely true. We tend to think that all communist governments are dictatorships.

all that proves is that we don't understand what dictatorship means.

 

[Makalakumu]

While we're talking about communists...

I just listened to former Soviet officer Oleg Novinkov give an interview on his experiences as an occupying soldier in Afghan. It's fascinated how similar the Soviet propaganda and NATO propaganda was. It's also fascinating how so many of the same things that happened to the Soviets are happening to the Western countries who invaded. Take a listen, it's about a half an hour.

http://antiwar.com/radio/2012/04/22/oleg-novinkov/

Oleg Novinkov, former Soviet officer and author of Afghan Boomerang, discusses the propaganda-filled book Charlie Wilson’s War about the CIA operation to arm mujaheddin in their fight against the Soviet army in Afghanistan; the Western media’s re-labeling of Afghan “freedom fighters” as “terrorists” once the US invaded; why Afghans would rather be occupied by the Soviets than the US/NATO; how a new Cold War with China will eventually displace the War on Terror as the top US priority; and why Gorbachev, Yeltsin, and perestroika are much more respected in the West than in Russia.

Oleg Novinkov was a Soviet Air Force flight surgeon who was stationed in Kabul, Ghazni, and Bagram while in Afghanistan during the Soviet-Afghan War. After returning from the war, he became involved in supporting the Soviet space program as a flight surgeon and medical researcher at the Institute of Medical and Biological Problems. He subsequently emigrated from Russia to the United States in 1995. Since then, he has worked in various capacities as an international space medicine consultant in support of NASA.

Maybe the current war in Afghanistan is just like every other war in Afghanistan? Why compare it to Vietnam at all?

 

[Tez3]

Maybe I used a poor choice of words. I guess I should have asked why a conscripted army was less efficient than a profession army. Then your answer would fit.

Even so, I disagree. I don't recall the figures for training a soldier (or other service person) to get them through basic and advanced individual training, but it isn't cheap. Your argument that they are less well trained simply isn't true for the USA army. All members got the same training, because they were all expected to perform to a certain standard that made success as probably as possible, nor would have made economic sense. Also, imagine the outcry, at least in the USA over the fact that draftees had a recognizable percentage advantage of being killed over their enlistee brothers.

The training of a conscripted soldier is likely to be less than that of a volunteer for the simple reason that the conscript doesn't want to be there and is being taught things he really doesn't want to know and can't imagine needing to know. Remember the old adage about one volunteer being worth ten pressed men.

I don't know about your country, but in the USA, all receive the same training based on demonstrated aptitude and time in service. Granted, the professional, with more time in service, will get more advanced training. But when you talk battlefield survival, all get the same basic and advanced training before going into battle. And I think it not hard to believe, that "professional" or conscript, at the battlefield level, both wish and demand the same skill sets in order to survive and keep their cohorts alive, and protecting them, in order for as many as possible to return home. I appreciate you clarification as to what you meant, but I just don't disagree for the US Army.

I think the problem with discussing the conscription in the American army at the time of Vietnam is that it's going to end up a discussion of rich v poor people, black v white etc etc and exactly who was called up and who wasn't. I'm not sure we should go done that line. It would take the thread away from it's subject and I think would be contentious. I have friend, an American MMA fighter and judge who was a conscript and served in Vietnam, being injured there. His storieds are heart breaking about who was conscripted and how they were treated in training as well as out in the field.



As to things being covered up: for sure things were covered up in Vietnam, and in subsequent wars. But do you think that only occurred in the US military? Do you think that all crimes were covered up until someone blew the whistle long after the fact? If you believe that, you are mistaken. I am not even comfortable with the fact that commanders "all" know that it is better to bring things to light as quickly as possible. There will always be some that will try to hide things for any number of reasons. I wish that were not so.

I know it happens in all militaries as well as all organisations, one of our tasks is to investigate such things which is why I know things get covered up and how they get out as well as how they are treated correctly. I think perhaps you are misunderstanding what I'm writing, probably my fault for being a bit brief!




