Addressing people.

[_Simon_]

Very few elite level athletes get there by believing they're only pretty good.

Don't get me wrong. I think humility is a laudable trait, but arrogant people learn new things all the time. In fact, I could be argued that at some point, too much humility can be as limiting to development as too little humility.

Yeah for sure, I think it may come down to what we define humility as, or what context it's applied. I don't mean humility as in self-deprecating beliefs, but as a realization that I of myself don't know everything, and I am willing and open to learn.

Definitely excessive humility is quite stifling ("ohh I don't know aaaaanythiiiing.."). And of course arrogant folk can learn. BUT there has to be a degree of humility for you to be willing to learn I'd say. To be willing to learn is to admit that I haven't perfected something, I haven't learned everything. To me, humility is not a belief that "I'm horrible at life, I'm incapable" etc etc, but an attitude of stepping back, lowering any self-inflation to put you in a better position to be receptive to life and learning.

I think it depends on if a person's errr.. persona as a GENERALITY is arrogant, but can display humility within the context of learning something they want to pursue is maybe the point of distinction here. I certainly am not decreeing the meaning of any of these, just trying to flesh it out a bit maybe; it seems as though it (arrogance/humility) could be an "overall personality trait", or a trait to employ through the use of learning, or to aid/hinder certain specific situations....

As for believing it's a trait that can't be learned that's fair enough, I do get what you mean. We'll have to agree to disagree there, I feel it may get into the nature vs nurture debate which I will step aside there XD.

Things like respect, humility etc are only available to those willing to drop any obstacles to that. Sometimes it certainly does take really life altering events for sure!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Very few elite level athletes get there by believing they're only pretty good.

Don't get me wrong. I think humility is a laudable trait, but arrogant people learn new things all the time. In fact, I could be argued that at some point, too much humility can be as limiting to development as too little humility.

You and I must be defining arrogance differently. If someone is arrogant about their punching, they don't see there's anything new this person (whoever they are) can teach them about it. So they don't learn. They may have some general arrogance, but have a more open mind (and some humility) about their technique, so perhaps that's what your'e talking about.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That hasn't been my experience. Or I should say it's rare in adults. It's like cultivating empathy in an adult, or integrity. And it's only possible if the person is coachable and receptive to feedback.

We may just disagree, though, because I think traits are pretty well ingrained. Changing them generally requires some life altering event.

It's rare that someone will change if they're highly arrogant - that's true. And yes, they'd have to be somewhat receptive to feedback to change. Some folks become more arrogant under stress, so it fluctuates. I think personality types (which are thought to be hard-wired in brain development) tend more toward arrogance than others, and that tendency can't be changed. But the expressed (and felt) level can be. Arrogance is an over-extension of personality traits, in many cases.

As you say, if they're not interested in changing, they won't. But I think that's true of almost anything. As for the habit of arrogance being more changeable among kids, I think that's why things like credos and oaths are more common in schools focused on them. Personally, I'm not interested in dealing with someone who's arrogant, and I doubt I'm the right person to help them change that, so they just won't want to train with me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

you don't become more humble by talking about humility.

No. That doesn't really have much to do with what I said, though. If someone isn't interested in peace, why go to a school that promotes peace? If someone doesn't have an interest in kicks, why train TKD? If they don't have an interest in becoming more humble, why train somewhere that espouses humility as a laudable trait?

 

[Earl Weiss]

No. That doesn't really have much to do with what I said, though. If someone isn't interested in peace, why go to a school that promotes peace? If someone doesn't have an interest in kicks, why train TKD? If they don't have an interest in becoming more humble, why train somewhere that espouses humility as a laudable trait?

This doesn't apply to the particular elements stated, but if I choose to train somewhere it may be because there are certain elements I think they excel at and can help me with. That does not mean I have to accept everything they espouse.

 

[dvcochran]

I would say humility is a pretty essential precursor to learning (and continued learning), on some level.

It's not like you get punished if you fall short haha. But it's what the style entails, and it's actually a really nice emphasis.

If you don't agree with an important aspect of a place, probably don't train there. If you don't like the bowing either, well, it probably won't suit you either.

One of the simplest lessons in MA is bowing. And one of the toughest for some people.

 

[dvcochran]

buy as steve said above, humility inst a learnt skill, its a personality trait and not really a very good one its no better or worse than an abundance of arrogance, though it may actually be worse, some people have a lot to be humble about, so they find it easy

if you know your superior to every one else its very difficult to even fake it, but i try some times, but even then it gets perceived as condescending, by humble people, but no one cares much what humble people think, have you noticed the similarities between humility and humiliated, thats not a coincidence

is it a condition of learning ? im trying to think how many successful people have a good deal of humility,,,, EEEER,,, no not getting anything

Matthew 5:5.

 

[dvcochran]

That hasn't been my experience. Or I should say it's rare in adults. It's like cultivating empathy in an adult, or integrity. And it's only possible if the person is coachable and receptive to feedback.

