Addressing people.

[Gerry Seymour]

Matthew 5:5.

Can you tell us what you mean, for those of us who haven't memorized that book?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Great post. It's very contextual. Some very arrogant people will humble themselves within a particular context.

And to be clear, traits can be encouraged and evolve. They are just much more reliant on the person's willingness to change them, which is often only the case if they are experiencing some life changing event.

But either way, folks can learn without humility, though it can certainly limit progress.

Another thought occurred to me on this. We also tend to adopt behaviors and attitudes of those around us. If a group regularly expresses humility (I'm not talking about the oath - that's just a reminder), the members are individually more likely to express it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think that's just overconfidence.

My experience is that overconfidence is often accompanied by (and often caused by, though it's hard to be certain of causality) arrogance. I've seen people who were overconfident but not arrogant. I can't think of having seen the opposite, though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see what you mean now. If the school is run much like a temple (which I've heard of) then yeah, it wouldn't be for me. But I went to religious schools as a kid, catholic for a year and lutheran for two. I'm not religious but had no issues politely bowing my head for prayer or attending devotions every Wednesday morning. I still learned history, algebra, and language arts. How would this be any different?

Same for me.

And I would never sign up for those schools, then complain about the religion. Here's where the exceptions come in and we step into hypotheticals. If the school that promotes humility has the best fight training in the city, someone not interested in developing humility might still want to train there. But someone who expresses distain for that aspect of the school is unlikely to thrive there (if the school actually stands by their credo), so even with its good training, it would be a poor choice for them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just to clarify my point because I'm worried it's being lost in translation. Humility is a trait, and like all core traits and values, it takes two things for them to change. First, an openness to it, and second, a catalyst for it (i.e, a significant life event). I've seen a lot of guys experience this in BJJ and they don't last long if they aren't willing to change.

BJJ's model tends to encourage humility (either by developing it, or discouraging those who don't have it - as you said). They're going to be submitted a lot pretty early in training. Unless they are a rare specimen, they'll need to be humble enough to be okay with that process. Arrogant people would typically only survive in that environment if they can dominate far more often than not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've always referred to my own abilities as merely "average", "adequate" and never as "good". Usually in my own dojo or around my (and other's) students, the various titles of sensei, hanshi, grandmaster, sir and sometimes even simply my name is used; and I'm okay with anything as long as it's okay for children to hear. Often in social situations I'm addressed with a title. But in my view titles appropriate for the dojo have no need to be used OUTSIDE the dojo. In a high ranking teacher's (and very dear friend's) dojo where I last trained along with the students I, like his students, addressed him as "sir" even though we were the same rank. Outside the dojo I addressed with his first name. It varies from dojang to dojang and teacher to teacher, but it doesn't feel right for a teacher to require students to use a title for addressing him/her. If the style/art/founder has the tradition of using titles, that would be the notable exception.

I know of some dojo/teachers who address the students as "sir" and I think it's a nice tradition.

When I was coming up through the ranks in NGA, everyone was Mr./Mrs./Ms. Sometimes honoraries were used for instructors (sir or sensei), but mostly they were also Mr. ________. That's not my style, and doesn't continue with my students, but I kinda miss it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

***EDIT***
After re-reading my post from yesterday I can certainly see where my last comment can be misunderstood.
To clarify, I meant all the emotional stuff is not consistent. In my opinion, character changes and sometimes even wanes for some people. But it is a basic trait which I believe we all have. What brings it out and how it is cultured/nurtured is different for everyone.
How 'loudly' it is seen in a person is also different for everyone.