Every country picks and chooses its enemies, or vice-versa. It then decides how to defend against them. Does your country do any differently? And the point obviously is that sometimes we pick allies, and sometimes those allies are allies of convenience. I think your country has/does the same. So if we have decided that a communist country is not our friend, we may decide that an ally we need, even if not ordinarily someone we would support, we will do so to gain them as an ally. I don't think many countries do otherwise, including your own.

However a small country like Vietnam was neither a threat nor a valuable ally for a country like America, it seemed at the time and still does to be honest that America got involved with Vietnam only because the communists were trying to take over. there just seemed no other reason to get involved with what was going on there.

Was the south's government a dictatorship, yes. But you almost make it sound as if that made the communist's actions OK. Surely you didn't intend that did you? And surely you didn't wish to imply that the communists were not also dictators? So we chose a dictatorship that was willing to ally with us over one that wasn't. Your country has done the same, yes? And I don't know of any instances of people willingly and freely choosing a communist government, or at least wishing to keep it as soon as they realize the consequences. So I don't think I understand your point.

If people wanted a communist govenment why stop it, if they didn't and there was no threat to your country why interfere? Lots of countries have governments that aren't what we'd elect or wish for but we can't go around invading them all. why did the American government at the time get involved with a small, poor and uninfluencial country like Vietnam? Why not leave it to the Vietnamese to sort out?

Perhaps you can enlighten me. Bear in mind, I understand my country is not perfect, but we try at least part of the time.

Communism is not necessarily the worst thing in the world, there's plenty of countries that have worse political systems or none at all in places such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Syria, Iran etc etc. there's plenty of dictatorships where the rights of people are less than those in communist countries so holding communists as being the spawn of Satan is unrealistic.
My country allies with countries that are friendly and/or can offer us something regardless of what their political system is, we are algined with some communist places and, sadly to my mind as well as others also with countries where the human rights records are appalling such as Turkey. Our country looks for allies that can do us some good, communist, dictatorships or whatever it's a case of what's in it for us. We don't hold communism as being any worse than any other political system. We'll invade a place because it's in our interest too but not because it looked like it was going to turn communist. Korea taught us that, never again. We had whole regiments wiped out there.

The two 'sides' in Vietnam were as bad as each other though the non-communists may actually have the edge in the league table of human rights abuses and terror tactics as well as sleaze, no outside country should have been supporting either side though. Supporting an inhuman regime just because they weren't communists is not a legitimate or moral reason.

 

[oftheherd1]

Maybe I used a poor choice of words. I guess I should have asked why a conscripted army was less efficient than a profession army. Then your answer would fit.

Even so, I disagree. I don't recall the figures for training a soldier (or other service person) to get them through basic and advanced individual training, but it isn't cheap. Your argument that they are less well trained simply isn't true for the USA army. All members got the same training, because they were all expected to perform to a certain standard that made success as probably as possible, nor would have made economic sense. Also, imagine the outcry, at least in the USA over the fact that draftees had a recognizable percentage advantage of being killed over their enlistee brothers.

The training of a conscripted soldier is likely to be less than that of a volunteer for the simple reason that the conscript doesn't want to be there and is being taught things he really doesn't want to know and can't imagine needing to know. Remember the old adage about one volunteer being worth ten pressed men.

Maybe it is a cultural thing, I don't know. But in the USA, I did not observe that during the time of the draft. Usually, draftees were a little older and more mature. I think that helped them to be willing to learn what they were being taught. And I still say knowing you may or will be going into combat is a great incentive to learn what will help you survive better. And I don't think I recall hearing that old addage. We do have something of a history of volunteering for wars though, so that may explain why we were able to exist more or less on that, instead of forming press gangs.

I don't know about your country, but in the USA, all receive the same training based on demonstrated aptitude and time in service. Granted, the professional, with more time in service, will get more advanced training. But when you talk battlefield survival, all get the same basic and advanced training before going into battle. And I think it not hard to believe, that "professional" or conscript, at the battlefield level, both wish and demand the same skill sets in order to survive and keep their cohorts alive, and protecting them, in order for as many as possible to return home. I appreciate you clarification as to what you meant, but I just don't disagree for the US Army.

