addressing your teacher

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by SingingTiger
I meant to imply that the relationship was voluntary, as the teacher-student relationship is: the student can walk away whenever they choose, and the instructor can choose to expel the student.

Rich

BINGO

 

[rmcrobertson]

Um...ah...I'm gonna skip most of it. I realize you don't like my interpretations, but to argue that there's no basis for them or that I "overinterpret," is, well, mistaken. And I'd be interested to see where I used the word, "laughable," in another thread, since I try very had to avoid engaging in personal diatribe. if so, perhaps it's my bad...but I might note that interpretation becomes necessary because folks don't say what they mean.

I'm sorry for your "perception," and you're certainly entitled to it. However, the fact that in this country we are entitled to hold, voice, write and teach pretty much anything we want does not make us correct. Lots of folks believe we never landed on the moon: are they right, just because they believe it? Clearly not; that's all I'm sayin'.

As for the argument that the BB certificate remarks don't pertain to this discussion--well, look at the top of the thread. It's classified as a Kenpo thread, right? Well, the founder of kenpo made some pretty strong statements about calling martial arts instructors, "masters,"--he appears to have been agin it, unless I'm wrong, always a possibility--and his descriptions off BB levels don't describe anybody as a master. To repeat, it seems to have been in Mr. Parker's writings that there are instructors, and professors, and associate masters, and masters of arts, but no just plain "masters." One of the few very best contemporary kenpo guys, and teachers, and writers, Larry Tatum, follows that lead. Hm.

I might add that the whole philosophy of American kenpo seems to be simultaneously a deconstruction and a rationalization of traditional martial arts and their concepts of mastery, but that'd be highfalutin intellectoolism, something of which I am never guilty.

There is such a thing as "underinterpretation," however. You might go re-read the posts on this string, in which I mentioned (just to cite a coupla examples) having friends who call some of their teachers, "master," and not seeing anything too wrong with it, or my noting that I might be overarguing, or that I simply didn't have to use the term so I'd gotten used to it...but I suspect there's no point in my mentioning this. Have at it; I quit.

I quite liked Sigung 86's way of discussing this, which I thought was intelligent, tactful, and to the point. And while I suspect that we wouldn't quite use the same terminology, it makes sense to me to think of this as symptomatic of something lacking in everyday American life.

Here's a story from a kind of BS book by, "John Gilbey," that I rather like, titled, "The Way Of A Warrior." Chapter XIII, "The Master of Applied Cowardice," paraphrases a great story by Bertold Brecht this way: "A town is conquered by vandals and the high priest's home is taken over by their commander. He brusquely tells the priest--'You will clean my house, prepare my food, and cater to my every wish. You will be my slave. Do you consent?' Without answering, the priest sets about scrubbing the floor and doing other menial jobs. He serves the commander for ten years, at the end of which time the commander dies and his army is overthrown. The priest buries him, then spits on the grave and answers, 'No.'"

Good for him, and I'll leave it at that for the time being.

 

[SingingTiger]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I realize you don't like my interpretations, but to argue that there's no basis for them or that I "overinterpret," is, well, mistaken.

That may be, I don't suppose there's any way of proving the point. I've thought on more than one occasion after reading a post of yours that you were assuming motives and arguments about someone else that weren't evident in the post to which you were replying. But maybe I'm just guilty of over-interpretation myself.

I'd be interested to see where I used the word, "laughable," in another thread, since I try very had to avoid engaging in personal diatribe.

This thread. You're about 3/4 of the way down.

the fact that in this country we are entitled to hold, voice, write and teach pretty much anything we want does not make us correct.

I wholeheartedly agree, and I'm sure we agree on many other things as well. I'll simply leave it at the fact that I think my definition of "matters of opinion" is much broader than yours (feel free to tell me I'm wrong).

Rich

 

[rmcrobertson]

Fair enough about the, "laughable," though I might note that it would be simpler just to say, "I'm hacked off at you because...."

Still, not everything is a matter of opinion, you know.

It isn't a matter of opinion, for example, that I used the i-word...

 

[Old Warrior]

I don't get the problem with using a title someone has earned. I am 54, have a number of college degrees and professional licenses and earn a respectable living. I spend my days calling people "Your Honor" who have very little and know even less.

If a legitimate 7th degree black belt who has earned the title "Master" in his art wants the appellation - give it to him. My Kumdo instructor earned the title, has spent his entire life training and earns a very modest living from his small school. He works hard, runs a great class, is sincere and truly wants you to learn and enjoy the training. The bow and the title are all part of the tradition and it doesn't diminish me at all. Lastly, if it makes him feel respected for his 30 years of devoted training - I think he's earned it.

 

[SingingTiger]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Fair enough about the, "laughable," though I might note that it would be simpler just to say, "I'm hacked off at you because...."