Every personality trait (the stuff that is wired into our brains) can be expressed in different ways. And all can be suppressed for periods (talkative people can be quiet, for instance). Learning when and how to express/suppress is a large part of emotional intelligence.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

people are talkibg as uf beibg humble is a positive trait and humilating people, to teach them humility is good for them, thats largely the attitude of bullies, there are suruations were it can be handy, but you can fake it, you dont have to be it

ive been humbled a few times in my life,, that hasnt given me great humility, i just come back stronger, literally and figuratively, untill i get even

i was sat outside my coffee bar, when some old bloke shambled up, on two walking sticks, he made the mistake of introducibg himself and i realised he was one of the older kids at school.

so i took his sticks off him and broke them, thats what you get for stealing my lunch money in 1973, the look on his face when i handed the broken bits back was priceless

Where did someone talk about humiliating people? I must have missed that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i spent all of my five years at high school trying not to get beaten up, and failing mostly i was very small as an early teen, and a big chunk of the next 5 tracking them down and extracting revenge, funny how they didnt want to fight when i was 6 inches bigger,, some let it lie if they begged, others that was not nearly enough

there is no expirary date on my grievances, once your in the grudge book your in for life, eventually il get them

that guy was three years older, much bigger, when he head butted me and took my money, he got of lightly

I was the same way in school. Oddly, I didn't find it necessary to look any of those guys up afterward. I just went on and lived life, pretty much forgot about the stupid things some other kids did. Didn't really matter.

 

[dvcochran]

Can you tell us what you mean, for those of us who haven't memorized that book?

Matthew 5:5, NLT: "God blesses those who are humble, for they will inherit the whole earth."

 

[Buka]

I see what you mean now. If the school is run much like a temple (which I've heard of) then yeah, it wouldn't be for me. But I went to religious schools as a kid, catholic for a year and lutheran for two. I'm not religious but had no issues politely bowing my head for prayer or attending devotions every Wednesday morning. I still learned history, algebra, and language arts. How would this be any different?

I grew up in Boston in the sixties. All the kids that went to Parochial schools were the craziest kids we ever knew.

When they finished school each day they were absolute madmen.

Did you experience that where you were, Steve?

 

[Steve]

I grew up in Boston in the sixties. All the kids that went to Parochial schools were the craziest kids we ever knew.

When they finished school each day they were absolute madmen.

Did you experience that where you were, Steve?

Not really. There were a few of us who smoked cigarettes and weed, but nothing too crazy. The crazy was at garfield where I went to high school.

 

[oftheherd11]

is french derived in whole ir part from greek or latin, both use the term ma for female,

Somebody may have comment on this later from your post, but French is from the latin family of languages, just as Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and several others.

 

[jobo]

Somebody may have comment on this later from your post, but French is from the latin family of languages, just as Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and several others.

so that would make me correct then

 

[jobo]

Matthew 5:5, NLT: "God blesses those who are humble, for they will inherit the whole earth."

thats sounds like a fake promises , when is this supposed to happen, ? its close to three million years the humble have been waiting , he may move in mysterious ways, but obviously not very quickly, do you think he may manqge it before the,sun swallows the earth, it not much use after

 

[oftheherd11]

so that would make me correct then

In that, yes.

 

[dvcochran]

thats sounds like a fake promises , when is this supposed to happen, ? its close to three million years the humble have been waiting , he may move in mysterious ways, but obviously not very quickly, do you think he may manqge it before the,sun swallows the earth, it not much use after

Blank post.

I had written something but did not want to get it censored. I will just say your 'earth' is the key word in the verse.

 

[Ivan]

I wonder if this is different in ITF TK-D or in USA in general. As an Englishman, I think we use Sir very rarely (teachers at secondary school) and Ma'am almost never (the Queen or another member of the royal family is probably the only people I could think I'd use it to).

I use people's English Taekwondo titles when referring to them (I'll still often refer to you as GM Weiss here, even though we've been talking online for many years) and I'll happily use the Korean titles when speaking in Korean, but calling people Sir all the time feels very American to me.

While I agree that ITF TK-D has deep military roots (my Kwan didn't come from the military), it also came from the Korean military specifically, where as I understand it they also don't have a sir/ma'am equivalent - in Korean culture they use full titles + "nim" a LOT! So again, that feels like American values and practices applied over a Korean martial art.

Just my opinion though.

My club always addresses superiors as Sir or Ma'am. I never realised this might be why. Our instructors came from ITF but altered the curriculum slightly for the club (specifically some of the forms).