I think the problem with discussing the conscription in the American army at the time of Vietnam is that it's going to end up a discussion of rich v poor people, black v white etc etc and exactly who was called up and who wasn't. I'm not sure we should go done that line. It would take the thread away from it's subject and I think would be contentious. I have friend, an American MMA fighter and judge who was a conscript and served in Vietnam, being injured there. His storieds are heart breaking about who was conscripted and how they were treated in training as well as out in the field.

Well, personally, if any posts move in that direction, I would try very hard not to be bated.

As to things being covered up: for sure things were covered up in Vietnam, and in subsequent wars. But do you think that only occurred in the US military? Do you think that all crimes were covered up until someone blew the whistle long after the fact? If you believe that, you are mistaken. I am not even comfortable with the fact that commanders "all" know that it is better to bring things to light as quickly as possible. There will always be some that will try to hide things for any number of reasons. I wish that were not so.

I know it happens in all militaries as well as all organisations, one of our tasks is to investigate such things which is why I know things get covered up and how they get out as well as how they are treated correctly. I think perhaps you are misunderstanding what I'm writing, probably my fault for being a bit brief!

It just seemed to me you were applying that to the USA only. If I was wrong, my apologies.


Every country picks and chooses its enemies, or vice-versa. It then decides how to defend against them. Does your country do any differently? And the point obviously is that sometimes we pick allies, and sometimes those allies are allies of convenience. I think your country has/does the same. So if we have decided that a communist country is not our friend, we may decide that an ally we need, even if not ordinarily someone we would support, we will do so to gain them as an ally. I don't think many countries do otherwise, including your own.

However a small country like Vietnam was neither a threat nor a valuable ally for a country like America, it seemed at the time and still does to be honest that America got involved with Vietnam only because the communists were trying to take over. there just seemed no other reason to get involved with what was going on there.

It was called the domino theory. Whether or not you agree that was a valid reason, it seemed to make sense to a lot of people at the beginning.

Was the south's government a dictatorship, yes. But you almost make it sound as if that made the communist's actions OK. Surely you didn't intend that did you? And surely you didn't wish to imply that the communists were not also dictators? So we chose a dictatorship that was willing to ally with us over one that wasn't. Your country has done the same, yes? And I don't know of any instances of people willingly and freely choosing a communist government, or at least wishing to keep it as soon as they realize the consequences. So I don't think I understand your point.

If people wanted a communist govenment why stop it, if they didn't and there was no threat to your country why interfere? Lots of countries have governments that aren't what we'd elect or wish for but we can't go around invading them all. why did the American government at the time get involved with a small, poor and uninfluencial country like Vietnam? Why not leave it to the Vietnamese to sort out?

I agree that if majority of a population wants a communist government, they should have that right as long as we don't believe a communist government would then turn on us. But anyway, I see you do agree that counties have the right to act in what they deem is in their best interests as they deem for survival. The reason given for involvement in South Vietnam, as I stated above, with the domino theory. We thought there was the probability that if the North forcefully reunified the whole country, communism would then be spread by force to the rest of indochina. There was certainly no oil or precious minerals to draw us there. And the North had a heavy presence in Laos and Cambodia, and went to war with Cambodia for a while.

Perhaps you can enlighten me. Bear in mind, I understand my country is not perfect, but we try at least part of the time.

Communism is not necessarily the worst thing in the world, there's plenty of countries that have worse political systems or none at all in places such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Syria, Iran etc etc. there's plenty of dictatorships where the rights of people are less than those in communist countries so holding communists as being the spawn of Satan is unrealistic.

I don't recall speaking of them as spawn of Satan, but yes, we do tend to think of them as dictatorships that wish to subjegate the rest of the world.