Where's the fun in that? I read this board for, a) education, and b) entertainment. A thread like this isn't likely to be all that educational (at least not like the threads in the technical forum), but it can certainly be entertaining. Seems to me that using a derisive term in regard to someone's opinion when (and only when) that person has used the term on someone else's opinion qualifies as entertainment, but I suppose our opinions might differ there (and I won't be surprised if you tell me that "what's entertaining" isn't really a matter of opinion).

It isn't a matter of opinion, for example, that I used the i-word...

What?

Rich

 

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

As for the argument that the BB certificate remarks don't pertain to this discussion--well, look at the top of the thread. It's classified as a Kenpo thread, right? Well, the founder of kenpo made some pretty strong statements about calling martial arts instructors, "masters,"--he appears to have been agin it, unless I'm wrong, always a possibility--and his descriptions off BB levels don't describe anybody as a master. To repeat, it seems to have been in Mr. Parker's writings that there are instructors, and professors, and associate masters, and masters of arts, but no just plain "masters." One of the few very best contemporary kenpo guys, and teachers, and writers, Larry Tatum, follows that lead. Hm.

http://www.ltatum.com/

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Larry uses the term Master Tatum on his website to promote himself and association, but that's as far as it goes. When we walk into our studio Larry is there to greet us, and most of us say "Hey Larry, what's up". He is one of the few of that rank and stature who are entitled to a little more pomp and circumstance, but he prefers to just be Larry. This is something else that has kept me at his side for the last decade or so, along with his excellent skills as a Kenpoist. I don't ever think I've seen him get excited over being called Master Tatum when he has a name that he prefers to use.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Larry uses the term Master Tatum on his website to promote himself and association, but that's as far as it goes. When we walk into our studio Larry is there to greet us, and most of us say "Hey Larry, what's up". He is one of the few of that rank and stature who are entitled to a little more pomp and circumstance, but he prefers to just be Larry. This is something else that has kept me at his side for the last decade or so, along with his excellent skills as a Kenpoist. I don't ever think I've seen him get excited over being called Master Tatum when he has a name that he prefers to use.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

I like that, uses the title professionally, but is down to earth.:asian:

 

[Hollywood1340]

And you're just Clyde......sir.
Saw video of you from one of Mr. Tatums camp, you've got a wicked Dance of Death. Verily wesome. Enjoy the nice weather. If it keeps up like this the ice caps will melt and most of Cali will be underwater. And MT will be within a resonable distance to a beach, finally. But it's gonna be a hell of a fire season this year. And on a topic note, my instructor is Master, but Mister is fine. Most of us just call him Sir, and "Hey Todd" calls for a beating. Simple respect in our eyes, like you'd call your teacher in school Mr/Ms/Mrs. Here I am with John. Grandmaster Pelligrini to me
Cheers

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
I don't get the problem with using a title someone has earned. I am 54, have a number of college degrees and professional licenses and earn a respectable living. I spend my days calling people "Your Honor" who have very little and know even less.

If a legitimate 7th degree black belt who has earned the title "Master" in his art wants the appellation - give it to him. My Kumdo instructor earned the title, has spent his entire life training and earns a very modest living from his small school. He works hard, runs a great class, is sincere and truly wants you to learn and enjoy the training. The bow and the title are all part of the tradition and it doesn't diminish me at all. Lastly, if it makes him feel respected for his 30 years of devoted training - I think he's earned it.

Well said sir, you hit it right on the...:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

I was absolutely with you right up to the very last line...then, I part company. It seems to me that a real "master," whatever the hell that means, wouldn't need a title to feel respected.

 

[Old Warrior]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I was absolutely with you right up to the very last line...then, I part company. It seems to me that a real "master," whatever the hell that means, wouldn't need a title to feel respected.

Why not? Why am I entitled to the benefit of a person's life devotion for the mere pittance of my dojang fees. The Master has no social standing (outside the school), no money, his family just gets by, and yet he takes the time to teach me.

I once showed up on a snowy day and I was the only one there. I asked if I should wait to see if anyone would come, thinking he would cancel class if no one showed. He looked at me like I was crazy and told me to change. He gave me a private lesson that was terrific. I'll never be any good. I'm just an old guy with a sincere interest. In his world, he's famous. In my world, the only real return he gets is the respect I give him. Whether he needs my respect or not, isn't the point. He's earned it and it would diminish me, not to give it.

 

[Kirk]

My ex TKD instructor, Master Choe, said that in Korea, "Master" is
a term widely used in TKD. For their culture, it doesn't have the
negative conotation that our country's past has given to the
term. It's no different than "Teacher" to them.

Their insistance on using the term isn't as egocentric as it seems
to Americans.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Um...I think you didn't read my post, or the post to which I was responding.