We may just disagree, though, because I think traits are pretty well ingrained. Changing them generally requires some life altering event.

My experience is quite the opposite. In the nearly 40 years of teaching MA's nationwide I have seen a Lot of arrogance washed out and humility added in to people of all walks of life. And this is not specific to any one type of personality.
The most dramatic changes I have seen is people transforming from being shy, timid, or bashful, to humble. It is definitely easier for a confident to engrain/improve humility. Low self esteem is tough.

A hard concept for some people to understand is that there is never any shame when being humble. These two emotions and physical expressions are often confused.
You can be proud and humble. You can be overtly passionate and humble. In narrow circumstances you can even be aggressive and humble.

The kind of thinking that @Steve is expressing is becoming frightfully more common in MA's. Styles/sports like MMA and their overt philosophy (or lack thereof) of pushing the agenda that the "body, mind, spirit" ideology in most older MA's is crap. It is sometimes shocking how deep and far away from center this is carried.
With certainty, a sound martial arts program will engrain qualities like humility into a person. The time it takes to engrain these qualities is different for everyone because of all the human conditions one can think of to list.

Humility and confidence are much closer bedfellows than you think.

 

[dvcochran]

That hasn't been my experience. Or I should say it's rare in adults. It's like cultivating empathy in an adult, or integrity. And it's only possible if the person is coachable and receptive to feedback.

We may just disagree, though, because I think traits are pretty well ingrained. Changing them generally requires some life altering event.

I would come very close to saying empathy and integrity are opposing when it comes to 'learning' them. A persons life circumstances or culture affect overt empathy I think. But I believe it to be a mostly born in trait so while they may not express empathy overtly I believe they still feel it.
Integrity is as much a taught quality as anything else. If a person is raised up learning, witnessing, and being in and around integrity, it will dictate their actions throughout life.

All this emotional/character stuff we are talking about. Is any of this 100% all of the time? Absolutely not.

 

[Steve]

Yeah for sure, I think it may come down to what we define humility as, or what context it's applied. I don't mean humility as in self-deprecating beliefs, but as a realization that I of myself don't know everything, and I am willing and open to learn.

Definitely excessive humility is quite stifling ("ohh I don't know aaaaanythiiiing.."). And of course arrogant folk can learn. BUT there has to be a degree of humility for you to be willing to learn I'd say. To be willing to learn is to admit that I haven't perfected something, I haven't learned everything. To me, humility is not a belief that "I'm horrible at life, I'm incapable" etc etc, but an attitude of stepping back, lowering any self-inflation to put you in a better position to be receptive to life and learning.

I think it depends on if a person's errr.. persona as a GENERALITY is arrogant, but can display humility within the context of learning something they want to pursue is maybe the point of distinction here. I certainly am not decreeing the meaning of any of these, just trying to flesh it out a bit maybe; it seems as though it (arrogance/humility) could be an "overall personality trait", or a trait to employ through the use of learning, or to aid/hinder certain specific situations....

As for believing it's a trait that can't be learned that's fair enough, I do get what you mean. We'll have to agree to disagree there, I feel it may get into the nature vs nurture debate which I will step aside there XD.

Things like respect, humility etc are only available to those willing to drop any obstacles to that. Sometimes it certainly does take really life altering events for sure!

Great post. It's very contextual. Some very arrogant people will humble themselves within a particular context.

And to be clear, traits can be encouraged and evolve. They are just much more reliant on the person's willingness to change them, which is often only the case if they are experiencing some life changing event.

But either way, folks can learn without humility, though it can certainly limit progress.

 

[Steve]

You and I must be defining arrogance differently. If someone is arrogant about their punching, they don't see there's anything new this person (whoever they are) can teach them about it. So they don't learn. They may have some general arrogance, but have a more open mind (and some humility) about their technique, so perhaps that's what your'e talking about.

I think that's just overconfidence.

 

[Steve]

It's rare that someone will change if they're highly arrogant - that's true. And yes, they'd have to be somewhat receptive to feedback to change. Some folks become more arrogant under stress, so it fluctuates. I think personality types (which are thought to be hard-wired in brain development) tend more toward arrogance than others, and that tendency can't be changed. But the expressed (and felt) level can be. Arrogance is an over-extension of personality traits, in many cases.

As you say, if they're not interested in changing, they won't. But I think that's true of almost anything. As for the habit of arrogance being more changeable among kids, I think that's why things like credos and oaths are more common in schools focused on them. Personally, I'm not interested in dealing with someone who's arrogant, and I doubt I'm the right person to help them change that, so they just won't want to train with me.

For sure, people react differently under stress.

Regarding arrogant folks, I agree. I ignore a couple folks here for that very reason.

 

[Steve]

No. That doesn't really have much to do with what I said, though. If someone isn't interested in peace, why go to a school that promotes peace? If someone doesn't have an interest in kicks, why train TKD? If they don't have an interest in becoming more humble, why train somewhere that espouses humility as a laudable trait?