My country allies with countries that are friendly and/or can offer us something regardless of what their political system is, we are algined with some communist places and, sadly to my mind as well as others also with countries where the human rights records are appalling such as Turkey. Our country looks for allies that can do us some good, communist, dictatorships or whatever it's a case of what's in it for us. We don't hold communism as being any worse than any other political system. We'll invade a place because it's in our interest too but not because it looked like it was going to turn communist. Korea taught us that, never again. We had whole regiments wiped out there.

Well, I guess we do the same given the chance.

The two 'sides' in Vietnam were as bad as each other though the non-communists may actually have the edge in the league table of human rights abuses and terror tactics as well as sleaze, no outside country should have been supporting either side though. Supporting an inhuman regime just because they weren't communists is not a legitimate or moral reason.

I just don't believe you can equate the tactics of the north and south. I don't intend to imply that the south was errorless, but they simply did not commit the steady stream of atrocities that the north did. If you were there and did not see it that way, you must have seen things most did not. If you weren't there, I guess you would have to take the word of those who were there, and evaluate their perceptions or agendas.

 

[Tez3]

Well of course all of the 311 million Americans judge Communism the exact same way, all of us tend to be rather power hungry, close minded and petty too. You see all Americans are made from the same cookie cutter, go to the same exact school and are all taught the same exact thing so we all think alike and if there are no foreigners around to see us we all dress alike too.

I guess I am not in much of a mood today to be labeled or lumped into a generalization based on a couple books, but it has been my experience that people tend to look for and read things to support their beliefs. But more to the point; yes you have, not personally but electronically. You need to read more carefully. There are also a few professors in various universities throughout the USA that write about it and study it without a jaundiced eye.

I don’t condemn communism any more than I condemn capitalism. I have seen with my own eyes people living happily in China with no desire to move and posted on MT a few years back that it was not evil like many were claiming in whatever post that was. Of course I was told I was flat wrong but then I had been there and they hadn’t and what is is so I dod not much care. I have also said that there are no true Communist Governments on the planet there are countries ruled by a Communist Party but they are not exactly a Communist society.

With all that said, feel free to label any way you prefer, I am currently wondering why I got involved in this at all and basically no longer care

Temper temper, I'm not labelling Americans as all the same, I'm pointing out that in my experience meeting, talking to and reading what Aemricans say, it seems thea communism is the one thing that Aemricans agree on as being 'bad'. It has nothing to do with schools jobs, race or religion, I simply have never heard or read of any American other than a member of the American communist Party think that communism had any redeeming features. Prove me wrong, show me articles where Americans have looked at communism as anything other than 'evil'. In my 50 odd years I have read considerable more than a couple of books, have known considerable more Americans than just a couple as well as having spoken to many Americans who were all as different from each other as it's possible to be yet the one thing they all had in common, apart from being American, was that they were all anti communist with communism being as I said 'evil'. In this one thing I have yet to find an American who thinks communism isn't a bad thing. As I said prove to me that Americans discuss communism in the same way they discuss any other political system.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Temper temper,

Not mad, just bored, and don't like gross generalizations....but I am keen to try one in a minute

I'm not labelling Americans as all the same, I'm pointing out that in my experience meeting, talking to and reading what Aemricans say, it seems thea communism is the one thing that Aemricans agree on as being 'bad'. It has nothing to do with schools jobs, race or religion, I simply have never heard or read of any American other than a member of the American communist Party think that communism had any redeeming features. Prove me wrong, show me articles where Americans have looked at communism as anything other than 'evil'. In my 50 odd years I have read considerable more than a couple of books, have known considerable more Americans than just a couple as well as having spoken to many Americans who were all as different from each other as it's possible to be yet the one thing they all had in common, apart from being American, was that they were all anti communist with communism being as I said 'evil'. In this one thing I have yet to find an American who thinks communism isn't a bad thing.

funny, I thought I was an American...:hmm: guess I was wrong

As I said prove to me that Americans discuss communism in the same way they discuss any other political system.

Nope, don't really care. You have made your decision and you are convinced your right... But then that just like the British when it comes to all things American

if you truly care you will look....

