Advantage Martial Arts Has Over Guns

[gyoja]

So where do you teach?

Louisiana and on a federal installation.

 

[PhotonGuy]

It is surprisingly effective in developing countries.

He mentioned a country in Africa but didn't say what country. Some countries in Africa are more developed than others.

 

[gyoja]

He mentioned a country in Africa but didn't say what country. Some countries in Africa are more developed than others.

Quite true, but I know the countries in which he was implying. In the context of the discussion, we were talking about gun culture in developing nations.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Where I am carrying even concealed is illegal, unless you are a police office or a hunter in the woods with a license to hunt.
Here it is also illegal to even carry a knife on your pocket, even pepper spray is illegal. Not only to use, but to carry!

So where are you from?

I wasn't commenting from legal aspects but from tactical aspects. I assumed all this talk was for people in USA, where I understand that in some states, things are to say the least, very liberal.

By liberal I take it you mean democratic. In some states in the USA they are very liberal in that regard, in other states not so.

I've been to usa a few times and was told that in some states almost everyone has a gun in their car for example. Not sure if it is true but sounds nuts to me

Again, that depends where in the USA. Not in a state such as New Jersey where guns are frowned upon. In a state such as Pennsylvania on the other hand, that would be much more likely.

 

[PhotonGuy]

My personal opinion is that most cops don’t need to carry firearms everywhere they go.

They don't. Sometimes cops will secure their firearms in lockers outside before going into certain buildings such as prisons and court rooms.

And those that do should be exceedingly well trained.

But all too often they aren't. Mandatory firearms training for police is very marginal.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Hot take, but if you ask me, you should have at least a basic understanding of hand to hand combat before being allowed anywhere near a firearm. You can't even throw a proper punch and you expect me to trust you with a handgun?

Being able to throw a proper punch is different than being able to properly handle and use a handgun.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Additionally, range performance is not real world performance. You aren't yourself when adrenalized...

What I was taught is that you're about as half as accurate when dealing with a real world situation instead of performing at the range. So if you land a group of shots on a target at the range, in a real world situation your grouping will be about twice as large. That's just what I was taught in the classes I've taken.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Louisiana and on a federal installation.

So your classes aren't available to the public I take it.

 

[gyoja]

So your classes aren't available to the public I take it.

Most are, but some are not. The ones that are not available to the public are because they are contracted by an agency. An example is when a Sheriff’s Department pays for a course for their deputies, etc.

 

[gyoja]

It means exactly what it says, the ability to stop. The ability to make it so that your attacker is no longer coming at you.

Small caliber rifle or pistol bullets will rarely stop or knock down a living target immediately. "Stopping power" is not supported by scientific evidence, hence the reason that it is not used in the firearms community anymore. All attempts to establish an accurate, neutral and repeatable system to measure bullet stopping power have failed. Ammunition is now tested for reliable expansion, penetration and weight retention. These areas give us an idea of how that bullet and caliber combination will behave in an environment that simulates living tissue.

 

[Fungus]

So where are you from?

I'm in Scandinavia, pepper spray is classified as a weapon, and is not allowed to carry.
Simlarly illegal to carry is knifes, knuckle braces, nun chucks etc... I have nun chucks that I use just for training hand/arm/upperbody coordination at times for fun, but they are made or rubber and are not considered a weapon.

Pepper spray is harsh, there are however legal self defense spray that you can carry based on menthol; that's not to say of course that USING menthol spray randomly is legal Less harsh to your mucous membranes but enough to temporarily blind our opponent if it gets into the eyes.

By liberal I take it you mean democratic. In some states in the USA they are very liberal in that regard, in other states not so.

By liberal I mean more "free", that the individual gets to decide more. Genereally this is a good thing, but it's question if the "freedom to carry arms and weapons" are good for the society overall? As it also increases the chance of fatal outcomes if everyone in general walkes around with more powerful weapones. So it's not same as democratic(*).

(*) Also, for someone outside USA, I think the terms liberal and democrats has some domestic political meaning, but this is NOT at all what I refer to. The terms have a different meaning for me. For me "democratic" means things are decided by democratic decisions, and then the individual or minority have to accept majority decisions. Not sure what the politicial meaning is in USA, I am not very interested in politics it's just a big mess. We don't have the same classification of politics as libreal/democratic in scandinavia. It's more right/left. But I think even most "left" you ever get in US, is alot to the right of the most "right" in Scandinavia.

Again, that depends where in the USA. Not in a state such as New Jersey where guns are frowned upon. In a state such as Pennsylvania on the other hand, that would be much more likely.

Yes I understand that the regulations are very different in all the states, I've only so far visited Chicago, Minneapolis and Boston years ago but never had any trouble.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I'm in Scandinavia, pepper spray is classified as a weapon, and is not allowed to carry.
Simlarly illegal to carry is knifes, knuckle braces, nun chucks etc... I have nun chucks that I use just for training hand/arm/upperbody coordination at times for fun, but they are made or rubber and are not considered a weapon.

Pepper spray is harsh, there are however legal self defense spray that you can carry based on menthol; that's not to say of course that USING menthol spray randomly is legal Less harsh to your mucous membranes but enough to temporarily blind our opponent if it gets into the eyes.

So where in Scandinavia are you from, what country? I've been to both Denmark and Norway but I haven't been to the third country that makes up Scandinavia, Sweden. The laws must differ for those three countries.