I agreed with everything, right up to the point at which it was claimed that somebody truly adept needed a title to feel respected. I'm probably being excessively nit-picky, but it does seem to me that there's a difference between what we as students are comfortable with, and what an instructor might need.

I take the points about, "master," just signiofying a technical competence--but in English, in Western culture, the word simply has inescapable connotations--in this culture, for example, its flip side is, "slave."

Another of its connotations has to do with wisdom--so I repeat, why would somebody really wise need to be called, "master?" Doesn't wisdom suggest being a little more grown up that that?

Thans: nice story, incidentally.

 

[SingingTiger]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Um...I think you didn't read my post, or the post to which I was responding.

I realize this wasn't directed to me, so I hesitate to respond lest you think I'm just trying to continue an argument with you. But since I've thought about mentioning this before, this seems like a good place: using the "quote" feature of this bulletin board software makes it clear what you're responding to, and minimizes the need to scroll back and forth. I know I'd find it helpful in your lengthier posts. That's my opinion, anyway, take it for what it's worth. (Personally, I try to edit the quotes to save space, especially now that they're so much larger than they were before the Big Crash. But again, that's just my preference.)

I take the points about, "master," just signiofying a technical competence--but in English, in Western culture, the word simply has inescapable connotations--in this culture, for example, its flip side is, "slave."

I'd argue that the connotations are only inescapable if you ignore context. If someone mentioned the term out of context, the master/slave relationship might be the first one to come to mind; I really couldn't say now, having been involved in this discussion. But given the context of a martial arts school, that's not the first connotation that comes to mind. But that's just me.

By the way, I was sincere in wanting to know what you were referring to with the term "i-word." Your prerogative whether you'd like to explain or not, I just thought I'd make it clear that I didn't intend my one-word question to imply I wasn't really interested.

Rich

 

[rmcrobertson]

I actually meant to write, "l-word," but that's what happens when you hurl a cuppa coffee onto your keyboard. I now have a new keyboard.

As for the bit about context over-ruling connotation, nope, sorry. Words do not simply mean whatever we wish them to mean--whether we like it or not, they drag along all the meanings they've acquired in history.

I'm stealing the point from Walter Benjamin, "The Task of the Translator." He argues that translation is in fact an impossibility for just this reason: when we "translate," a word, we're stripping off everything that gives it its full meaning, and settling for an approximation.

So, for example, when we translate words like, "sensei," or whatever, we're losing the cultural context that gave them their meaning. A word like, "master" then ends up with some unpleasant connotations, no matter how well some individual uses it. Or-as others have pointed out on this string--it acquires something more than the relatively-narrow meaning of, "one who is proficient at a certain technique," with which it began.

I still don't get why anybody even WANTS to be called, "master." I find it repugnant, and I suspect that the older I get, the more revolting I'd find it.

Hey, think that one causes argument...about a third of the time I can't even recollect that Mr. Tatum calls his school a "studio," (a place for studying/producing the art), not a "dojo," (a place for studying the way).

Thank you.

 

[Jill666]

I like "dojo" for it's connotations- also everyone else knows where I'm going if I off to the dojo. But if I say club, school or studio, confusion results.

I do call my instructor Shihan, or sir on occasion, and have no problem with that, but you're so right, I would never call that man "master"! Which is precisely what I am doing. Hmmm.

Connotations are stronger than context. Some words produce a visceral response, plain and simple.

 

[Old Warrior]

I concede the political correctness point. From the perspective of an African American I accept that that the word is repugnant.

Nevertheless, in the context of the discussion, there can be no mistake that the word is being used to connote a title, conferred by study and exam, in Korean culture. Actually the 7th Dan rank gives the title "Grand Master" but that too could be seen as suggesting an abhorent picture.

In life, I make it a habit to ask new acquaintenances "how do you like to be addressed?" It never crossed my mind to think of the word in the context of 1860 history. It's 2003 and I'm really enjoying the study of Kumdo.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Ya know, I never even thought of African-Americans and the issue of American slavery, let alone, "political correctness." I guess that pretty much proves my point about words having inescapable meanings....

I absolutely disagree that it's a matter of being stuck in the 1860s. It's a matter of recognizing the texture of the present, its richness, its depth.

And I still haven't seen an answer concerning the question about just why it is that a grown person would even WANT to be called, "master," on a regular basis. Especially in 2003...but I guess here, we agree on wanting to live in the present.

More to the point, here's a question: what do people actually think when they encounter somebody who's calling themselves, "master?" I have to say that I haven't met anybody yet, personally, who wants it...to repeat the Clyde, everybody I know who uses it at all, drags it out on formal/ceremonial/professional occasions (and even then, not always)...so I just have no experience with it. Nor do I want any--unless they're over 147 years old...