 

[WC_lun]

Tez, I don't think communism is the evil thing that many do. I prefer capitalism, because it is what I know, and even in its' excesses I understand it mechanizations. I have friends in other countries that are under comunist rule. Most are happy. It seems only when human nature rears its ugly head and small men get greedy to possess more is when they become unhappy. Much the same as our own countries, huh? I figure to each his own. If someone in another country prefers communism then so be it. I do also understand that comminism and totalarism are not the same, and I cannot agree to the later.

You will see very few Americans who do not have total negative views of communism. Until very recently communism was the enemy. If you didn't hate it with all your guts, you were somehow disloyal to America. Even today it is used to steer our political discussions. You hear the cries of "Its socialism!" when the target of said label is not. However, people hear that cry and react to it. We are conditioned to do so.

 

[granfire]

Tez, I don't think communism is the evil thing that many do. I prefer capitalism, because it is what I know, and even in its' excesses I understand it mechanizations. I have friends in other countries that are under comunist rule. Most are happy. It seems only when human nature rears its ugly head and small men get greedy to possess more is when they become unhappy. Much the same as our own countries, huh? I figure to each his own. If someone in another country prefers communism then so be it. I do also understand that comminism and totalarism are not the same, and I cannot agree to the later.

You will see very few Americans who do not have total negative views of communism. Until very recently communism was the enemy. If you didn't hate it with all your guts, you were somehow disloyal to America. Even today it is used to steer our political discussions. You hear the cries of "Its socialism!" when the target of said label is not. However, people hear that cry and react to it. We are conditioned to do so.

yep, pretty much what she has been pointing out all along.

 

[Tez3]

Not mad, just bored, and don't like gross generalizations....but I am keen to try one in a minute




funny, I thought I was an American...:hmm: guess I was wrong




Nope, don't really care. You have made your decision and you are convinced your right... But then that just like the British when it comes to all things American

if you truly care you will look....

Bollocks, I told you I was speaking from my experience, I didn't say I'd randomly decided to label all Americans as one thing, YOU decided I'd done that. You decided I was getting at all Americans, you read into what I'd written what you wanted to not what I had actually written.

So you are a communist then?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Tez
I have not read any response you may have written to my lastpost as I type this because I do not want to respond with any anger what-so-ever.

I have reread my last two posts and although they did not start out angry in retrospect they did angry, my apologies for that. Also I find blanket statements and generalizations quite distasteful and I apologize for my use of one and I apologize to any who consider themselves British if they were offended by it.

Now you are to be congratulated for pulling me off center. I am not sure if it was planned or just luck or if you simply missed the point of what I was saying so I will clarify

You made a statement and professed it with “The Americans”and this implies all Americans and there are roughly 312 million Americans and that statement would apply to all from the east to the west coast from Mexico to Canada and all natural and naturalized people that are legally Americans.

You later asked for proof in the form of an Author or a government person and that request may have come from my prior post that was getting a bit angry and going off point

You see here is the thing, I do not need to provide any suchproof since your statement implies all Americans and I am an American that does not think the way you say we all do. Therefore your statement is wrong. Additionally I am willing to bet (and I only bet on sure things) that I am not the only American that thinks this way. Once again your statement (The Americans) which implies all is wrong. Now let’s go to those Americans that arenot born here but are legally Americans. I am equally certain that some ofthose Americans do not think the way you are claiming we all think, Again your statement is wrong. You see I only need to prove that 1 American does not think the way your statement implies that we all do to prove it wrong.

Now if you had said the things you have read form America ormany Americans or any other that doesnot imply all I would have had no issue.

Once again I find myself much deeper into the Study that Iever wish to be and with that I bid you adieu.

EDIT

I just read your response and no I am not a communist, I am also not a Republican or a Democrat. And yes I did decide you had labelled all Americans since you statement "The Americans" implies all Americans.

Now are you saying that I need to be a Communist to not vilify any government that is?