By liberal I mean more "free", that the individual gets to decide more. Genereally this is a good thing, but it's question if the "freedom to carry arms and weapons" are good for the society overall? As it also increases the chance of fatal outcomes if everyone in general walkes around with more powerful weapones. So it's not same as democratic(*).

(*) Also, for someone outside USA, I think the terms liberal and democrats has some domestic political meaning, but this is NOT at all what I refer to. The terms have a different meaning for me. For me "democratic" means things are decided by democratic decisions, and then the individual or minority have to accept majority decisions. Not sure what the politicial meaning is in USA, I am not very interested in politics it's just a big mess. We don't have the same classification of politics as libreal/democratic in scandinavia. It's more right/left. But I think even most "left" you ever get in US, is alot to the right of the most "right" in Scandinavia.

Well without getting too much into politics I will say that terms such as "liberal" and "conservative" have certain political meanings and imply certain political positions. Generally speaking if somebody in the USA is a liberal they don't like guns, unlike conservatives. Not that all liberals and conservatives fit into that mold it's just a generalization but when you mention a liberal viewpoint on guns in the USA it means a viewpoint where guns are frowned upon.

Yes I understand that the regulations are very different in all the states, I've only so far visited Chicago, Minneapolis and Boston years ago but never had any trouble.

Chicago and Boston are both very liberal and by liberal I mean what I described above. Im not so sure about Minneapolis although it is in Minnesota which is less liberal than lots of other states.

 

[Fungus]

So where in Scandinavia are you from, what country? I've been to both Denmark and Norway but I haven't been to the third country that makes up Scandinavia, Sweden. The laws must differ for those three countries.

I'm in Sweden. I'm not expert on all the details of the laws, and yes there are some differences but I think generally all the scandnavian countries are quite similar in this respect. The culture is also quite similar as we are neighbours and a tradition of cooperation and common history even before EU, although there are differences of course.

Well without getting too much into politics I will say that terms such as "liberal" and "conservative" have certain political meanings and imply certain political positions. Generally speaking if somebody in the USA is a liberal they don't like guns, unlike conservatives.

Oh! when then is then the opposite meaning of "liberal" to what I meant

 

[Hot Lunch]

Small caliber rifle or pistol bullets will rarely stop or knock down a living target immediately. "Stopping power" is not supported by scientific evidence, hence the reason that it is not used in the firearms community anymore.

All these semantics, I'd personally rather not deal with. You can hunt turkeys with a .410, but good luck trying to put down a wild boar with that. Someone hunting wild boar is likely going to use .45-70, because of... I'd better not say "stopping power." Call it what you want, but we know it when we see it.

 

[gyoja]

All these semantics, I'd personally rather not deal with. You can hunt turkeys with a .410, but good luck trying to put down a wild boar with that. Someone hunting wild boar is likely going to use .45-70, because of... I'd better not say "stopping power." Call it what you want, but we know it when we see it.

This is exactly the point that I am making. Target drives caliber selection. One could use a 120mm sabot round for deer hunting, since it is guaranteed to destroy the target, but doesn’t make it practical. Therefore, one has to select a caliber that is sufficient to complete the task; including proper bullet type and considerations such as capacity. Field studies show that shot placement is the single largest killing factor among capable self defense calibers.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Field studies show that shot placement is the single largest killing factor among capable self defense calibers.

Yes, the highest self-defense caliber that you can shoot accurately. One thing that seems to be consistent is that if you can shoot them all accurately, the calibers that get pushed the most is .357 Mag if you like revolvers, and .40 S&W if you like semi-auto. Granted, terms like "stopping power" are often used when these recommendations are being made. However, I've read about police officers in the 1970's and 1980's - when revolvers were the norm - being issued .357 revolvers. Many choose to load them with .38 Sp, because they didn't feel confident in their ability to accurately shoot .357 rounds. But those that did feel confident in their abilities with .357 rounds chose them every time.

 

[gyoja]

Yes, the highest self-defense caliber that you can shoot accurately. One thing that seems to be consistent is that if you can shoot them all accurately, the calibers that get pushed the most is .357 Mag if you like revolvers, and .40 S&W if you like semi-auto. Granted, terms like "stopping power" are often used when these recommendations are being made. However, I've read about police officers in the 1970's and 1980's - when revolvers were the norm - being issued .357 revolvers. Many choose to load them with .38 Sp, because they didn't feel confident in their ability to accurately shoot .357 rounds. But those that did feel confident in their ability to do so chose them every time.

Agreed, if it was the 1980s, or even most of the 1990s. Bullet construction and technology has increased drastically. My contention is that 9mm is the most common LEO round. .40 seems to have fallen out of favor due to the studies and adoption by the FBI.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

What Im talking about is how to deal with the situation afterwards, when the law comes into play.

Massad Ayoob. Look him up, Youtube, Amazon, Spotify.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

This is exactly the point that I am making. Target drives caliber selection. One could use a 120mm sabot round for deer hunting, since it is guaranteed to destroy the target, but doesn’t make it practical. Therefore, one has to select a caliber that is sufficient to complete the task; including proper bullet type and considerations such as capacity. Field studies show that shot placement is the single largest killing factor among capable self defense calibers.

Shot placement is shot placement. Bullet nerding is for precision shooters and assaulters killing terrorists wearing S-Vests.

 

[gyoja]

Shot placement is shot placement. Bullet nerding is for precision shooters and assaulters killing terrorists wearing S-Vests.

True, but bullet tech is the driving factor for all major LE agencies and Military. Effective round plus capacity.