I see what you mean now. If the school is run much like a temple (which I've heard of) then yeah, it wouldn't be for me. But I went to religious schools as a kid, catholic for a year and lutheran for two. I'm not religious but had no issues politely bowing my head for prayer or attending devotions every Wednesday morning. I still learned history, algebra, and language arts. How would this be any different?

 

[Steve]

Just to clarify my point because I'm worried it's being lost in translation. Humility is a trait, and like all core traits and values, it takes two things for them to change. First, an openness to it, and second, a catalyst for it (i.e, a significant life event). I've seen a lot of guys experience this in BJJ and they don't last long if they aren't willing to change.

 

[Hanshi]

I've always referred to my own abilities as merely "average", "adequate" and never as "good". Usually in my own dojo or around my (and other's) students, the various titles of sensei, hanshi, grandmaster, sir and sometimes even simply my name is used; and I'm okay with anything as long as it's okay for children to hear. Often in social situations I'm addressed with a title. But in my view titles appropriate for the dojo have no need to be used OUTSIDE the dojo. In a high ranking teacher's (and very dear friend's) dojo where I last trained along with the students I, like his students, addressed him as "sir" even though we were the same rank. Outside the dojo I addressed with his first name. It varies from dojang to dojang and teacher to teacher, but it doesn't feel right for a teacher to require students to use a title for addressing him/her. If the style/art/founder has the tradition of using titles, that would be the notable exception.

I know of some dojo/teachers who address the students as "sir" and I think it's a nice tradition.

 

[dvcochran]

I would come very close to saying empathy and integrity are opposing when it comes to 'learning' them. A persons life circumstances or culture affect overt empathy I think. But I believe it to be a mostly born in trait so while they may not express empathy overtly I believe they still feel it.
Integrity is as much a taught quality as anything else. If a person is raised up learning, witnessing, and being in and around integrity, it will dictate their actions throughout life.

All this emotional/character stuff we are talking about. Is any of this 100% all of the time? Absolutely not.

***EDIT***
After re-reading my post from yesterday I can certainly see where my last comment can be misunderstood.
To clarify, I meant all the emotional stuff is not consistent. In my opinion, character changes and sometimes even wanes for some people. But it is a basic trait which I believe we all have. What brings it out and how it is cultured/nurtured is different for everyone.
How 'loudly' it is seen in a person is also different for everyone.

 

[jobo]

***EDIT***
After re-reading my post from yesterday I can certainly see where my last comment can be misunderstood.
To clarify, I meant all the emotional stuff is not consistent. In my opinion, character changes and sometimes even wanes for some people. But it is a basic trait which I believe we all have. What brings it out and how it is cultured/nurtured is different for everyone.
How 'loudly' it is seen in a person is also different for everyone.

people are talkibg as uf beibg humble is a positive trait and humilating people, to teach them humility is good for them, thats largely the attitude of bullies, there are suruations were it can be handy, but you can fake it, you dont have to be it

ive been humbled a few times in my life,, that hasnt given me great humility, i just come back stronger, literally and figuratively, untill i get even

i was sat outside my coffee bar, when some old bloke shambled up, on two walking sticks, he made the mistake of introducibg himself and i realised he was one of the older kids at school.

so i took his sticks off him and broke them, thats what you get for stealing my lunch money in 1973, the look on his face when i handed the broken bits back was priceless

 

[Steve]

people are talkibg as uf beibg humble is a positive trait and humilating people, to teach them humility is good for them, thats largely the attitude of bullies, there are suruations were it can be handy, but you can fake it, you dont have to be it

ive been humbled a few times in my life,, that hasnt given me great humility, i just come back stronger, literally and figuratively, untill i get even

i was sat outside my coffee bar, when some old bloke shambled up, on two walking sticks, he made the mistake of introducibg himself and i realised he was one of the older kids at school.

so i took his sticks off him and broke them, thats what you get for stealing my lunch money in 1973, the look on his face when i handed the broken bits back was priceless

I believe you.

 

[jobo]

I believe you.

i spent all of my five years at high school trying not to get beaten up, and failing mostly i was very small as an early teen, and a big chunk of the next 5 tracking them down and extracting revenge, funny how they didnt want to fight when i was 6 inches bigger,, some let it lie if they begged, others that was not nearly enough

there is no expirary date on my grievances, once your in the grudge book your in for life, eventually il get them

that guy was three years older, much bigger, when he head butted me and took my money, he got of lightly

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This doesn't apply to the particular elements stated, but if I choose to train somewhere it may be because there are certain elements I think they excel at and can help me with. That does not mean I have to accept everything they espouse.

Agreed. I'm speaking of the principles placed so prominently (like kicking in TKD). If those are of no interest, why would the school be of much interest? In a theoretical situation, we might be able to conjure up a reason, but in reality there are so many options it's unlikely that would be a worthwhile decision most of the time.