You have a good day

 

[Tez3]

I asked if you were a communist and you think I'm saying you need to be a communist to comment? Wow, I think you have taken this the totally wrong way. The things you think I mean I don't, the things you think I said I haven't. You are reading stuff into my posts that aren't there, I'm sorry for that because I don't want to fall out over this.
WC_ lun gave me the answer I was looking for without rancour, Gran backed it up.

 

[Xue Sheng]

:hmm: Out of that entire post you picked out the following and ignored the rest...interesting.

I asked if you were a communist and you think I'm saying you need to be a communist to comment? Wow, I think you have taken this the totally wrong way. The things you think I mean I don't, the things you think I said I haven't. You are reading stuff into my posts that aren't there, I'm sorry for that because I don't want to fall out over this.
WC_ lun gave me the answer I was looking for without rancour, Gran backed it up.

Please allow me to answer

No I do not think that at all, I was just asking a simple question for purposes of clarification, I did not say that is what you thought....so who is reading stuff into posts and taking things totally wrong


Now

The things you think I mean I don't, the things you think I said I haven't.

Since you are clainming that there are things I think you have said that you haven't then allow me to ask

Did you or did you not say "The Americans"? since that is the only thing I think you said.


As to the answers that you wanted and liked, did you miss this one from me?

I don’t condemn communism any more than I condemn capitalism. I have seen with my own eyes people living happily in China with no desire to move and posted on MT a few years back that it was not evil like many were claiming in whatever post that was. Of course I was told I was flat wrong but then I had been there and they hadn’t and what is is so I dod not much care. I have also said that there are no true Communist Governments on the planet there are countries ruled by a Communist Party but they are not exactly a Communist society.

 

[Tez3]

I said the Americans seem to think... that's what it looks like from outside, you have the McCarthy era, you have the media, films, books, newspaper articles, even comedy programmes all with people/characters condemning communism as the most evil thing ever, it's been like that since the end of the last World War. You have comic characters,politicians, newsreaders even, condemning communism, speeches are made, the whole of America's foreign policy at one time seemed to be solely about beating the communists, you even invaded Grenada! Cuba is still ostracised by America, how do you think the rest of the world sees the American view on communism?
http://john-kirshon.suite101.com/mccarthy-launches-anti-communist-witch-hunt-a199887

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2751/is_n45/ai_18827121/
http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/ramblings/anticomm.html

http://antimisandry.com/politics-go...icans-hate-communism-22169.html#axzz1t4a2yr1p
http://www.jfredmacdonald.com/trm/111spytv.htm
http://www.jfredmacdonald.com/trm/111children.htm
http://www.museum.tv/eotvsection.php?entrycode=blacklisting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Nightmare
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1225859?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=47698930198347



I'm not ignoring your qustions and I'm not picking what I want to answer, I'm looking after my daughter who has just got out of hospital and am just popping in and out of MT for a bit of R&R. I have no intention of arguing. If you have been outside your country then you know what the perception of America and communism. You have successive governments who preach the evils of communism, there seems to be no dissenting voice to this portrayal that we can see outside America. You are in a country that is known specifically for it's opposition and hatred of communism and one that has taken steps to interfere in other countries politics to try to fight communism. It's logical to conclude from the mass media reports plus what Americans have told me for me to conclude that America is a place that is vehemently anti communist.

right I'm off to make chicken soup, I kid you not she can't eat anything solid at the moment.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I said the Americans seem to think... that's what it looks like from outside, you have the McCarthy era, you have the media, films, books, newspaper articles, even comedy programmes all with people/characters condemning communism as the most evil thing ever, it's been like that since the end of the last World War. You have comic characters,politicians, newsreaders even, condemning communism, speeches are made, the whole of America's foreign policy at one time seemed to be solely about beating the communists, you even invaded Grenada! Cuba is still ostracised by America, how do you think the rest of the world sees the American view on communism?
http://john-kirshon.suite101.com/mccarthy-launches-anti-communist-witch-hunt-a199887

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2751/is_n45/ai_18827121/
http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/ramblings/anticomm.html

http://antimisandry.com/politics-go...icans-hate-communism-22169.html#axzz1t4a2yr1p
http://www.jfredmacdonald.com/trm/111spytv.htm
http://www.jfredmacdonald.com/trm/111children.htm
http://www.museum.tv/eotvsection.php?entrycode=blacklisting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Nightmare
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1225859?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=47698930198347



I'm not ignoring your qustions and I'm not picking what I want to answer, I'm looking after my daughter who has just got out of hospital and am just popping in and out of MT for a bit of R&R. I have no intention of arguing. If you have been outside your country then you know what the perception of America and communism. You have successive governments who preach the evils of communism, there seems to be no dissenting voice to this portrayal that we can see outside America. You are in a country that is known specifically for it's opposition and hatred of communism and one that has taken steps to interfere in other countries politics to try to fight communism. It's logical to conclude from the mass media reports plus what Americans have told me for me to conclude that America is a place that is vehemently anti communist.

right I'm off to make chicken soup, I kid you not she can't eat anything solid at the moment.

Actually you said

The Americans seem to have a fear of communism to such an extent that they will countenence and support dictatorships of all other kinds as long as they are anti communist. The communists in Vietnam were fighting against a dictatorship, it wasn't a democratice government they were trying to replace. Now whether you regard a communist government as a dictatorship or not the fact remains that America in Vietnam was not supporting a democratically elected government, it was trying to stop a communist one. Communism might not be your thing but if the people of a country wish to have a communist government it's no business of any other country, the sole purpose of America being in Vietnam was to stop the communists not to advance democracy or to rid the world of a terrorist organisation.
l

This, to me, implied all.... but I would not disagree with your post as to why America was in Vietnam.... however there were many in many America at the time that did not believe we should be there at all. Sadly they took that out more on the solider and not those that sent them there.... but no matter, I'm done with this

I hope your daughter feels better soon.

 

[Tez3]

Actually you said



This, to me, implied all.... but I would not disagree with your post as to why America was in Vietnam.... however there were many in many America at the time that did not believe we should be there at all. Sadly they took that out more on the solider and not those that sent them there.... but no matter, I'm done with this

I hope your daughter feels better soon.

I say what I mean, surely by now people should realise I don't 'imply' anything. I mean what I said, America seems to have a fear of communism I said that because it does seem to have a fear of communism, looking at the media, the actions, the comments, books, articles, television programmes, the McCarthy Era and after, you must admit that certainly seems like you all have a fear of communism, I don't see, which is why I asked before, anyone refuting this general hatred for the system of communism, at one point your government was going to make it illegal to be a communist party member. It very much seems as if the country has a fear of communism. As I said America invaded Grenada a very tiny island because it didn't want communists in power there so my comments aren't that far off being correct are they? The CIA got involved in Italian general elections for the same reason, there's been a lot of interference in countries by Americans because of this fear of communism, of course not every single citizen knew about this, was involved or approved but it was done in your name all the same. Yes Britain has done similiar things but is far more cold blooded in that it's done to protect British business interests from anyone not just communists, it's also done on a far smaller scale as we lack the resources of the USA.

We've has a nasty scare with my daughter, she contacted a virulent infection from a dental abscess she didn't know she had. Had to have emergency op after being in horrible pain, to remove a tooth and have a drain put in that went right up under her eye plus drips for painkillers and antibiotics.

Whether you have a fear of communism or not never ever fear a dentist, always have your teeth checked. She had a bit of a sensitive tooth, we'd had a lot of ice cream on holiday, but it was a very slight chip on one tooth that nearly killed her, if the infection had spread a just little more upwards to the brain, that would likely have been it. It had got to her eyes, closing them as well as across most of her face, spread very quickly, frightenly so. anyway she's on the mend now thank goodness.

 

[elder999]

As part of my government clearance, I had to state that I "was not, and never had been a member of the Communist party." Ditto for simply working in a nuclear power plant. Interstingly, my grandparents' membership, circa 1930, when it was fashionable, also came up during my investigation for my government clearance-I had to disavow their membership, since they were both long dead...:lfao:-just for some perspective.